360 rig

[Carpbell]

No offence intended fellas, it's not like I take any opening to list what I don't like in fishing, my thoughts on surface fishing I keep to myself and I fish waters that have banned surface fishing, apart from Kingsbury.
As I said on page 1, I have never used this rig.

[emmcee]

well im a user of the 360 rig and have never seen any mouth damage on the fish ive caught with it, no matter what size the fish are. infact id say 90% of my captures have been over an inch back in the mouth and dead centre, nailed. and i use the long shank nailers. i will admit i have used rigs that have caused mouth damage but its only been the once as i dont use them again.

[grangemilky]

100% of rigs i use cause mouth damage 

[salokcinnodrog]

Ok, there are some things that should be considered. The 360 rig has caused damage to fish, but it is in many cases that what is a big fish rig is used for small carp. An example of this is the Bent hook rig, widely advocated for big fish, and I used it for a few years. I don't remember causing any damage to fish, yet many did, but it was used almost everywhere, and some fishery managers and owners did see damage, and widespread publicity saw the long shank bent hooks banned.

 

The 360 rig may be the same. As it potentially damages fish my concern means I will not use it.

 

All of us should consider fish welfare, if you are an angler who just follows fashion, or articles, and don't actually think or concern yourself with trying to reduce risks and damage, then you shouldn't be fishing,

 

Be that leaders, lead core, bent hooks, 360 or even fixed leads, you need to think and work out the safety aspects; don't follow fashion, or a famous angler just because he says what he uses, not all are safe.

[hoorayhenri]

Like we went to the moon and travel at over 200 mph on two wheels..........

[newmarket]

But why does it cause damage?

You keep asking the question milky .

Every now and again this subject comes up on the forum.

Every now and again this subject comes up in magazines.

I HEAR and READ that the 360 rig causes horrific mouth damage in smaller carp.

 

I dont disbelieve any of it but it WOULD be nice to actually know why and have it explained in detail as to what these problems are instead of heresay after heresay .

 

I wouldnt use the rig for the same reason i wont use leadcore any more ...just in case .

 

Would be nice to hear or read some facts .

[ouchthathurt]

The 360 rig is sometimes pinned with mouth damage due to its mechanics, in the same way the long shank bent hook rig was in the 80-90s - indeed this rig was banned in many places. The long shank aspect used to "double hook" (hook through the lips multiple times, otherwise called stitching) and then tear in the carps mouth, the bent hook, if not bent correctly, would open and close at the point of bending kind of like an old fashioned can opener causing damage to the carp.

 

The fox series 5 - the first commercially available long shanked curved hook brought in to try and emulate the success of the bent hook rig. It was found that smaller, more frantic carp could "double hook" themselves which then tore, ripping the lips. The readon shrink tube became so popular was it allowed you to fish a "bent hook" which didnt cause the damage with the hook opening and closing like a can openerin the carps mouth this is why we bend and curve shrink tube, to emulate the bent hook rig.The link has been made between the longshanked aspect and the 360 rig, it has been said (by "them") that it can cause the double hooking which leads to mouth damage. The evidence is not exactly solid, in the case of the bent hook rig, the damage and its cause was obvious, and lots of lakes banned it. The 360 rig is used by many top anglers, mr dave lane being one of them, it is seen as a "big fish rig" mostly down to the fact it utilises a longshanked hook which can hook multiple times in a smaller carps mouth. It is also designed to be fished heavily weighted as opposed to critically balanced. The idea is that the pop up spins 360 degrees and hook in the bottom lip. The use of a longshank hook has always been linked to mouth damage to smaller carp. Whether its true or not? Well thats open to speculation, the old bent hook was brutal, but the 360 rig is well popular and well used, if it was as damaging as the old bent hook rig was, then we would know by now, its been out for years, i dont use it as its too much metal in/around the hook - plus the use of a longshank puts me off a bit, as i remember the mouth damage from the 1st longshank curved hooks and bent hook rigs. I havent seen the series 5 on sale for years, although fox do sell the armapoint LSC which look near as damn it identical.

 

[salokcinnodrog]

I wonder how much mouth damage from some of these rigs is down to bad unhooking?

 

I have no problems in cutting the hook, on the shank, just below the eye or as low as I can get, and then feeding the point through. The cut eye section will fall away with no problems. It is fiddling and faffing and forcing the hook free (with any rig) that can cause (additional) damage. Then dose up the hookmark, or marks with Klinik or similar hookpoint antiseptic treatment

 

 

I would much rather tie on a fresh hooklink, rig or hook, than expect to re-use the same one each time. 

 

Please don't get me wrong, I am very tight on hooks, and materials, if it is sharp enough, then to me it is good enough, but for the sake of NOT damaging a fish, I would far rather cut the hook or hooklink than be responsible for mouth damage.

A good pair of wire/side cutters is an important item to have in the tackle box for that very reason.

 

I think that it is long shank hooks that can be the cause of much mouth damage, especially in small fish, whatever pattern, Carp-R-Us Longshank Nailer, Fox Series 5, Ritchie MacDonald Z13 or PiggyBacks, whenever there is a chance of double hooking, and I think that many anglers are using fashionable rigs, without necessarily knowing or being able to think out the potential risks. It is not even their fault, but since Rob Maylin first published the Bent Hook Rig, it got used everywhere, and the same is true of the 360 rig. 

[Carpbell]

I see you can buy ready tied 360 rigs off the net, I’ll bet that's were most anglers are getting these rigs from. I have no problems with ready tied, but there probably is a reason why the big tackle companies only sell basic ready tied rigs. The ESP sink link rigs are great when you are starting out and money is a bit tight after buying rods and reels.

My only critic of the ESP rigs is they need a bit of shrink tube or a aligner on the eye of the hook. 

Edited April 19, 2014 by Carpbell

[liamclose]

If somebody just starting fishing they have to worry about buying hair rigs never mind 360 rigs. Imo if simebody aspires to be a decent carp angler they shouldnt be fishing for carp to begin with. They should be fishing for anything that comes along servig an apprentiship by cathing roach, tench bream and if you lucky you mite land a carp. Forget leadcore, and 360 rigs the most dangerous thing for a carp is an unexeprieced istant carp angler thats trying to run before they can walk.

Not only does an aprentiship give you expirience to handle fish properly it also teaches you water craft and that bait other than boilies can catch carp and that it isnt all about spods and chods. So many of the most importantant peices of the jigsaw in fishing are in basic coarse fishing. Rather than than putting the peices of jigsaw togeather by learning the basics they get sucked in to the comerercial world of free dvds and mags and takeing it as gospel in whats been said. If they had coarse fised they may realize its not about catching the latest ugly 50 on a magic wonder bait theres so much more to it. Rant over.

[Carpbell]

Seems as barbed hook removal has been brought up, I have to relate this funny little story about barbed hook removal.
Many years ago I was fishing the local canal, I was using big hooks for a canal, size 12 and 14 barbless, after a few other lads seen the bream and tench I was catching they started to fish the same as me, I told one lad to use a barbless as a barbed hook done to much damage to the bait.
So I’m out one day on the canal the same lad is fishing a couple of pegs down with his brother, all I herd was a scream, looked round the younger brother's nose was spurting blood, as his brother had cast out, the hook had gone up the other lads nose and snapped off, he had a trail of line and a few dust shot hanging down, anyway it was a hospital job and the nurse had to push the hook right through and cut the barbed point off, lol, she gave him a telling off for using barbed hooks, sounds like her hubby or some one was into fishing as she knew what she was talking about.

The  lad now has a scar that looks like some one put the tip of a knife into his nose hole and pulled it forward.... Savage.

[liamclose]

Seems as barbed hook removal has been brought up, I have to relate this funny little story about barbed hook removal.

Many years ago I was fishing the local canal, I was using big hooks for a canal, size 12 and 14 barbless, after a few other lads seen the bream and tench I was catching they started to fish the same as me, I told one lad to use a barbless as a barbed hook done to much damage to the bait.

So I’m out one day on the canal the same lad is fishing a couple of pegs down with his brother, all I herd was a scream, looked round the younger brother's nose was spurting blood, as his brother had cast out, the hook had gone up the other lads nose and snapped off, he had a trail of line and a few dust shot hanging down, anyway it was a hospital job and the nurse had to push the hook right through and cut the barbed point off, lol, she gave him a telling off for using barbed hooks, sounds like her hubby or some one was into fishing as she knew what she was talking about.

The lad now has a scar that looks like some one put the tip of a knife into his nose hole and pulled it forward.... Savage.

What does that prove hooks arent meant to go up peoples noses. Its like saying a rapped a snooker cue round someboys head and its the cues fault for been made of wood. Lots of things are savage if not used correctly.

[Carpbell]

What does that prove hooks arent meant to go up peoples noses. Its like saying a rapped a snooker cue round someboys head and its the cues fault for been made of wood. Lots of things are savage if not used correctly.

It's not meant to prove anything, just me shooting the breeze, go and get some breakfast down you and slow down a bit.

[liamclose]

Ah I see thought you were blameing the hook. My apologies. Think mite go and grab dat brekfast.lol.

[grangemilky]

 

Seems as barbed hook removal has been brought up, I have to relate this funny little story about barbed hook removal.

Many years ago I was fishing the local canal, I was using big hooks for a canal, size 12 and 14 barbless, after a few other lads seen the bream and tench I was catching they started to fish the same as me, I told one lad to use a barbless as a barbed hook done to much damage to the bait.

So I’m out one day on the canal the same lad is fishing a couple of pegs down with his brother, all I herd was a scream, looked round the younger brother's nose was spurting blood, as his brother had cast out, the hook had gone up the other lads nose and snapped off, he had a trail of line and a few dust shot hanging down, anyway it was a hospital job and the nurse had to push the hook right through and cut the barbed point off, lol, she gave him a telling off for using barbed hooks, sounds like her hubby or some one was into fishing as she knew what she was talking about.

 

 

 

When i was a young lad, we cycled 4 miles to the local drain, with our beach caster rods, coupled up with very miss matched Michel 300 reels, bright blue 30lb line and a box of rusty spinners. First cast my mate put a rusty treble through his ear Crushed the and pulled it back out. No infection!

[salokcinnodrog]

When i was a young lad, we cycled 4 miles to the local drain, with our beach caster rods, coupled up with very miss matched Michel 300 reels, bright blue 30lb line and a box of rusty spinners. First cast my mate put a rusty treble through his ear Crushed the and pulled it back out. No infection!

And had a good pike next cast?

[ouchthathurt]

Rob maylin also outlined the dangers of the bent hook rig in print too, once they became known. The 360 rig is attributed to dave lane who stated it was a "big fish" rig where the likelyhood of doublehooking/stitching the hook is less likely. Some mouth damage will be down to poor unhooking, refusal to cut the hook if required (or even not being aware this is an option, how many people truthfully think to snip a hook?) also using the 360 rig out of the context to which it was origionally designed. I think that its use on smaller fish, high stock runs waters (for which it wasnt designed) is another reason why mouth damage may be encountered. Personally i think there are other pop up rigs out there that are just as effective.

 

[Gaz]

thanks for being better at putting finger to keyboard OUCH, now your so much better at explaining things than me its gone very quiet lol. hopefully people will reloook at this hook on club/day ticket waters and only think of using it on big fish waters, or maybe not at all

[ouchthathurt]

No dramas!

 

[nealjt]

Very well explained Ouchthathurt, thank you! Makes sense to me now, for years (literally) I've not known why and how a bent hook will cause damage and couldn't understand how double hooking could happen!

The fish safety talk always makes me cringe a little, as it is a total juxtaposition ( long word, oh yeah, probably spelt wrong) having tempted a fish with the most attractive meal I can make I force a ridiculously sharp object into its mouth and drag it out of its environment effectively suffocating it just to take a picture and try again to get the rest of its family.... Although I am aware the fish can't appreciate what I do I will try to minimise any long term impact.

 

I went to my local lake which I adore, small tree lined, not any anglers and even less carp! The trees over hang quite far and there is currently a dead duck decomposing on one of the over hangs as it took a liking to a rig that was snapped off in the tree with its bait attached.... This is a horrible sight and would break my heart if it was a carp that had been snagged up like this. And for this reason I stay away from rigs and methods that carry the myths and rumors of harming fish, even though a lot of time I can't understand the potential for damage.

 

So for me having read your explanation of the bent hook issue and if this may be a similar problem for the 360 I will stay away from using it. I'm not a big fish angler, but I complicate anything I can so rigs with lots of swivels, whistles & bells catch my attention.

 

I think tackle company's and magazines should take more responsibility and give clear instructions on the specifics of the kit they sell and the difference between rigs for big carp and rigs for smaller standard size carp..... (Ok essay over, now back to just hitting the like button)

[newmarket]

Very well explained Ouchthathurt, thank you! Makes sense to me now, for years (literally) I've not known why and how a bent hook will cause damage and couldn't understand how double hooking could happen!

The fish safety talk always makes me cringe a little, as it is a total juxtaposition ( long word, oh yeah, probably spelt wrong) having tempted a fish with the most attractive meal I can make I force a ridiculously sharp object into its mouth and drag it out of its environment effectively suffocating it just to take a picture and try again to get the rest of its family.... Although I am aware the fish can't appreciate what I do I will try to minimise any long term impact.

I went to my local lake which I adore, small tree lined, not any anglers and even less carp! The trees over hang quite far and there is currently a dead duck decomposing on one of the over hangs as it took a liking to a rig that was snapped off in the tree with its bait attached.... This is a horrible sight and would break my heart if it was a carp that had been snagged up like this. And for this reason I stay away from rigs and methods that carry the myths and rumors of harming fish, even though a lot of time I can't understand the potential for damage.

So for me having read your explanation of the bent hook issue and if this may be a similar problem for the 360 I will stay away from using it. I'm not a big fish angler, but I complicate anything I can so rigs with lots of swivels, whistles & bells catch my attention.

I think tackle company's and magazines should take more responsibility and give clear instructions on the specifics of the kit they sell and the difference between rigs for big carp and rigs for smaller standard size carp..... (Ok essay over, now back to just hitting the like button)

Yes ouch very well explained.

How do i tie one ?

[ouchthathurt]

The business end of the 360 ( degree) rig. (thank you fox international for the pic!) Just tie a braided hookling to the swivel ring. Gotta be a longer than average hooklink, does not work as well with short links. Personally, if i want to fish a longshanked pop up presentation, i would use the half withy rig, as it was designed to emulate the longshanked aspects but with a shortshanked hook. The hook spins in a similar fashion as the 360 rig when the curved tubing touches the lip, it spins and places the hook hopefully in the bottom lip, which is the same mechanics you are relying on with the 360 rig. As the curved longshank comes in contact with the bottom lip, with the swivel, the hook should spin 360 degrees (hence the name!) and hook in the lip.

 

[Carpbell]

I'm no rig mechanic the most technical rig I use is a snake bite combi, but there are other rigs that give a 360 turn, there is a hinged stiff rig made from two pieces of fluro and a swivel at the join, the bit I don't like about this 360 rig is the swivel on the hook? Just looks like too much metal and aggressive?

[nigewoodcock]

I'm no rig mechanic the most technical rig I use is a snake bite combi, but there are other rigs that give a 360 turn, there is a hinged stiff rig made from two pieces of fluro and a swivel at the join, the bit I don't like about this 360 rig is the swivel on the hook? Just looks like too much metal and aggressive?

Same amount if metal as the hinged stiff rig you describe!

[ouchthathurt]

There is a bit of metalwork, it is a proven rig but it needs to be used for its correct application, IE "big fish" angling. Basically, its not designed for commercials or runs waters where the average size of carp is not too small, for reasons previously mentioned. Although i have seen it "advertised" as a usual pva bag rig which would suggest that it will end up on the nearest commercial where a poor little 3lb carp will stitch itself up royally on it. The Whithy pool rig, this spins on contact as well, and has the benefits of longshanked hooks with less risk of damage. As the tubing straightens out during the fight. Its a bit of a rig to get your head around visually, it was invented by steve renyard to combat the super riggy carp at withy pool that were mouthing the baits. this is my basic pop up rig that i use all the time. the bait blows back along the shank on ejection, i have used the small bait big hook principle for years having caught many carp on it. 35lb Pb. 28lb 21lb 22lb.

The most simple pop up rig here, yet had lots of 20-30's on my rig, and never felt the need to complicate it further, after all, the correct application of bait in the right swim for the prevailing conditions is far more important than some fancy over complicated rig. The most fancy all singing all dancing rig still wont catch a carp thats not there! Get the location right before worrying about "advanced" rigs, the most consistant "big fish" anglers use real simple rigs and put watercraft and location forefront in their minds.