salokcinnodrog

I'm not sure I agree, as I have seen fresh baits left in (heavily fished) areas, and fresh baits eaten in  areas where the carp don't think they are being fished for. At Taverham, I spent a lot of time on the water over 10 years, and you could see the fish leave baits in those heavily fished spots, until they had been in the water for a couple of days, at which point they would start clearing them up. The same with the local river, carp would leave sweetcorn on a particular spot until it had started to go grey, they would swim past it, pause, and then only after a couple of days would they come in to eat it. A couple of mates and I spent a fair amount of time there walking the whole stretch, and there is no way, as the carp could swim the whole stretch in the time we walked it (and did almost every day in summer), that we wouldn't see them, so observation was pretty easy. Strangely enough, we didn't see the bream and the tench there, but we knew that they were about as they were often the first fish into particular spots when we fished. The carp would also avoid particular features, one being a gravel bank that rose up from the river bed.
 
On the occasions I have left hookbaits in the water for a few days, it is often the bigger fish from a water that take it. That is I have spotted larger fish in the spot, and watched them 'control' the area, making smaller fish avoid the spot or area, and then take the hookbait after a couple of days, when my apparent danger is nil (not many anglers leave a bait out for so long without recasting).
 
I'm sure I am not the only person who has noticed this as Ken Townley wrote about it, and it is a tactic that Albert Romp employed in the past.

I've let this ride, and not said anything about the topic, although I had thoughts, but was trying to marshal them into some sort of order so I could say what I think.
 
Washed out baits may work on a couple of levels;
The bait has been in the water for a couple of days, so it is safe to eat and not a pressure point that the carp feel they are eating freshly put in bait. If the pressure is so high that they don't eat baits that haven't been in the water a couple of day, then older 'washed out' baits may be the ones that are safe. It may also be that they would eat fresh baits if the amount of bait going in was enough so that they felt safe, whereas, they are leaving the new baits as they simply aren't safe.
 
It may also be that fresh baits could possibly be overloaded with flavours, and at introduction levels are so high that they repel!
 
I used to feel that on many high pressure weekend syndrome lakes, the fish do leave the baits introduced on Friday until Sunday at the earliest, and those that catch are those that are using washed out baits, small stringers, or even single hookbaits, different from those fishing over the large amount of spodded baits. 
 
If you prebait with enough bait that the carp are comfortable eating it, then I don't think that washed out baits are an advantage, and for my weekend trips, I do try to be different from the 'norm'. However, I do also think that fresh baits can be a danger to fish, and so I often use an older hookbait. I may start the trip with a hookbait, and use that same hookbait for a couple of days if it doesn't get pulled off the hair (fish or deterioration, which can be reduced by meshing hookbait ). I also bait up with fresh baits as my freebies. The hookbait is 'safe', the freebies are fresh and dangerous, the hookbait catches 'em.
 
Also it can be worth leaving a bait in place for a couple of days, again, you have to have confidence that it will stay on the hook/hair.
 
A few years ago, this washed out bait thing, I watched the carp ignoring sweetcorn that was fresh, until it had started to go a bit grey after a couple of days. The tench and the bream would eat it fresh (until a few were caught on it), and then they would avoid the area for a few days, (tench especially), but for the carp to take sweetcorn, it had to have been introduced a couple of days previously.
 
My main belief is simply that baits get left over a weekend, due to weekend syndrome, and a washed out bait may be better, but if fishing normally (midweek), pre-bait as much as possible, and you shouldn't need a washed out bait, except at the weekend when the pressure is usually highest

I'm not sure I agree, as I have seen fresh baits left in (heavily fished) areas, and fresh baits eaten in  areas where the carp don't think they are being fished for. At Taverham, I spent a lot of time on the water over 10 years, and you could see the fish leave baits in those heavily fished spots, until they had been in the water for a couple of days, at which point they would start clearing them up. The same with the local river, carp would leave sweetcorn on a particular spot until it had started to go grey, they would swim past it, pause, and then only after a couple of days would they come in to eat it. A couple of mates and I spent a fair amount of time there walking the whole stretch, and there is no way, as the carp could swim the whole stretch in the time we walked it (and did almost every day in summer), that we wouldn't see them, so observation was pretty easy. Strangely enough, we didn't see the bream and the tench there, but we knew that they were about as they were often the first fish into particular spots when we fished. The carp would also avoid particular features, one being a gravel bank that rose up from the river bed.
 
On the occasions I have left hookbaits in the water for a few days, it is often the bigger fish from a water that take it. That is I have spotted larger fish in the spot, and watched them 'control' the area, making smaller fish avoid the spot or area, and then take the hookbait after a couple of days, when my apparent danger is nil (not many anglers leave a bait out for so long without recasting).
 
I'm sure I am not the only person who has noticed this as Ken Townley wrote about it, and it is a tactic that Albert Romp employed in the past.

Won't shout, but I'll try to explain:
 
Braid can be damaging and cutting as the line is under tension. In fact many braids are often the same material as leadcore, but the lead is wrapped in a sheath. As braid is thinner, and often made incorporating Kevlar (capital K due to tradename I think), it will cut the fish, unless covered with tubing, or fitted with a 'safer'(*) leader. In fact many fisheries stipulate this. Braid can catch and cut as the fish swims. These mainline braids are NOT the same as hooklink braids, but even some hooklink braids in finer (breaking) strains can cut, which is often why we use breaking strains often heavier than our mainline.
 
Mono filament, tends to slide over the fish. I have not seen a line cut from mono, although it is possible that a scale may be dislodged, I imagine on a scaley mirror. Mono does not dig in. You don't often use tubing when you are floater fishing, fishing zigs, and in my case often at all. Tubing was christened ANTI-TANGLE tubing, and was used to prevent tangles between hooklink and mainline
 
 
 
*'Safer' Leader being a relative term

Mainline braids often have additional 'ingredients' like Kevlar added to make them more tougher, and can actually be more abrasive or cutting along the fishes flanks than a softer hooklink braid, although there are a couple of hooklink braids that I avoid as they are so darn 'sharp'.
 
For hooklinks I would only ever use a specific hooklink braid, and I haven't come away from the Kryston stable for them for years; If it ain't broke don't fix it, and Kryston has not let me down. They may be more expensive than other manufacturers, but when a spool of Merlin lasts 4 or 5 years (and I do tie a lot of rigs), and can be used neat or as part of a combi-rig, then I stick to what I know works. The only Kryston coated braid I don't feel comfortable with, is actually Jackal. I found, (me personally), that I was breaking the coating when I tied my knots, and so they would go a bit limp as the coating was damaged.
 
As for coated braids, they are stiffer until you strip them, which can improve resistance to abrasion, cutting and rubbing against snags etc, and possibly for the carp. 
 
 
 
When it comes to braids, we use higher breaking strains than the mainline, simply because some are so thin that if used in lower strains and diameters, would cut the fishes mouth, so using the finest may not always be best.

Is there a simple way to shorten the hair once the rig is tied other than the obvious of tying a new rig or doing in the right length to start with?

Mainline braids often have additional 'ingredients' like Kevlar added to make them more tougher, and can actually be more abrasive or cutting along the fishes flanks than a softer hooklink braid, although there are a couple of hooklink braids that I avoid as they are so darn 'sharp'.
 
For hooklinks I would only ever use a specific hooklink braid, and I haven't come away from the Kryston stable for them for years; If it ain't broke don't fix it, and Kryston has not let me down. They may be more expensive than other manufacturers, but when a spool of Merlin lasts 4 or 5 years (and I do tie a lot of rigs), and can be used neat or as part of a combi-rig, then I stick to what I know works. The only Kryston coated braid I don't feel comfortable with, is actually Jackal. I found, (me personally), that I was breaking the coating when I tied my knots, and so they would go a bit limp as the coating was damaged.
 
As for coated braids, they are stiffer until you strip them, which can improve resistance to abrasion, cutting and rubbing against snags etc, and possibly for the carp. 
 
 
 
When it comes to braids, we use higher breaking strains than the mainline, simply because some are so thin that if used in lower strains and diameters, would cut the fishes mouth, so using the finest may not always be best.

Seems like you've been really working at it Andy , and beginning to reap the rewards too by the sounds of it .
 
Miles better than drifting from venue to venue wondering why your not catching ...
 
A few could do with taking a leaf out of YOUR book mate

Cor Yeah !

Amen to that!!!

There's some massive perch in there! Stick to the worms and target them - that's what I would be doing on there!! No bream in there from what I know, but he has stocked chub into it?????
Big perch, big perch, big perch!!!!!!!

Frogy....I'm still learning but the hair rig was one of the major step forwards in carp fishing due to the seperation it allowed between hook and bait. So from what I understand having a long hair allows better seperation and makes it more difficult to eject as hook and bait are acting more independently. As a carp tried to blow the bait back out having a good degree of seperation will allow the hook to drop into the bottom of the carps mouth as it tried to blow the bait back out.
 
Popups are different and I fish tight to the shank.
 
I tend to use longish hairs with some form of pva to prevent tangling.
 

 

I dont agree that tubing is pointless with a size 8 hook i believe it is down to the hook pattern . I'd use it on a size 12 if i thought it might improve the hooking potential .
Also , for what its worth , i dont believe in that palm test ( or thumbnail test for that matter ) .
Hooklength behavior underwater cannot be the same as on your hand .
 
Mind you thats what forums are for , to air differing opinions .
 
Lets see how the thread develops si .
 
Cant understand why your mate would say your hairs are too short and yet offer no explanation or solution ?

Excellent ! :)
 
Strangely enough mr Read is one of the few pro/sponsored anglers that i've got a lot of time for .
He puts your gear over really well and doesnt appear to be up his own ( so to speak ) unlike a lot of others i could mention .
 
I think i'd hang on to hom
 
Ok crawling session over ....

"replaced out of my own pocket".......shock horror!!......this must be very distressing Nick!!!........... :wink: LOL.
 PM me with the dia and BS you need,-----(we,re out of .35mm for 2 weeks.)
 cant have you using year old line :roll:.    all the best    RG

I had a little chat with Ali Hamidi, via twitter, about this product. He was quick to state that it's just like using a lead clip and that fish trail line regularly (doesn't really answer how that's safe). I then mentioned the fashion of using leadcore with helicopter set ups and my fears of fish trailing long lengths of the stuff, to which he replied "never use more than 2ft of leadcore. None of us do". I think the "None of us do" remark meant the Korda team, which is clearly false as Danny Fairbrass has a video on the Korda site of him using a six foot length of leadcore for a chod rig and the packaging of Kable (Korda's leadcore) recommends five feet! I replied stating this and Mr Hamidi hasn't responded since.

oh thats ok then,i thought "soon he will be giving it a lift out on a bait boat" as apposed to being cruel and chucking it out

Nah mate that'll be smufter

Well some of the Korda stuff can be a little delicate shall we say

Re john roberts terminal tackle . Not only is it not fashionable its usually cheap as a result .
And , imo , often the best for the job at hand .
 
My tackle box has plenty of it

It is not just the money from ejecting the lead on every take, but litter.
 
If you walked down the road, and every 100metres or so you threw a lead away it would be classed as littering. Now equate that to fishing, every time you lose eject a lead on the take you are effectively littering the lakebed. It is not just the lead you are ejecting either, it is a plastic coating, usually a copper insert for the loop and a swivel which is some other metal, or for just an inline, the plastic coating and insert, which are elements which do NOT break down in the environment in a hurry.
 
 
Years ago, when my leads were dead, bashed, cratered, pitted etc, and beyond even marker rod use, I would give them to a friend of mine. He would then melt them down, and then use the lead for new leads. The copper insert would go into our copper pile for scrap and melting down.
 
Effectively, our green and pleasant society has forgotten how to recycle, despite the various coloured nice big bins we have. Glass bottles, deposit for the children to take back to the local shop, or milk bottles every day, cleaned, re-used recycled. Tin foil, taken to the local shop, and a payment made for the amount (and the occasional stone when we wanted to bilk, sorry bulk out    )
 
This 'fad' for apparent rig safety and ejecting the lead is simply that, a fad, as tackle manufacturers have discovered that they need to make money, and more (and more and more) tackle manufacturers mean the slices of cake that they eat are getting smaller. Rig safety is not rig safety as it stands any more, many many items of tackle are sold which are dangerous to the fish (don't give me that sticking hooks thingy argument), ready made leadcore leaders in inline and pendant set-ups, even helicopter ones. They are sold, not because they are safe, but because tackle manufacturers have discovered a market for people who will buy them. They may be the least dangerous available, or properly manufactured, but are not fish friendly in the event of a crack off. It is not just one manufacturer, sorry, it is many, in fact just about any tackle manufacturer sells a ready made system.
 
As I said in my previous post, all you need is a lead attached to the line, preferably on a John Roberts Lead attachment , a swivel or quick link and your hooklink and hook at the end of it.
 
The original innovator I think was John Roberts, many tackle manufacturers have ideas copied from him, but these items from his brand are not fashionable at the moment, but are often the best for tackle.
 
Just look at this page of John Roberts tackle, the tackle shop chosen was picked totally at random, so sorry to any other shop:
 http://www.thetackle-shop.co.uk/section121/John-Roberts-Products.html
 
Items that will work now as they did 20+ years ago, and many better than some of the more modern names.

Korda originally used the term  'Safe Zone' I think it was; not as safe in terms of angler use, but 'safe' for the fish to feed in the area, i.e. the tackle was camouflaged, hidden or difficult to see. It did not in any way make it safe for the angler to use it, and some of the products (leaders etc), made it not at all safe in terms of breakages, the risk of fish towing leads around and the potential for tethered fish. 
 
Having recovered a snapped off Safezone leader, attached to many metres of line, with a plastic bait on the end, and a lead that would not release all jammed up with weed, it definitely does not make it safe!
 
As others have said, my view is that using helicopters, you need the lead on the end of a leader system, so that the leader does not fold in the middle preventing the rig being ejected at all. A Heli-safe system will only be safe if not using a leader, but cannot be used where there is any snag, weed or anything that could catch up on the line, andf the rig must be able to be ejected.
 
Again, I do NOT like ejecting the lead, unless I absolutely have to, to prevent a fish becoming snagged up. In most cases I don't need to drop the lead on the take, and even in weed, using an inline lead there is often no need to drop the lead, even more so if using zipp shaped inlines as the weed will pass over it.
 
I understand that tackle manufacturers have a need to make money, its a business world out there.
 
Problem is that as anglers, you only really need a lead on the line that can be ejected safely in a break off or snag, attached to a hooklink with a hook and bait on the end, and to fish that safely, you don't need to buy loads of tackle, yet tackle manufacturers wouldn't exist if that is all we bought

Never been a fan of dropping the lead, must be the environmentalist coming out 

looks to me like SAFE no longer means safe, its now just synonymous with 'more money in the bank'
 would be interesting to get danny and kevins take on the SAFETY aspect tho.

Theres a great sticky in this section on safe lead set ups and there is also a couple of good threads , both current and in the former hot topic sections too with pics of members' lead set ups , components and sometimes their reasons for using them.
What with quite a few newish members getting involved recently as well i thought the subject worthy of a thread of its own , similar to bez's recent thread "which rig are you currently using " or something like that
 
So , i'm inviting everyone to post pics of their current lead set ups .
Lets see what you got boys ....
I'll post mine this evening when small child is not clambering all over me :)