Carpy spots, split from Simple Stiff d rig

[Pete Springate's Guns]

7 hours ago, yonny said:

I tend not to fish the cleanest spots.

I think this is a great starting point for discussion (if a little off topic!).
We read so much about finding the hardest/cleanest/smoothest ‘spots within spots’ but I tend to agree with Yonny. Certainly this last year on St Ives’ Shallow Pit, the very cleanest areas never produced one bite for me. All my bites came from firm/hard spots that I could still feel the odd bit of weed or silt on. It got to the point that I would avoid really clear spots and actively seek out what I imagined to be ‘new’ spots being created.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Pete Springate's Guns

[elmoputney]

11 minutes ago, Pete Springate's Guns said:

I think this is a great starting point for discussion (if a little off topic!).
We read so much about finding the hardest/cleanest/smoothest ‘spots within spots’ but I tend to agree with Yonny. Certainly this last year on St Ives’ Shallow Pit, the very cleanest areas never produced one bite for me. All my bites came from firm/hard spots that I could still feel the odd bit of weed or silt on. It got to the point that I would avoid really clear spots and actively seek out what I imagined to be ‘new’ spots being created.

I think it would be a good discussion, I tend to find softer spots can be more productive, I am keen to seek out some clay spots this year I found one or two last year but that was in a popular swim so I probably wouldn't try to work it myself , my most productive spots were clear or light of weed but in need of regular grooming tbh, I am cheating this year, I found I could easily find known or obvious spots but I never found those productive, this year I am gonna use my deeper 😳 to find some delicate spots that can be developed in less fancied areas, or holes in the weed to develop a bit 

I still feel dirty admitting I got a deeper but I've used it once and I did find out some useful info 😳

[yonny]

19 minutes ago, Pete Springate's Guns said:

All my bites came from firm/hard spots that I could still feel the odd bit of weed or silt on.

This👆

The way I see it rock hard clean spots have already been harvested, there's no grub there other than what you put out. In the softer areas around the clean stuff, or spots that are just beginning to be harvested, there's natural food so they'll be more inclined to feed there. Supplement that with bait and whallop, party time.

Of course, thousand and thousands of carp have been caught off clean gravel and some of the best anglers I know of still target rock hard clean stuff, but for me I find dirtier areas are more productive.

[elmoputney]

I made an accidental discovery on the spot I had baited regularly last year after a while that had got quite firm, but by fishing a rod on the edge of it I found one morning my hookbait was covered in bloodworm, so might be worth looking just off the main Spots for something slightly softer ? 

[ouchthathurt]

Does anyone remember a time when you just walked into a swim and thought “I’ll cast one over there, one to the far margin and one under that bush” (or similar) and “fish the swim” as opposed to finding “the spot” as such? 
 

on my local water, I can stand in a swim and the other anglers will say “9 wraps casting toward the left hand side of the dam” or “18 wraps toward the water tower” or “cast on the bank and place the rig 12” from the 3rd set of rushes from the dam wall” and everyone drops into the swim and casts to exactly those spots. A procession of anglers all placing their rigs in the same place. I’ve always thought that if you fish the same spots you can only catch the same as everyone else. 
 

when I stand in a given swim, i know that at “9 wraps (or whatever) cast at the dam is “the” spot, yet I can’t ignore the snaggy margins either side of me, plus there’s a lot of unfished water that’s being ignored by 90% of other anglers. 
 

on my second water, it’s a small intimate place with (admittedly very inviting) far margins that are an easy cast, nice overhanging trees and bushes. Everyone casts tight to the far bank, yet I get more takes fishing right under my rod tips. One night I had 13 carp under my rod tips, yet the one rod fished to the far margin (just in case) only produced one carp at dawn - which was a repeat capture - I had caught it 8hrs before... under the left hand rod tip! 
 

whilst fishing the known spots can and obviously do produce fish, I think that doing things differently suits me better. 

[Pete Springate's Guns]

The real eye opener of course is using a boat to look at spots and features. I had a session a few years back which proved to be very interesting. I’d arrived late one  Friday evening in early Summer after a particularly gruelling motorway journey.

My chosen swim certainly contained fish but also lots of weed. Boats were allowed for dropping markers and baiting up but rigs had to be cast. Out in the boat with the H blocks I set about finding some spots near where the fish had been showing, around 110 yds. It was a jungle with only the tiniest (dinner plate sized) true clear spots. I dropped the blocks in those areas where the weed was shortest and scattered bait widely around each one.

I’d been intending to fish my preferred lead clip set-up with a simple coated braid pop up but had to quickly re-tackle and use long running chods to sit over the weed. In truth I was not particularly happy doing so but it was by now nearly dark and it had taken the best part of 2 hours to get sorted. After casting each rod to their respective block, I quickly paddled out to check the presentation. Despite my best efforts I couldn’t find the right hand or middle rod for love nor money. But, purely by chance the left hand chod was sitting pretty on a hand sized sandy patch-you couldn’t have placed it better by hand!
 

I paddled back secure in the knowledge that at least 1 rod was fishing for the night and in with a chance. In the next 24hrs I had 3 low 20’s from the right hand and middle rods. The ‘banker’ left hand rod didn’t produce a bite and when I paddled out at the end of the session to check, it was still in ‘perfect’ position and all the surrounding bait (pellets, chops, corn) had gone!

Had I been able to present a bottom bait or wafter on that spot it just might have stood a chance, the chod was too blatant but the chances of hitting the spot again at that range was minimal.

 

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, ouchthathurt said:

Does anyone remember a time when you just walked into a swim and thought “I’ll cast one over there, one to the far margin and one under that bush” (or similar) and “fish the swim” as opposed to finding “the spot” as such? 
 

on my local water, I can stand in a swim and the other anglers will say “9 wraps casting toward the left hand side of the dam” or “18 wraps toward the water tower” or “cast on the bank and place the rig 12” from the 3rd set of rushes from the dam wall” and everyone drops into the swim and casts to exactly those spots. A procession of anglers all placing their rigs in the same place. I’ve always thought that if you fish the same spots you can only catch the same as everyone else. 
 

when I stand in a given swim, i know that at “9 wraps (or whatever) cast at the dam is “the” spot, yet I can’t ignore the snaggy margins either side of me, plus there’s a lot of unfished water that’s being ignored by 90% of other anglers. 
 

on my second water, it’s a small intimate place with (admittedly very inviting) far margins that are an easy cast, nice overhanging trees and bushes. Everyone casts tight to the far bank, yet I get more takes fishing right under my rod tips. One night I had 13 carp under my rod tips, yet the one rod fished to the far margin (just in case) only produced one carp at dawn - which was a repeat capture - I had caught it 8hrs before... under the left hand rod tip! 
 

whilst fishing the known spots can and obviously do produce fish, I think that doing things differently suits me better. 

I think I have become obsessed with being presented correctly, needing to find a suitable spot for it, I used to fish just under the rod tips quite often lol same water, years later I nearly always aim for the far margins 😂 the swim I fished a lot this year Infact I caught a decent fish from years ago literally just under the tips didn't even consider it this time 😳 

I watched the new carp angle programme with Joe Morgan last night, my jaw literally hit the floor when he said he was just going to chuck 2 rods out 😁 but it made perfect sense as he knew there were fish present and he didn't want to ruin his chances, I can't think of a time when I didn't know a spot inside out or hadn't found one and just chucked one out, I can certainly see me wanging more chods out this year at showing fish though, I ignored far too many signs last year of feeding fish that could've been catchable with the right set up,  its a tough one cos knowledge is power as they say, but it certainly pays to buck the trend I think 

 

 

[Carpbell_ll]

Pine pool at KWP is a funny one you can see clear spots out in the middle on a sunny day as well as plenty of other spots close in, i will stick my neck out and say if you fish them there is a good chance you will shut the lake down the more bait you put out the more likly it will happen, they like it in or on the weed or the odd clearish spot around the margins , what works best on a real hot day is wafters fished on 3-4 foot of mono and an inline lead  the lead goes through the silk weed and the wafter sits on top get right on the right day and pine pool can become a runs water. 

[yonny]

@Pete Springate's Guns I can totally relate to that. I fished a lake down south and was getting bites from an area that once I'd seen it from the boat i wouldn't dream of casting there. Drops felt ok but the Canadian was 2 ft deep. I was using 8 inch hook links. God knows how that works. Sometimes you're better off not knowing lol.

Edited January 20, 2021 by yonny

[Pete Springate's Guns]

9 hours ago, yonny said:

@Pete Springate's Guns I can totally relate to that. I fished a lake down south and was getting bites from an area that once I'd seen it from the boat i wouldn't dream of casting there. Drops felt ok but the Canadian was 2 ft deep. I was using 8 inch hook links. God knows how that works. Sometimes you're better off not knowing lol.

Yeah, when knowledge is a dangerous thing and ignorance is bliss!

[salokcinnodrog]

I know that feeling. 

When I fished Taverham in one swim I always used to stick a bait on the corner of the island, and the other in a bay just on the side of the island, for years it produced loads of fish to me and most others. Nowhere else in that swim produced. 

Bruce and I had a week there, stalking and surface fishing during the day, rods on alarms at night, which being as I 'knew the swim' was to the aforementioned spots. After 5 blank nights, I was fed up, being rained on and just chucked 2 rigs to the lily pads to the left where the swim shallowed up. I had 3 fish within minutes from a spot that had not previously produced. 

[ouchthathurt]

I’ve not actually used my marker rod for quite a while, I took the handle off the reel so it doesn’t get damaged in the hold-all. (The spod rod comes out even less!) I will get them out if I feel the need too, but it’s not often - this could just be down to knowing the waters I’m on currently. 
 

I fished a pit that was a flooded fold in the ground that in WW2 made up a large anti aircraft gun emplacement/early warning site built to protect the nearby Lydd Aerodrome (I think) 

it has deep gravelly margins that gives way to silt and seems pretty featureless, besides several concrete bases/towers that sit proud of the water surface. Yet there is an old road that stretches from one tower to open water. When you run the marker rod over it, you can feel the lead bump over one kerb and then over the other. It’s a good place for a bite, I’ve had the majority of my takes from there, yet a lot of the other anglers all fish on the gravel. In my experience, placing a bait in the silt just beyond the gravel produces the larger fish too. 

[chillfactor]

Enjoyed reading through this... so much of it rings true . 

[Carpmaster]

On 20/01/2021 at 15:47, Pete Springate's Guns said:

I think this is a great starting point for discussion (if a little off topic!).
We read so much about finding the hardest/cleanest/smoothest ‘spots within spots’ but I tend to agree with Yonny. Certainly this last year on St Ives’ Shallow Pit, the very cleanest areas never produced one bite for me. All my bites came from firm/hard spots that I could still feel the odd bit of weed or silt on. It got to the point that I would avoid really clear spots and actively seek out what I imagined to be ‘new’ spots being created.

The lake I fish the hard spots are where everyone fish and not a lot gets caught. Myself I fish the end of the weed or behind a weed Bed in the silt I’ve yet to land one but have had 7 takes so I’m doing something right 

[elmoputney]

I have slightly regretted last year that I gave up using Pva bags 🤔

I was probably getting quicker bites from them, and also they could be landed on slightly dirtier spots knowing there would be a lovely little package waiting for them, the reason I stopped was it was hard work and you had to be on your game, I would probably start a session having tied up about 20 at home, mesh bags are quicker and easier but I'm not convinced they are as effective as solid bags, the only good thing about them is you know most people won't be going to those lengths,and I was rechecking them every couple of hours so it is probably not a bad edge, and while I wouldn't be confident putting one in thick weed, I know it would be presented OK most of the time over a few different surfaces 🤔

 

[Carpmaster]

3 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I have slightly regretted last year that I gave up using Pva bags 🤔

I was probably getting quicker bites from them, and also they could be landed on slightly dirtier spots knowing there would be a lovely little package waiting for them, the reason I stopped was it was hard work and you had to be on your game, I would probably start a session having tied up about 20 at home, mesh bags are quicker and easier but I'm not convinced they are as effective as solid bags, the only good thing about them is you know most people won't be going to those lengths,and I was rechecking them every couple of hours so it is probably not a bad edge, and while I wouldn't be confident putting one in thick weed, I know it would be presented OK most of the time over a few different surfaces 🤔

 

I don’t fish in the weed just the dirty silty stuff behind or in front 

[emmcee]

7 hours ago, Carpmaster said:

The lake I fish the hard spots are where everyone fish and not a lot gets caught. Myself I fish the end of the weed or behind a weed Bed in the silt I’ve yet to land one but have had 7 takes so I’m doing something right 

Forgive me for saying this, but if you've had 7 takes and yet to land one then you're doing something wrong in my opinion.  I hope you're not losing your gear in the fish and are just having hook pulls, which still isn't ideal. 

[Carpmaster]

2 hours ago, emmcee said:

Forgive me for saying this, but if you've had 7 takes and yet to land one then you're doing something wrong in my opinion.  I hope you're not losing your gear in the fish and are just having hook pulls, which still isn't ideal. 

No just hookpull witch I’ve sorted now no separation from bait to hook 

[salokcinnodrog]

On 20/01/2021 at 16:11, yonny said:

This👆

The way I see it rock hard clean spots have already been harvested, there's no grub there other than what you put out. In the softer areas around the clean stuff, or spots that are just beginning to be harvested, there's natural food so they'll be more inclined to feed there. Supplement that with bait and whallop, party time.

Of course, thousand and thousands of carp have been caught off clean gravel and some of the best anglers I know of still target rock hard clean stuff, but for me I find dirtier areas are more productive.

Again at Taverham, I spent a lot of time out in the boat or wading. The most productive spots tended to be small gravel patches, even harder margins, not the biggest bars or plateaus. These gravel patches were not true bars, often being no more than the size of a dinner plate. 

One of my favourite swims was a tight corner swim looking to an overhanging tree with gravel under it. The productive spot was not the gravel, where carp would often pick up every free bait, leaving the hookbait, but a grubby patch next to a fallen branchless tree stump. It was the route into or out of one of the back channels. 

 

Brackens on Nazeing was a lake where for some reason you had to fish on the gravel if you weren't fishing the margins. If anyone has ever seen the lake empty, the gravel bars often rise vertically from the lakebed, no slope. You simply could not get a take from the deeper silty areas. 

I think that some gravel bars are 'roadways' rather than actual feeding areas. If there is bait on it, you may get a pick-up, but carp are more wary and inspect everything, whereas in the silt adjacent to it is where the food is. 

[ouchthathurt]

That’s the question isn’t it? How much food can a carp expect to find in gravel as opposed to silt or weed or to a lesser extent clay? How much is fishing on gravel because it’s actually better than the other substrates? Or is it because it’s “convenient” for the angler? You get exact rig presentation, the “donk” feels awesome, the tap of gravel is addictive... yet are we as anglers more reliant on creating a feature on a gravel spot through the application of bait, how much have anglers educated carp over the years to feed on gravel by processions of anglers baiting up known gravel patches? Gravel obviously produces many takes, so that would suggest that carp must be finding some types of foodstuffs, natural and bait in the gravel to be aware of this surface being a potential food source. 

[emmcee]

 We as anglers put our bait on clear spots primarily, for rig efficiency and in our minds thinking that's where the fish need it to be to feed on it. Carp are masters of their own environment though and can feed where they like, when they like. So from clean gravel, clay spots, silt in varying depths , in the weed and of course in the water column itself.  By watercraft and observation of any food being excreted by a carp that you catch you can get an idea on where they are feeding predominantly.  In my opinion there are definitely times when fish prefer to feed on gravel, on/in silt etc. If you can work this out on your lake then it makes the puzzle easier to fit together. 

I've fished a couple of lakes in the past that were full of  gravel bars/plateaus,  silt gulleys and weedy areas. Without doubt in my own fishing the gravel spots in these lakes or the weed were the places to fish in the warmer months. Though at night time better results were achieved by fishing where the gravel met the silt. Autumn time was definitely the silty areas/clay spots that done the majority of the fish for me. 

[elmoputney]

13 minutes ago, emmcee said:

 We as anglers put our bait on clear spots primarily, for rig efficiency and in our minds thinking that's where the fish need it to be to feed on it. Carp are masters of their own environment though and can feed where they like, when they like. So from clean gravel, clay spots, silt in varying depths , in the weed and of course in the water column itself.  By watercraft and observation of any food being excreted by a carp that you catch you can get an idea on where they are feeding predominantly.  In my opinion there are definitely times when fish prefer to feed on gravel, on/in silt etc. If you can work this out on your lake then it makes the puzzle easier to fit together. 

I've fished a couple of lakes in the past that were full of  gravel bars/plateaus,  silt gulleys and weedy areas. Without doubt in my own fishing the gravel spots in these lakes or the weed were the places to fish in the warmer months. Though at night time better results were achieved by fishing where the gravel met the silt. Autumn time was definitely the silty areas/clay spots that done the majority of the fish for me. 

I like your theory about the day/night time being different, 

I remember Simon Scott talking about something similar in a podcast he was suggesting that in the day time the bloodworm could stay hidden in the silt but as it gets to night time and the oxygen levels decrease, the bloodworm have to come to the top of the silt to get enough oxygen,so that also makes them easier to eat, that may help explain your theory a little 

[salokcinnodrog]

6 hours ago, elmoputney said:

I like your theory about the day/night time being different, 

I remember Simon Scott talking about something similar in a podcast he was suggesting that in the day time the bloodworm could stay hidden in the silt but as it gets to night time and the oxygen levels decrease, the bloodworm have to come to the top of the silt to get enough oxygen,so that also makes them easier to eat, that may help explain your theory a little 

Rod Hutchinson often explained something similar about the carp using gravel bars as the routes across gravel pits, and the silt in between being the feeding areas. 

Day time may be the time to fish on gravel and night the time to fish off them. 

The day is an 'inquisitive' take, night is a feeding take. 

RH also mentioned that the carp may hide in lily beds and weed in the day, occasionally picking up a bait, and again coming out of the weed to feed properly at night. 

[ouchthathurt]

He also said if you’re too drunk to cast, chuck them in the edge! Lol! The man was a legend, RIP the late great Rod Hutchinson 

[Carpmaster]

13 hours ago, ouchthathurt said:

He also said if you’re too drunk to cast, chuck them in the edge! Lol! The man was a legend, RIP the late great Rod Hutchinson 

Rip rod he was one of the first and leading boilie additive guys out there