finchey Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 I've been using the nash instant action candy nut crush and coconut cream shelf life and they seem to be quite a hard bait is this normal for shelf life boilies? and is there anything I can do to soften them up? If I can't soften these boilie's up a bit can anyone recommend a softer shelf life. It's just that these seem quite hard as a hook bait and I feel when you get a pick up they must feel hard to the carp. Surely a softer bait is more attractive to a carp and softer boilie's must be easier to digest. Sorry if this is a stupid question 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C. Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, finchey said: Surely a softer bait is more attractive to a carp and softer boilie's must be easier to digest. Sorry if this is a stupid question 😀 Don't apologise Finchey, it's not a stupid question mate...…… It's a good subject this with a few angles to consider imo…. Here's a few of my views, and they are just opinions based on a bit of reading, a bit of fishing and various comments from different people...… Glad you mentioned digestion. btw. Imo ( I will keep saying "imo", so as not to offend anyone)… The ability of a bait to be easily broken down, not just crushed, but dismantled , a molecule at a time, by natural enzymes, is everything imo. It not only allows the bait ingredients to by utilised by the fish,( As once broken down by enzymes into, amino acids,simple sugars and fatty acids, to name a few, these can be absorbed through the lining of the fishes digestive tract, and on into it's circulatory system and delivered to wherever they are needed, within the body, to promote, muscle growth, tissue repair, plain old energy, etc etc..) but it will also attract naturals onto the baits/baited area too, for the same reasons. Ie, the naturals, snails, bugs etc , will be looking for the same nourishment. So a good bait, imo, will be attracting naturals from the off, onto your baits and providing a veritable banquet for any fish, this, imo gives the added attraction of lots of tiny movement over the spot, which fish will home in on, imo, with their ability to detect such things , through "electro sensory" detection... So these, easily digestible baits, promote a whole cycle of events, a life cycle if you will. And even if you are fishing a vast water and have put some bait in a spot where they are difficult to find by the fish (carp)… They will still attract naturals and in turn silvers etc and be devoured by the lakes inhabitants...Worst scenario, because the enzyme activity produces gas, primarily CO2, if the baits are not completely eaten, they will gas up and float to the surface after about 3 days and be picked off by the bird life or blown into the edge where the birds, rats etc will get them...……… Basically, they will not be sitting on the bottom and rotting for weeks...…. The only time that could happen with a good bait, is when temperatures are at their very lowest, this will slow down the enzyme activity and therefore slow down a whole chain of events. So in cold conditions, it's very important to put any bait in the right place, where a degree or two of warmer temperature can make a huge difference, to the life cycle..... So there you go, a brief description of what a good food source can bring to water, plenty of life in a cycle that benefits everything that lives in it...….. Right, now shelfies, how can I put this?...……. " NONE OF THAT HAPPENS"........ They should be banned imo..... It's most likely some very clever attractor packages used in them, as to why they catch fish.. But the fact that they are stuffed with preservatives to stop the enzymes doing their thing, means they add nothing to the environment they are chucked into, with some reports suggesting that the preservatives leaking out, can actually be quite harmful to small creatures and actually kill off fish eggs...... Add to that, that the preservatives will also hinder the gut flora (enzymes found naturally in the gut) in our fish, so they cannot possibly break these baits down and utilise anything that is in them... You may as well be feeding them cardboard...... Bleached cardboard with a sugar coating imo......... When you catch a fish that is Emptying out loads of a particular bait, imo, it's a stinky winky bait that can't be digested and is just passed through, so please don't think they are thriving on it........ Right, getting back to the OP, soft baits, hard baits etc (again, just my op'). I'm going to dismiss hook baits, as I will always use a hard hook bait to get round the smaller species pecking at it , or coots etc picking up and dropping it......... That just leaves "feed baits", mine are always soft, boiled for about 20 seconds just to form a light skin that stops them sticking together in the bag. The plus side of this , is that very few of the goodies, liquids and soluble ingredients are boiled out of the baits and once they have been in the lake for a couple of hours, they will break apart when the coots try to pick them up, mostly............ And having done a few pint glass tests on them, they will literally disintergrate , after about 10hrs, if you touch one...... Whether the softness of a bit is more attractive to a carp, who knows, they pick up snails, mussels etc which are hard, but they also feed on, bloodworm etc, that are soft..... Being omnivorous scavangers I would think that the hardness/softness issue wouldn't really come into it, as long as the right food signals/attractors are being picked up on... Nuts are hard, worms are soft, they love both.... The problem I have with harder baits (boilies), it just says to me that there are fewer soluble ingredients in them and imo, will be mostly cheap ingredients held together with something like whey gel or egg albumin, and give me the feeling that they are slightly "locked up", which may take longer for any attractors to do their thing, not great if you are on a shorter sesh imo...... If I had some baits like this, I would probably try to boost them and soften them at the same time, by first air drying for 24hrs and then rehydrating them/soaking them, in something with a bit of pulling power, liver hydro, fish hydro, that sort of thing....... Even some plain old liquidised live, a quids worth of liver, liquidised and diluted with some lake water is all you will need for a few kg of bait....... gjc1, yonny, hutch and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchey Posted September 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, B.C. said: Don't apologise Finchey, it's not a stupid question mate...…… It's a good subject this with a few angles to consider imo…. Here's a few of my views, and they are just opinions based on a bit of reading, a bit of fishing and various comments from different people...… Glad you mentioned digestion. btw. Imo ( I will keep saying "imo", so as not to offend anyone)… The ability of a bait to be easily broken down, not just crushed, but dismantled , a molecule at a time, by natural enzymes, is everything imo. It not only allows the bait ingredients to by utilised by the fish,( As once broken down by enzymes into, amino acids,simple sugars and fatty acids, to name a few, these can be absorbed through the lining of the fishes digestive tract, and on into it's circulatory system and delivered to wherever they are needed, within the body, to promote, muscle growth, tissue repair, plain old energy, etc etc..) but it will also attract naturals onto the baits/baited area too, for the same reasons. Ie, the naturals, snails, bugs etc , will be looking for the same nourishment. So a good bait, imo, will be attracting naturals from the off, onto your baits and providing a veritable banquet for any fish, this, imo gives the added attraction of lots of tiny movement over the spot, which fish will home in on, imo, with their ability to detect such things , through "electro sensory" detection... So these, easily digestible baits, promote a whole cycle of events, a life cycle if you will. And even if you are fishing a vast water and have put some bait in a spot where they are difficult to find by the fish (carp)… They will still attract naturals and in turn silvers etc and be devoured by the lakes inhabitants...Worst scenario, because the enzyme activity produces gas, primarily CO2, if the baits are not completely eaten, they will gas up and float to the surface after about 3 days and be picked off by the bird life or blown into the edge where the birds, rats etc will get them...……… Basically, they will not be sitting on the bottom and rotting for weeks...…. The only time that could happen with a good bait, is when temperatures are at their very lowest, this will slow down the enzyme activity and therefore slow down a whole chain of events. So in cold conditions, it's very important to put any bait in the right place, where a degree or two of warmer temperature can make a huge difference, to the life cycle..... So there you go, a brief description of what a good food source can bring to water, plenty of life in a cycle that benefits everything that lives in it...….. Right, now shelfies, how can I put this?...……. " NONE OF THAT HAPPENS"........ They should be banned imo..... It's most likely some very clever attractor packages used in them, as to why they catch fish.. But the fact that they are stuffed with preservatives to stop the enzymes doing their thing, means they add nothing to the environment they are chucked into, with some reports suggesting that the preservatives leaking out, can actually be quite harmful to small creatures and actually kill off fish eggs...... Add to that, that the preservatives will also hinder the gut flora (enzymes found naturally in the gut) in our fish, so they cannot possibly break these baits down and utilise anything that is in them... You may as well be feeding them cardboard...... Bleached cardboard with a sugar coating imo......... When you catch a fish that is Emptying out loads of a particular bait, imo, it's a stinky winky bait that can't be digested and is just passed through, so please don't think they are thriving on it........ Right, getting back to the OP, soft baits, hard baits etc (again, just my op'). I'm going to dismiss hook baits, as I will always use a hard hook bait to get round the smaller species pecking at it , or coots etc picking up and dropping it......... That just leaves "feed baits", mine are always soft, boiled for about 20 seconds just to form a light skin that stops them sticking together in the bag. The plus side of this , is that very few of the goodies, liquids and soluble ingredients are boiled out of the baits and once they have been in the lake for a couple of hours, they will break apart when the coots try to pick them up, mostly............ And having done a few pint glass tests on them, they will literally disintergrate , after about 10hrs, if you touch one...... Whether the softness of a bit is more attractive to a carp, who knows, they pick up snails, mussels etc which are hard, but they also feed on, bloodworm etc, that are soft..... Being omnivorous scavangers I would think that the hardness/softness issue wouldn't really come into it, as long as the right food signals/attractors are being picked up on... Nuts are hard, worms are soft, they love both.... The problem I have with harder baits (boilies), it just says to me that there are fewer soluble ingredients in them and imo, will be mostly cheap ingredients held together with something like whey gel or egg albumin, and give me the feeling that they are slightly "locked up", which may take longer for any attractors to do their thing, not great if you are on a shorter sesh imo...... If I had some baits like this, I would probably try to boost them and soften them at the same time, by first air drying for 24hrs and then rehydrating them/soaking them, in something with a bit of pulling power, liver hydro, fish hydro, that sort of thing....... Even some plain old liquidised live, a quids worth of liver, liquidised and diluted with some lake water is all you will need for a few kg of bait....... Thanks B.C. for another in depth reply very interesting reading and very helpful. I'm afraid I won't be rolling my own baits the amount of fishing I do doesn't really warrant it but I do think I'm going to be investing in a little bait freezer and swapping to frozen baits. I have been toying with the idea for a while it would come in handy for my pike fishing as well, it would free up a draw in our home freezer the wife will be made up. 😂 B.C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 5 hours ago, finchey said: I've been using the nash instant action candy nut crush and coconut cream shelf life and they seem to be quite a hard bait is this normal for shelf life boilies? and is there anything I can do to soften them up? If I can't soften these boilie's up a bit can anyone recommend a softer shelf life. It's just that these seem quite hard as a hook bait and I feel when you get a pick up they must feel hard to the carp. Surely a softer bait is more attractive to a carp and softer boilie's must be easier to digest. Sorry if this is a stupid question 😀 Hi Finch...I also use the EXACT BAITS but As B.C says i let a hand full of each harden up for hook baits and the rest i lightly soak in corresponding liquid...Nash Coconut in the Rod Hutch Coconut Creme and the Nash Candy Nut in Manilla Liquid...as also stated about digestion and on another thread ive asked about chick peas compared to tiger nuts... B.C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C. Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 1 hour ago, finchey said: little bait freezer Nice to have one if you have the space, mines full of everything, powders, ground bait, particle, boilies...… Bit like sweeping it all under the rug lol 😄 finchey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborx Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 (edited) @finchey having just posted a hint of my current bait on another post i will expand on my views a little, the bait i use is a shelf life with a dual personality. i have found that removing a few of the boilies from the bag and keeping them for hookers they are quite hard but will start to break up after 10-15 hrs (tank test with lake water at ambient (outside) temp) BUT!!! the company also supply magic in a pot called H-Dec (Hydrolysis Digestive Enzyme Catalyst) which apparently "in effect ‘de stabilizes’ your baits. ‘Un-preserving’ the preservative, ‘un-inhibiting the inhibitors’ and ‘removing the shelf life’ in your shelf life baits"(quote direct from their blurb) that you mix with lake water and add to your boilies a day before requiring them, the effect is quite amazing to see as the boilies will start to break down and ooze goodness and attraction before your very eyes. just to add, the fish seem to love them as they broke my loooong blank and they just keep on producing Edited September 17, 2018 by cyborx cos i felt i owed it to myself, and it felt goooood ;) TnCarper and finchey 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpz_31 Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 the only shelf life boilie I ever used was quest baits pineapple crush those things were rock hard and felt a bit waxy but the fish loved them, never really looked at break down times tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 Shelf life baits have moved on from the high preservatives used in most years ago. Most shelf life baits are now preserved with a glycerol sugar syrup rather than 'unnatural' preservatives. It is finding the companies that do use the same bait frozen as shelf life. Freezer baits boiled, dried then frozen, the same base mix as shelf life which are dried, dipped in the glycerol sugar syrup then dried. However not every company does this. I know Crafty Catcher, Rod Hutchinson are treated in this way, and I think Nash does, however I do try to avoid Nash baits, (personally, the less money I put in his pocket the better). Some shelf lifes are even dried totally with no preservatives, but they are lighter and rock hard. Rock hard baits are not all a bad thing! B.C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 4 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said: Shelf life baits have moved on from the high preservatives used in most years ago. Most shelf life baits are now preserved with a glycerol sugar syrup rather than 'unnatural' preservatives. It is finding the companies that do use the same bait frozen as shelf life. I used to think this way and i'm sure some people/companies do it better than others but there are some scary baits appearing on the market that are not much more than a lump of cereal meals and being preserved using preservatives that are no better than the ones from yester year. As with tackle there are money men floating round in the bait industry for a fast buck. B.C., salokcinnodrog and yonny 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchey Posted September 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2018 On 18/09/2018 at 19:08, Dannygooner said: I always use shelf life and the best by far I've used are crafty catcher. Notable catch differences using these. They are relatively soft too. Been smashing it with crab and sea salt. I use the source sometimes as they have a 10mm option and they are really soft. Almost to soft for me I only find the crab and sea salt in 500g bags is that the only size they do? 👍 Donnygooner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finchey Posted September 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Dannygooner said: 4 bags for 15 nicker I've been buying mate. At the tackle shop. They do bigger bags of other flavours. Every bait I've used of theirs has been good to be honest. My friend and I bagged 28 carp on a runs water recently and between another 5 anglers there we see 6 fish caught. Was it the bait , who knows, but we was only using them boilies. Coconut and glm, crabmeat and salt, tutti frutti and shrimp. All served me well. I don't bulk buy bait as I don't go enough or use enough. Is that your local tackle shop or online? 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I don't trust a lot of shelf life and don't feel confident on it either. I'm told things have improved but I'm not so sure. Preservatives and lakes don't mix for me, simple as that.. However I believe that Manilla is preserved only using sugar, that's how it tasted to me anyway in comparing it to freezer bait, and they claim it's a ''natural'' preservative (it's the first fully human food grade boilie ever commercially made by the way, get stuck in) so I carry a bit of that about as spare bait which I don't have to worry about drying and using up/refreezing etc. I trust Sticky I think they're a lovely company, they're not the only bait I use though a I use a combination of a couple of different brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Dez Animaux said: However I believe that Manilla is preserved only using sugar, that's how it tasted to me anyway in comparing it to freezer bait, and they claim it's a ''natural'' preservative (it's the first fully human food grade boilie ever commercially made by the way, get stuck in) Never tried yet...but you really mean you can EAT the Manilla boilies. I do LOVE the Vanilla Fudgey smell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Highy said: Never tried yet...but you really mean you can EAT the Manilla boilies. I do LOVE the Vanilla Fudgey smell... They would never reccomend you do so or encourage it mate but, yes, Manilla is fully human food grade (and tastes quite nice).. It's believed to be the first human food grade boilie ever made public I love the stuff I think it's a design classic, it isn't the only bait I use though Edited October 15, 2018 by Dez Animaux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yonny Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 8 hours ago, Dez Animaux said: Manilla is fully human food grade (and tastes quite nice).. It's believed to be the first human food grade boilie ever made public What good is that when we're fishing for carp lol? AndyCh, Pete Springate's Guns, B.C. and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C. Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 13 hours ago, Dez Animaux said: human food grade boilie Sodium Benzoate, or salts derived from benzoic acid (an old school nasty preservative) are what some firms are using as their "human grade" preservative...….. Not good for Cyprinids…..( This I picked up on from elsewhere0 A lot of big names in bait making were quoted by another member on a different post and used as a reason to trust bait firms..... But to be honest, some of those names don't trust the bait firms and have moved on to other companies in the past...… Once a bait has been tinkered with to get through the machines quicker and chopped about a bit by the money men to make more profit, it's likely, that the bait that ends up in a bag on the shelves, is a shadow of the original bait, designed by said name.... Hence, imo, the honest guys amongst them moving on. Some won't , but lets be honest, some of the worlds best chefs, will still be seen on the packaging of ready meals in order to sell rubbish to the unsuspecting public..... £££££££££££££££ Pete Springate's Guns and snowmanstevo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 You shouldn't misquote people The boilie is a human food grade one and I happen to use the frozen and, like I said, carry shelf life only as spare bait You have no idea what the preservative sticky use is, and I strongly believe it is just sugar in the case of Manilla Make your own points instead of using others out of context Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, B.C. said: Sodium Benzoate, or salts derived from benzoic acid (an old school nasty preservative) are what some firms are using as their "human grade" preservative...….. Not good for Cyprinids…..( This I picked up on from elsewhere0 A lot of big names in bait making were quoted by another member on a different post and used as a reason to trust bait firms..... But to be honest, some of those names don't trust the bait firms and have moved on to other companies in the past...… Once a bait has been tinkered with to get through the machines quicker and chopped about a bit by the money men to make more profit, it's likely, that the bait that ends up in a bag on the shelves, is a shadow of the original bait, designed by said name.... Hence, imo, the honest guys amongst them moving on. Some won't , but lets be honest, some of the worlds best chefs, will still be seen on the packaging of ready meals in order to sell rubbish to the unsuspecting public..... £££££££££££££££ You shouldn't misquote people mate The boilie is a human food grade one and I happen to use the frozen and, like I said, carry shelf life only as spare bait You have no idea what the preservative sticky use is, and I strongly believe it is just sugar in the case of Manilla I don't trust shelf life myself but this one I think is ok, and my own opinion of big name anglers ''moving on'' from bait companies is not so much about the product as much as to do with them being disloyal egotistical berks who rub people up the wrong way, no names mentioned but ''Uncle'' (no uncle of mine) Jim Shelley hopping from one firm to the next every two minutes is that name I shall not whisper! I trust Sticky they are wonderfully clean and there have never been any whispers, unlike some companies, of them holding back the better ingredients for their big names, you seem to be quite negative about big brand commercial bait, I take it you roll your own?? Well I see the big brands as companies that have done well for themselves by producing a good product, and fair play to them, but my Sticky (amongst another one or two brands) catches me fish on a hard lake so I'm more than happy with it as it works and they like eating it Edited October 16, 2018 by Dez Animaux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C. Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 47 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said: Jim Shelley As far as I know, he's not a bait designer...………... Whom have I misquoted??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 15 minutes ago, B.C. said: As far as I know, he's not a bait designer...………... Whom have I misquoted??? You misquoted me mate as you inferred that I was discussing the preservative in Manilla as human food grade I was not, I was saying that the boilie itself is the first fully human food grade bait ever produced No hard feelings, crossed wires mate, I don't actually trust shelf life either, but I do think you need to have a little more faith in bait companies, they know that if they cut corners their reputation will suffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C. Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Dez Animaux said: human food grade bait ever produced Enjoy eating it then mate. No offence taken, I've got my views and you have yours...… I'm careful not to mention names of people or companies on this subject.... All I care about is nature, the fish, the lakes etc.. I find it a bit hypocritical for some anglers to turn up with a load of fish care equipment and then chuck preservatives into a lake.... Just my op'. yonny and Pete Springate's Guns 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscsha Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 mac donalds is food grade -- say no more B.C. and Salfordcarl 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 19 hours ago, oscsha said: mac donalds is food grade Is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscsha Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just because the ingredients are human grade doesn't mean they are safe for fish especially not knowing the quantities used , the food industry use some dangerous chemicals in processed foods that the food agency allow us to eat . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, oscsha said: Just because the ingredients are human grade doesn't mean they are safe for fish especially not knowing the quantities used , the food industry use some dangerous chemicals in processed foods that the food agency allow us to eat . Food ingredients used in human food can often be of lower standard than that of food used in animal husbandry and carp baits. Just because it is human standard does not mean it is healthy at all. Most shelf life boilies now avoid the use of potassium sorbate, yet it is a human grade food preservative! As for Macdonalds, that is acceptable good for humans, yet I would not feed it to my dog, although every now and again I do eat Maccyd's. oscsha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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