HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[elmoputney]

27 minutes ago, Barney2 said:

Curve shanks are a bit notorious - I think the general consensus is they're dodgy on smaller carp which tend to turn quickly and dart about a lot at the net area

I don't get on with barbless, I'm very fussy with hooks and use fine wire, widegape only, with a tiny whisker barb - size 6 Korda widegape (normal not X or ka(k)makura) is the biggest hook and chunkiest wire I use (its quite fine wire in that size but never fails)

I'm trying those gripz I just invested in a whole load of size 8s - haven't seen for myself what they're like yet but I need them for barbless only old favourite classic dayticket venues

It sounds like you haven't encountered soft mouthed carp yet mate - they are a problem which thankfully you only get on the odd lake - I looked it up its quite a complex problem

If you like a wide gape have a look at the ESP Claw Hammer, lovely hooks and sharp out the packet too. 

[bluelabel]

One of my pet peeves is anglers using rods far too heavy for a water... I was on a small clubbie a wee while ago, and a lad was using a pair of 3.5lb rods and big pit reels on a small water with fish of less than 30lbs...  probably using 15-18lb line where you can quite happily land a 20 on a light 1.5lb/1.75lb rod and 8-10lb line... balanced tackle is far better than overgunned rods... I appreciate that it may have been that he can only afford one set of rods, but I think a chunk of the blame has to be laid at the feet of the media for advocating heavy gear on their videos, and not making a point in telling folks the heavy gear isn't required for a large majority of UK carping.

Unforgiving, heavy poundage rods are just not required and in the hands of the inexperienced can and will cause mouth damage, especially in conjunction with a tight clutch...

[framey]

17 hours ago, bluelabel said:

One of my pet peeves is anglers using rods far too heavy for a water... I was on a small clubbie a wee while ago, and a lad was using a pair of 3.5lb rods and big pit reels on a small water with fish of less than 30lbs...  probably using 15-18lb line where you can quite happily land a 20 on a light 1.5lb/1.75lb rod and 8-10lb line... balanced tackle is far better than overgunned rods... I appreciate that it may have been that he can only afford one set of rods, but I think a chunk of the blame has to be laid at the feet of the media for advocating heavy gear on their videos, and not making a point in telling folks the heavy gear isn't required for a large majority of UK carping.

Unforgiving, heavy poundage rods are just not required and in the hands of the inexperienced can and will cause mouth damage, especially in conjunction with a tight clutch...

The problem is the “distributors” 

(I use that word as most are made by someone else anyway)

are telling us that’s what we need so the lower test curve rods are just not available anymore because the “celebs/stars” are using heavy rods

whether that be 6 footers 

10 footers or 13 footers.

 

I don’t have a problem with higher tc rods per se but the action isn’t kind on them as most are fast to enable distance casting. Couple that with the modern reels that the clutch is either tight or loose because everyone of the “stars/celebs” and their dog are using quick clutch reels.

[bluelabel]

Was a time when you could get lower poundage rods, now 3lb seems the minimum and to be honest for a lot of waters it just isn't needed... My 9' Dwarfs are 2.75lb through action, lovely playing rods for small waters, and I think they are a bit heavy... But the "Stars" as you rightly say advocate heavy rods to cast big weights a long way... for goodness sake a 3.75lb rod (4lb Kaizens... really...????) They are beachcasters or light spod rods fer crying out loud... these rods have no business on a carp pool in the UK... and I don't care what others think, these rods in the wrong hands are  prime suspects in mouth damage... 

[Barney2]

As I said elsewhere I believe the main problem is short high test curve rods.. too much torque.. 

but also low stretch lines, and simply playing fish too hard, not letting them run

carp should always be played calmly and gently and tricks used to stop them running for snags other than slamming the brakes on

[yonny]

9 hours ago, Barney2 said:

short high test curve rods

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

[salokcinnodrog]

4 hours ago, yonny said:

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

Manufacturers and tackle brands with their own media production. It has gotten to the stage that you can't easily get 'sensible' tackle.

I've been arguing the toss about it for years. 

Practice casting is no more as 'high test curve rods will cure the distance shortage immediately'. Years ago in the 1990's I was hitting over 100metres with 2¼lb TC rods, admittedly with 8lb line and leader, and eventually switched up to 2¾lb rods with 15lb line, line which has become standard, to get the same distance.

Nazeing Central and South was a real eye opener, I needed to hit 150metres, so went to 3.25lb rods.

Everything was in 12ft, I could get those distances.

The shorter rods just didn't seem right, especially as I have been to casting tournaments and seen rods get longer from 12ft, to 12ft6in, 13ft even 14ft.

I get a shorter rod for stalking, it makes sense, but not in a massive test curve with a tip action.

[Barney2]

theres loads of old (sound) videos on youtube explaining how test curve is murky water and should not be associated with a rod's 'power'

the highest pull strength always comes from split cane*, I think Hexagraph score v. high as well

I believe a split cane avon rod of 12ft was shown to have a far higher pull strength than a flash modern 3.75lb or so 13ft distance rod

the casting distance is coming from the technology of ultra fast tip recovery speed, not rod power - of course its also extremely light and can be moved FAST!!

 

It makes no difference which you play fish on you just adapt to it - split cane is FAR more durable than tubular carbon and better for feel because tubular carbon ovals out and becomes useless for FEEL - carbon CAN decay if used for heavy casting - split cane doesn't and steel and fibreglass rods are both far tougher than carbon - solid fibreglass rods are nearly indestructable (but very heavy) - they have enormous casting ability but are slowed down by sheer weight

solid carbon rods could be interesting, never tried them

cane and fibreglass are the nicest material to play fish on as you are always feeling everything going on in a lovely fluid way (with any line including stertchy good old tough as boots mono

I hate braid very passionately, it is only of any use for testing torque twist in a badly built rod with a very strong spine

never fall into the trap of believing a very flash ''top end'' distance carbon rod is 'strong' or 'tough' or 'better' just as it has a high test curve and a high price tag! - its just a performance tool tuned for the longest casting possible putting high speed into a very fast recovery tip

carbon rods are more fragile the higher the price tag gets!

I don't want rods I will be crying over worrying whether the sharp knock they got from a doorway has damaged them or not - they are also easy to snap by 'pranging' either against obstacles or by line snagged around them

choose a rod for the water you fish but also the line you're using

I fish small waters and never had a lot of money - If I had I would have invested in some Hexagraphs, but Harrisons and Bruce Ashby (Mirage and Ballistas do me proud they have sensational gentle but firm fish playing actions and are very accurate casting* - they are ok at distance up to longish range but a bit heavy, through and slow for that purpose

*(consistent) accurate casting comes from spine alignment as well, Ballistas tend to be soft plane spined which I like and build on for *consistency of feel between each rod - Mirage are hard plane spined and they just feel classy, a little more 'bossy' and crisp in that plane - but each rod in a set will feel the same as they are tuned - rod sections belong together and its important - if they are muddled I can quickly find who belongs with who with the simple roll test but you do it with the whole rod assembled, not just per section

You will always find the tip section to be off spine feeling on a properly spined rod because its the upper middle of the whole rod which is important for casting, and the middle of the rod which is important for feel - Bruce will have this working both ways - back and forth - so will a decent Ballista builder

Daiwa spine Longbows and Infinitys beautifully, but, mark the sections straight away and keep them together

some modern and modern(ish) blanks are spineless (even cheap you would be surprised) - and some have a barely noticeable spine which has no effect

Shimano tend to have either no spine or a very weak one (both are a good thing and require no alignment) - Shimano higher end blanks tend to be very strong and durable compared to others at similar price range

Some cheap rods have a very strong spine, which is misaligned (most probably due to mass production) can cause the rod to torque twist horribly and be absolute rubbish as a fishing tool of any finesse, accuracy or feel at all - it was a big name spinning rod, lower mid range and was absolutely horrible - I rebuilt it on the spine and used it as a nice roach/perch rod as it had a great very gentle yet lively little through action (those strong spined monstrosities are getting rarer on the market now so fear not with any cheaper rod you are fond of - if you like it just use it and enjoy it - these are all fairly minor percentages and usually nothing to worry about except for the odd nasty )

I haven't tested Greys, don't like or have the slightest interest in Korda, - I bought the rods I tested so it got silly with money selling them on cheap - any other brands I never tested

I enjoy rebuilding cheap rods on the spine just to have knocking around for young family to use and put on bike without silly holdalls and not worry about

I have no interest whatsoever in tournament casting technology so I can't comment on casting distance ins and outs, winners and losers and other brands I never investigated

the roll test is hard to explain but easy to do, I reiterate that apart from one 'nasty' in about 40 rods tested this is about a simple enhancement of feel, consistency, accuracy, and durability - slight, yes, but nice to know you have tuned rods..

I OFTEN tested people rods and found they are fine, as I say if spine is weak you have zero problem

its a geekism, all my rods are spined and it took me ages to sort out and cost a lot of money - but I rate old used good rods better than cheap new ones anyway

I only need to rebuild the tip section only to spine any rod, or with travel rods I only need to rebuild a single middle section (or two on, say, a six or seven piece 'smuggler' rod) - sometimes that means changing the position of a single guide!

 

 

[OldBoy]

Just to poke my nose in....

I have been fishing for over 50 years, brought up by fishing on river mole and Thames for catching Dace, Chub, gudgeon and also bleak bashing!

Very light tackle in those days, learnt how to play fish in, barbless hooks, used to be used for match fishing to improve hooking for dace.

Anyway, move on... times have 'sadly' changed, pot noodle carpers seem to think fishing day ticket waters with as stated before 3.5 test curve rods, 15lb line and hauling some poor double in....

Without dought I think this causes soo much damage.

I now longer fish day ticket waters, however I unforturnatly expect to see the same on my club lake soon.

As for hooks, barbless really dont do more damage, only hook I remember was the Rob Maylin bent hook which was an absolute no no!

[OldBoy]

Just out of interest, who is this Barney guy?

Maybe out of interest mate, not sure what you are on about with casting....

I had original Hutchie Horizon casting rods, supplied by Gary Bayles, good bloke in the past.  They were coupled by Ryobi Project sea fishing reels, way before big pit reels, easy cast 100yds with that combo... lead on floor to increase compression... maybe another trend to reinact again lol

[yonny]

1 hour ago, Barney2 said:

I rebuilt it on the spine

There used to be a guy on here that chatted about building on the spine a lot. He turned out to be a complete lunatic/psycho but much of what he said (about rods) is in agreement with what you've said.

[Barney2]

whoever it was deserves congratulations obviously (for getting under your skin)

as that is a vile and insensitive choice of language to use about somebody online in public - nobody cares who you had a beef with, you just made YOURSELF look bad is all

 

anyway why not ask THEM who they are

 

Ps do you think rod spines are some sort of unusual topic? There are scores of threads about them all over multiple fishing forums across the World going back decades 

and not just on rod building forums - across America there are hundreds of thousands of amateur rod builders, thousands more in the UK

Fishing is a big subject its the number one participation sport in the World - (there is a World outside UK carp fishing you know - rods are actually used for other species as well, by other people in other countries)!!

[Barney2]

3 hours ago, OldBoy said:

Just to poke my nose in....

I have been fishing for over 50 years, brought up by fishing on river mole and Thames for catching Dace, Chub, gudgeon and also bleak bashing!

Very light tackle in those days, learnt how to play fish in, barbless hooks, used to be used for match fishing to improve hooking for dace.

Anyway, move on... times have 'sadly' changed, pot noodle carpers seem to think fishing day ticket waters with as stated before 3.5 test curve rods, 15lb line and hauling some poor double in....

Without dought I think this causes soo much damage.

I now longer fish day ticket waters, however I unforturnatly expect to see the same on my club lake soon.

As for hooks, barbless really dont do more damage, only hook I remember was the Rob Maylin bent hook which was an absolute no no!

what's a ''pot noodle carper''

what is everyone getting at here as it seems like a very generalising go at some sort of lower breed of angler

I don't mean you - that's just the flavour I'm getting

Does using modern 3.5lb test curve rods make somebody of a lower standing

And don't you find (as I have) that bad and angling often comes from the ''more experienced'' crowd who should know better, got lazy and refuse to change habits?

I don't think experienced anglers often have much to offer (other than whingeing)

Again I am discussing the flavour of the thread, NOT having a pop at you specifically mate

I have no idea what this thread is about anymore, does anybody else? Is it about rods? ''psycho lunatics'', 

but do you really think a 3.5lb test curve ROD ''causes mouth damage'' - and not the ANGLER!?

PS barbless hooks DO cause a lot of dreadful issues, slipping about and cutting poor carp's mouths - a PROPERLY TINY whisker barb is correct for carp, carefully removed WITH FORCEPS and then wound treated - 

the non use of carp medi kits (which I use on everything I catch including bream) is a far higher contributor to mouth damage than any rod will ever be, perhaps save for a shark rod

Test curves are the most laughable load of tripe since forever - as I said above a split cane avon rod has a higher pull strength than a 3.75lb test curve distance carp rod - I see many ''pot noodle carper'' youngsters using ''brutal broom sticks'' of 3.5lb (shock horror) and playing fish beautifully with zero issues - I far more often see, as I say, ''experts'' behaving badly and lazily

[jules007]

10 hours ago, yonny said:

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

Setting myself up for a slap here having just got 10ft 3.5lb rods, TBH i was hoping they would be on the soft side of 3.5 but they are not, i wont be keeping them any time but if i do happen to hook a carp it will be played with care, like a few have said its getting hard to get what you really would like unless willing to pay a huge price TBH i have a lovely set of 11ft 2.5lb rods that i was told "too soft" i think i will be going back to these rods 

[OldBoy]

16 minutes ago, Barney2 said:

what's a ''pot noodle carper''

what is everyone getting at here as it seems like a very generalising go at some sort of lower breed of angler

I don't mean you - that's just the flavour I'm getting

Does using modern 3.5lb test curve rods make somebody of a lower standing

And don't you find (as I have) that bad and angling often comes from the ''more experienced'' crowd who should know better, got lazy and refuse to change habits?

I don't think experienced anglers often have much to offer (other than whingeing)

Again I am discussing the flavour of the thread, NOT having a pop at you specifically mate

I have no idea what this thread is about anymore, does anybody else? Is it about rods? ''psycho lunatics'', 

but do you really think a 3.5lb test curve ROD ''causes mouth damage'' - and not the ANGLER!?

PS barbless hooks DO cause a lot of dreadful issues, slipping about and cutting poor carp's mouths - a PROPERLY TINY whisker barb is correct for carp, carefully removed WITH FORCEPS and then wound treated - 

the non use of carp medi kits (which I use on everything I catch including bream) is a far higher contributor to mouth damage than any rod will ever be, perhaps save for a shark rod

Test curves are the most laughable load of tripe since forever - as I said above a split cane avon rod has a higher pull strength than a 3.75lb test curve distance carp rod - I see many ''pot noodle carper'' youngsters using ''brutal broom sticks'' of 3.5lb (shock horror) and playing fish beautifully with zero issues - I far more often see, as I say, ''experts'' behaving badly and lazily

lol, best get back to whatever world you actually live in mate??

I think you seriously have some mental health issues, if you are actually an angler, get on the bank and enjoy the nice weather next week 👍

Edited 54 minutes ago by OldBoy
typo