HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[salokcinnodrog]

'Braid' is a problem, as there is a difference between hooklink braid, and mainline braid, and even various manufacturers or tackle brands braids. Mainline braid is cutting, it's not designed for hooklinks (actually nor are many hooklink braids, being designed for upholstery).

Years ago I played around with a Drennan hooklink braid, in 8-12lb versions, that I felt was too thin, too 'sharp' and likely to cut. 

For years I have used Kryston hooklinks, from the original Merlin, which was also sold by Carp-R-Us (Wizzard?) when it was changed to current Merlin, Supersilk, and Silkworm. I found Supersilk was another very thin diameter braid that gave me worries, as were 15lb versions of Merlin. I only use 25lb for that reason.

Supersilk was white, although it did take on bottom colour, but I would get hooklink twist.

I still use Merlin, although I was concerned when Dave Chilton sold Kryston, enough to buy up all of the Merlin we had in stock at the shop I worked in. 

I do have a spool of ESP camo sink link, which I bought to make a tackle order £100 for free shipping. That is used on Multi-rigs.

Rigwise, I use braids straight through, or as the end part of a combi-rig. 

I'm also of the bigger hook size, 4's and 6's and have been for years, at least since 2008, with pop-ups and bottom baits.

Having a size 8 to remove that is buried up to the eye, leaving almost nothing to snip with side cutters or grip with forceps is not fun. 

3 hours ago, Barney2 said:

I also suspect you have knotless slippage issues, knotless knot with braid should always be glued or the hook moves around too much with the braid slipping up and down..

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The knotless knot does not slip, and I have not superglued it. I have used knotless knots for over 20years, both with and without tubing to cover it as a line aligner.

In fact I avoid superglue around knots as it prevents movement, and can cause the knot to fracture and break.

[Barney2]

Maybe I’ve tried more hooklinks than you mate (like literally everything on the market far and wide for 35 years).. some hooklinks with knotless definitely slip around, especially if the eye is big.. the simple test is to put some tension in and watch how the hook behaves/ moves out of line.. superglue (the right proper pure cyanoacrylate) doesn’t cause materials to fracture, it improves knots but it must be a pure superglue not a cheap one.. Gorilla and Zap are the ones.

As I said most coated braids have a horrible rough thin braid core, and that is always asking for trouble with soft mouthed carp

try the PB Jellywire it’s your best hope in 35lb

[salokcinnodrog]

4 minutes ago, Barney2 said:

Maybe I’ve tried more hooklinks than you mate (like literally everything on the market far and wide for 35 years).. some hooklinks with knotless definitely slip around, especially if the eye is big.. the simple test is to put some tension in and watch how the hook behaves/ moves out of line.. superglue (the right proper pure cyanoacrylate) doesn’t cause materials to fracture, it improves knots but it must be a pure superglue not a cheap one.. Gorilla and Zap are the ones.

As I said most coated braids have a horrible rough thin braid core, and that is always asking for trouble with soft mouthed carp

try the PB Jellywire it’s your best hope in 35lb

I somehow doubt you have tested more hooklinks. Firstly i have been fishing since the 1970's, and I tested every hooklink and mainline that came into the tackle shop, braids, coated braids, mono, fluorocarbon and sent a few representatives away with a flea in their ear.

I even went so far as to have used kite string, dental floss, or old enough to use dacron.

Do NOT superglue knots, it causes them to fracture, water is not good with superglue, no matter what brand, and it puts fish off. Water or moisture is why superglue is used on cuts often instead of sutures, or stitches, so it will fall off.

Superglue is effective for bonding various materials, including plastic, metal, and even medical applications, but its use on fishing line should be approached with caution, you need the flexibility on a knot, or the braid near the eye of the hook.

[Barney2]

Millions of people have been using superglue on knots for decades.. it’s been tested and retested since the 50s and 60s and is absolutely more than fine fine in the right place lit does nothing whatsoever to harm lines, make them brittle or weaken them

as for ‘putting carp off’

Id say the 10K carp my 77 year old lake complex builder, aquaculturist and tackle shop owner would disagree with that he always glued his links on rather than swivels, and even glued baits together

 

Edited Wednesday at 17:41 by Barney2

[salokcinnodrog]

3 minutes ago, Barney2 said:

Millions of people have been using superglue on knots for decades.. it’s been tested and retested since the 50s and 60s and is absolutely more than fine fine in the right place lit does nothing whatsoever  to harm lines, make them brittle or weaken them, as for ‘putting carp off ‘well that is just laughable sorry but it really is beyond nonsense

 

Even Google will tell you never to superglue knots, so sorry, your response is the laughable reply:

"Don't do this. First, super glue has solvents in it that can really compromise your material. Second, you should be leaving a tail on all your knots so they don't come undone"

Or another "Superglue is effective for bonding various materials, including plastic, metal, and even medical applications, but its use on fishing line should be approached with caution. "

Millions of people? OK, bearing in mind that there are 3million freshwater anglers in the UK, over 2million use superglue? I somehow think not.

"warning with superglue

6 Nov 2019 — The degradation products of ethyl/methyl cyanoacetate derived glues are quite toxic to aquatic organisms"

There you go, perfectly valid genuine reasons, backed up by fact not to use superglue.

 

 

[framey]

Can’t be bothered to read back as I can smell an argument brewing lol

whilst I have never had a knotless knot slip per se 

they do twist around the hook shank unless, you whip back up the shank a turn or 2.

most people won’t see it as the knot is covered by a bit of tubing.

I used to use superglue but it just goes off in the tackle box and leaks everywhere so now don’t bother 👍🫣

 

when I was a lot younger 

we did a job at Loctite when it was based in Welwyn garden city and I was given a few tubes of it, one of the boffs there used it for fishing.

 

[Barney2]

I didn’t want to get into a nerdy spin off sorry

I do have sound experience of VERY soft mouthed carp on a silty as hell ancient sand pit

avoid curve shank hooks and use a very smooth material link.. none of this rough surface thin rubbish

the honcho was right a lot of braids including coated are built on mainline braid

vile mass produced overpriced and all wrong as a hook link

Better off using Amnesia if any doubt, see how you get on.. ESP loaded (use the SOFT) makes a very good link UNSTRIPPED; as well.. I found the black one best, green and brown a bit too thick and delicate coating

dont be afraid to keep things simple, ESPECIALLY on hard lakes!!

I never have anything on hooklink just a very minimal helicopter with NON LEAD weight

[yonny]

Just had a read back through this thread and one thing that's not mentioned (unless I missed it) is the size of the carp being caught.

Catching small carp on big carp tackle is imo a prime cause of mouth damage. Even with lighter gear, care needs to be taken so as not to damage the mouth of smaller carp.

I don't bother with superglue personally. Not sure why folks are getting wound up about the should/shouldn't of it. Most of my fishing is done with pop ups although I have experimented with very fine braids in bags. Never had an issue with mouth damage. I always use shrink tube to extend the hook shank which I think helps. I'm normally fishing for bigger carp anyway so mouth damage tends not to be a problem.

[salokcinnodrog]

27 minutes ago, yonny said:

Just had a read back through this thread and one thing that's not mentioned (unless I missed it) is the size of the carp being caught.

Catching small carp on big carp tackle is imo a prime cause of mouth damage. Even with lighter gear, care needs to be taken so as not to damage the mouth of smaller carp.

I don't bother with superglue personally. Not sure why folks are getting wound up about the should/shouldn't of it. Most of my fishing is done with pop ups although I have experimented with very fine braids in bags. Never had an issue with mouth damage. I always use shrink tube to extend the hook shank which I think helps. I'm normally fishing for bigger carp anyway so mouth damage tends not to be a problem.

I don't think that you missed it, unless I am blind as well...

The size of the fish is a big consideration. The BHR supposedly caused loads of mouth damage, I can't argue that, but I personally never found any on the 20lb + I was fishing for. 

'Bait reliant' or 'overstocked' waters I'm sure also get fish with mouth damage more than those with plenty of natural food. They may be getting hooked more frequently than those than don't need bait.

I found loads of fish with mouth damage on a water where 10lb was a good fish. Match anglers, those getting into carp fishing, 'pleasure' anglers, all types of (barbless) hooks were being used. 

I think that the knotless knot slippage issue is down to tying, not superglue to hold it, but taking the coils down the shank. I always used the hair exit point as opposite between the point and barb of the hook. That can be as many as 20coils! Those that use 3 or 4, maybe 7 it will slip.

As for braids in the mouth, hookholds and helping to reduce ejection, I have used line aligners for years, whenever Jim Gibbinson first wrote about it, however many years ago, and extended the hookshank with tubing.

The superglue and braid issue. I'm sorry, I have tested it, yes it does cause knots to fracture. You look at a hooked fish, as you play it, it changes direction. The hooklink to hook knot, or other attachment, moves with those changes. If it is rigid, held in place, it can't. The fracture point is either at the eye of the hook, or just above the top of the superglue, the places that need movement.

 

As for hooklink braid, I think Dave Chilton mentioned years ago that he was looking at materials used in the upholstery industry and went to them for the original hooklinks.

[yonny]

7 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

The superglue and braid issue. I'm sorry, I have tested it, yes it does cause knots to fracture.

Give it a rest lads.

Barney2 has said he's used it for years without issues.

You say you've not used it for years without issues.

Just agree to disagree. No-one cares.

[salokcinnodrog]

53 minutes ago, yonny said:

Give it a rest lads.

Barney2 has said he's used it for years without issues.

You say you've not used it for years without issues.

Just agree to disagree. No-one cares.

I was making my point, backed up with experiments and views.

You know me and testing; rigs, hooks, braids get tested, I don't just go on hearsay. 

When I lose fish to a 'tackle failure' I want to find out why. Is it a 'one off'? Is it a faulty dodgy component or my fault. In this case why should I lose fish on a hooklink I've been using when I've had no problems before, what is the difference? The difference was superglue. I'd actually been trying the superglue stiffened section of hooklink against my standard braid rigs.

[yonny]

24 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I was making my point

So was Barney2.

It's a difference in opinion. Get over it.

[Barney2]

Did matey mention what main line he is using? I went back to an old reliable stretchy line I’m not going to open that can and name it

light tackle is murky water I think far too much is made of test curves and not enough about line stretch

cheers all a little tussle of opinions is healthy enough

[kevtaylor]

12 hours ago, Barney2 said:

dont be afraid to keep things simple, ESPECIALLY on hard lakes!!

I like this, when the fish have seen it all I find myself tying a standard hair with a bottom bait and tiny funnel web of crumb- simple as it gets, and works 👍

No baiting just a trap in the zone.

[elmoputney]

I can't help thinking supple uncoated braid causes damage, especially if you have a big lead swinging about 4 inches from the fishes face, but yeah most fish on my syndicate with mouth damage came from when the lake used to be a match lake, we are now trying to catch them ones and retire them to another pond.

[kevtaylor]

23 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I can't help thinking supple uncoated braid causes damage, especially if you have a big lead swinging about 4 inches from the fishes face, but yeah most fish on my syndicate with mouth damage came from when the lake used to be a match lake, we are now trying to catch them ones and retire them to another pond.

Friend of mine was getting mouth damage in Italy, problem seemed to be the 15lb supple braid cutting the corners of the mouth.  Think he just upped the BS, it was odd and out the blue - no previous issues.

🤷‍♂️

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, kevtaylor said:

Friend of mine was getting mouth damage in Italy, problem seemed to be the 15lb supple braid cutting the corners of the mouth.  Think he just upped the BS, it was odd and out the blue - no previous issues.

🤷‍♂️

Kind of like a Chelsea smile???? It's why I stopped using uncoated braid, it happened to me. Now I've got the double beep shock rig I can use any rig I want with a mesh bag, usually a spinner tbh 😉if it ain't broke and all that.