PH shift groundbait?

[elmoputney]

36 minutes ago, emmcee said:

 

Maybe the finding's didn't warrant writing about, I don't know.  but I'd be quite confident it's been done and if it worked the carpvine would have been buzzing as nothing stays quiet for long in the carp world. 

On my old syndicate,  one of the members had a bait brain second to none and was a regular contributor to big carp magazine  years back. I tried reading it and it fried my brain. I used to say that he knew too much as he was always concocting this or that and on paper he had or should have had the best bait in the world but he used to blank his butt off. 

I've also read an E book by Tim Richardson (think that's his name) and that will fry your brain too. And if I'm honest I put a few things into practice and it didn't make a blind bit of difference.  

 

While I do know it has already been done in the past, I also think it's not really in any bait companies interest to research the use of compost as a groundbait so I doubt they would research it heavily or want there anglers promoting its use , in essence I think it could be a useful tool when it comes to creating your own spots you don't want others to know about or maybe getting fish to start visiting an unfancied area more regularly, 

I don't claim to be a bait expert I quickly gave up rolling my own but if there is an extra tool I can add to the kit then I won't poo poo it out of turn, I just think it may be worth investigating a bit to see if there is anything in it 

I do agree the subject of bait making gets very technical and a lot goes over my head but if it's simple enough to understand then I don't mind looking into it, I don't get to fish as much as I would like these days so I do the next best thing read listen and try to learn stuff and have ideas for future sessions, 

[yonny]

17 hours ago, emmcee said:

Tim Richardson

Complete lunatic.

He hacked one of the other forums after he was banned so all you could see when you logged on was a massive photo of some turnips lol. No joke.

He was on the X Factor too. A link was posted to the footage and he went completely mental, proper meltdown, got the solicitors involved and everything (come to think of it that melt-down might have lead to the hacking).

His writings are well known to go on and on and on...... lots of it drivel, with seemingly hundreds of over-priced, over-complicated recipes. I can see why you didn't like it mate.

Bait can be as complicated as we want to make it but the absolutely key basics are covered very, very well in the bait chapter of Mike Willmott's first book Carp Life. Really good chapter, dead simple, and covers all the really, really important stuff.

[emmcee]

9 hours ago, yonny said:

 

Bait can be as complicated as we want to make it but the absolutely key basics are covered very, very well in the bait chapter of Mike Willmott's first book Carp Life. Really good chapter, dead simple, and covers all the really, really important stuff.

One of Mike's recipes is in my current bait. Been using it for over 15yrs now and it's still as good now as when I first used it. And yes a very good chapter indeed on bait. 

[salokcinnodrog]

Thing is with any bait, boilie or groundbait, you have to put it where the fish will eat it.

My favourite groundbait for years was a very simple mix of chopped and liquidised worm, molehill soil and plain brown crumb, with maggots or worms on the hook.

There is no point in adding anything else as the salt in proprietary groundbaits kills the worms, including the chopped pieces.

 

I have tried various liquidised ingredients in boilies, squid, liver, maggots and worms. If you do use them, you don't want too much in there. A mix of squid, maggots, and liver with some semolina works, and going over into 

 

[emmcee]

13 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Thing is with any bait, boilie or groundbait, you have to put it where the fish will eat it. 

 

Totally agree but You also need the fish to want to eat it and find it an acceptable food source. After all you can put any bait you like on a spot but If the fish don't want it then they won't eat it, simple. 

[elmoputney]

26 minutes ago, emmcee said:

Totally agree but You also need the fish to want to eat it and find it an acceptable food source. After all you can put any bait you like on a spot but If the fish don't want it then they won't eat it, simple. 

But if you can draw them into the area to investigate you are more likely to get them interested and I would suggest most people these days are using an acceptable food source, and even if they aren't interested at that point they will know its there for the future, and overtime it may become a spot they love to feed at, 

[ouchthathurt]

On 04/11/2019 at 08:29, commonly said:

In no way whatsoever do I know difference this may make chemically, a fish farmer I know, swears by rock salt as an attraction. I tried it a few times with no success, but in theory wouldn't that alter the alkalinity of the surrounding water, whilst not providing much in the way of food source, hence your Bait would be present for any curious fish!! 

Just throwing it out there elmo

Rock salt (any salt) is a good attractor as all fish need to replace salts lost through osmosis. Carp are always losing vital salts required for metabolism and isotonic balance (like humans that require approx 1.2-3g of salt a day to replace what we lose) as the salt is absorbed into the carps surrounding environment. If you have two fluids, like in the case of a carp, the surrounding water and their blood stream the two fluids will always try to balance out (trying to simplify this!) So a fluid with higher salt concentration like the carps blood will lose salt to the surrounding water. This is why saltwater eels change and look different to freshwater eels, they are the same fish, but when entering salt water, their skin thickens, the slime thickens and other changes happen to minimise this osmosis - balancing - otherwise the high concentration of salt in the sea would travel over into the bloodstream and cause excessive salt build up in the eels bloodstream leading to organ failure and death. The carp will find salt attractive as it's an essential ingredient in their basic mineral needs for health yet it's a tricky element to find in their natural environment for the most part. 

amino acids are an essential ingredient required to break down protein chains to make them digestible. Worms are said to be high in amino acids. Carp are thought to be able to detect these acids in tiny concentrations, it's a fascinating subject, but only the carp really know, and not one carp will talk - even under torture! They enjoy waterboarding for some reason...

The use of compost or soil as a groundbait has potential, after all soil is a recognised groundbait for perch - one handful of soil holds a high number of organisms etc than the population of the UK - soil is a living entity. Even the clouding or darkening of the water (if clear) will act as an attraction as carp may believe it's caused by other feeding fish and investigate. It's a new smell, something different, the curiosity factor may be of bigger benefit than any Ph change. I'm not sure you would be able to affect a noticeable difference in PH as it would soon be absorbed into the water column. It might need a large amount of soil to make a difference? I don't know, whether the acid and alkali would just mix so the difference is negligible... Yet carp can supposedly detect minute changes and particles so the negligent change of PH in an area may be all you need... 

[yonny]

37 minutes ago, ouchthathurt said:

Worms are said to be high in amino acids.

All animals are built from amino acids (proteins).

[carpepecheur]

If there is one thing that I have too many of and that is moles. The thought of transporting barrow loads of this freely available stuff that they create to my lake and catching loads of carp is very attractive. I have read a lot of posts on the subject and though those posts contain lots of scientific terms and reasoned speculation, I cannot find a shred of science that actually backs up any of the theories proposed.

 

I have tried the following experiment. I chuck a bucket of bait into some shallow water at the edge of the lake where the bottom is clearly visible. I have tested cheap, expensive and even homemade boilies, cooked maize, raw maize, and various other particles. The next day, without fail ALL the bait has disappeared. I was hoping to prove that one bait was more attractive than another but failed miserably. Of course I cannot guarantee that carp are responsible. I am not sure what conclusion to draw but I remain to be convinced that amino acids, salt, attractors or other enhancements make a huge difference.

 

I think the most significant thing is how long you leave your bait in position, but even that is just a guess.

[elmoputney]

I was walking to the canteen this morning at work and I spotted some lovely mole hills 😁

Seeing how the lake is now fully booked Sunday I may just just try it, will take a bucket and spade to work tomorrow 😁

[yonny]

1 hour ago, carpepecheur said:

I think the most significant thing is how long you leave your bait in position, but even that is just a guess.

For me the most significant thing is putting your bait where the carp like to feed.

Your bait could be in position for weeks. If the carp are not prepared to feed there, or worse; they're not there at all, it's all a waste of time.

[salokcinnodrog]

2 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

If there is one thing that I have too many of and that is moles. The thought of transporting barrow loads of this freely available stuff that they create to my lake and catching loads of carp is very attractive. I have read a lot of posts on the subject and though those posts contain lots of scientific terms and reasoned speculation, I cannot find a shred of science that actually backs up any of the theories proposed.

 

I have tried the following experiment. I chuck a bucket of bait into some shallow water at the edge of the lake where the bottom is clearly visible. I have tested cheap, expensive and even homemade boilies, cooked maize, raw maize, and various other particles. The next day, without fail ALL the bait has disappeared. I was hoping to prove that one bait was more attractive than another but failed miserably. Of course I cannot guarantee that carp are responsible. I am not sure what conclusion to draw but I remain to be convinced that amino acids, salt, attractors or other enhancements make a huge difference.

 

I think the most significant thing is how long you leave your bait in position, but even that is just a guess.

My big worry is obvious.

 

On a serious note with molasses, it is very attractive, high in sugar, carp and other species love it, but without checking I wouldn't know what pH level molasses is?

It would probably mix very well with molehill soil and chopped worm

[ouchthathurt]

10 hours ago, yonny said:

All animals are built from amino acids (proteins).

Fair point! Lol! From what I gather, worms are particularly good at releasing free amino acids into the water column, chopped worm especially - although when you cut a worm it's hardly pumping fluid out everywhere is it? 

10 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

 I remain to be convinced that amino acids, salt, attractors or other enhancements make a huge difference.

While it can be tricky to prove that these additions can be of use, indeed the argument for amino acid use in boiled baits has been going on in bait making circles for ages, some believe that the amino acids help the bait break down protein within the bait making the bait appear more digestible, carp require certain amino acids to aid digestion that they source from their food, so including these in your bait should make it more attractive. Whereas others argue that the boiling process denatures the amino acids, making them worthless. Different amino acids require different temperature ranges to work, so the chances of these conditions being met are slim, it doesn't make it easy to know what to do! 

I add calcium in my baits pre-spawning as calcium is needed in spawn formation, I use salt for the reasons in regards to osmosis I've already stated. I use a bait I've formulated over 15yrs that I'm convinced gives me an edge over other anglers. Yet on my current water, a lad matched my catch rate one session using readymades. I fished for an upper 30 common for years using my own baits yet caught her at 37+ on maggots. I caught my 42+ pb on a readymade pop up and a fluke cast I chucked into no man's land the first night on the lake. 

I still make and use my own bait with added nutrients, amino acids, salt etc as I believe they make a difference. I have seen better results in doing so but is it the bait? Or is it the case of confidence breeding success which leads to further success? As I trust my bait 100%, is it the cause of any captures or is it that I can fish better not worrying about the bait and concentrate on location and other variables? I believe that my bait is attractive, they eat it and I hope and think it's providing the carp with a good spread of protein, nutrients, vitamins, minerals, fats etc so it will be hopefully doing them some good. In the way that other animals (and humans) subconsciously crave and seek out foods containing elements the body is missing, carp will instinctively know that a food source has elements it needs and can't find in nature as easily as presented nicely in a little round package. 

If a carp finds a nice bed of mixed foodstuffs, it will eat it of its hungry enough, these different baits eaten together may even provide a mix of all the different nutrients that it's looking for, but I believe the reason why a good nutritional bait works so well, long term is because it has a good spread of all the required nutrients, whereas something like a readymade is like a sweet - nice smell, lovely taste, could eat a bag or a handful, but you would soon want a nice decent meal with meat veg and spuds. (Protein, vitamins, minerals, fats, carbs and fibre) 

I concede your point that it's speculation, if grounded in scientific research and theory, the carp won't let on, but it's certainly food for thought (excuse the poor pun) and if it gets people thinking then we all can learn from everyone else. 

[yonny]

20 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

I am not sure what conclusion to draw but I remain to be convinced that amino acids, salt, attractors or other enhancements make a huge difference.

I would agree with you that salt and other substances are yet to be proven but I understand that it is scientific fact that AAs are attractive/stimulate feeding in carp and other fish.

[carpepecheur]

20 hours ago, yonny said:

For me the most significant thing is putting your bait where the carp like to feed.

Your bait could be in position for weeks. If the carp are not prepared to feed there, or worse; they're not there at all, it's all a waste of time.

I think that is a senesible approach and it is one that I follow. However, from my simple and rather crude experiment, it  would tend to suggest that providing it is edible, it does not matter where you put your bait or what it is - it will still get eaten eventually. The question I ask myself is that although under test conditions some additives may stimulate a feeding response, how much actual difference does it have in the average lake?

[elmoputney]

Got my bucket of mole muck this morning 

Will get the rest of the Ingredients on the way home 

Some good point made well done all, hopefully I can put them to good use this sunday 

I will add some liquids to the muck later to let it absorb into it, the way I am thinking it's high attraction fairly low food content and it should help me get the maggots on the deck if nothing else, I have started to build up a picture of this lake now I have fished it a good few times so even if I can't spot them I hope to be able to get near them, I am a little concerned the lake is fully booked for 2 nights on Sunday and Monday though, I have a theory it's someone doing an early winter series video or something, as I was all by myself the  last Sunday I was on 

 

[finchey]

43 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Got my bucket of mole muck this morning 

Will get the rest of the Ingredients on the way home 

Some good point made well done all, hopefully I can put them to good use this sunday 

I will add some liquids to the muck later to let it absorb into it, the way I am thinking it's high attraction fairly low food content and it should help me get the maggots on the deck if nothing else, I have started to build up a picture of this lake now I have fished it a good few times so even if I can't spot them I hope to be able to get near them, I am a little concerned the lake is fully booked for 2 nights on Sunday and Monday though, I have a theory it's someone doing an early winter series video or something, as I was all by myself the  last Sunday I was on 

 

It's up to you mate but personally I would run the mole hill soil thought a riddle if you've got one, get rid of all the hard lumps and stones before  you add whatever your adding, that's what I do for my perch fishing. It makes it a lot better to work with but that's only my opinion. Just try it and see what you think. 🙂👍

[yonny]

58 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

how much actual difference does it have in the average lake?

I guess it also depends what can be considered an average lake buddy. For examples, I know you fish big un-pressured inland seas, where here in the UK we tend to fish highly pressured waters with fish that have seen everything. I know for a fact that on many of these UK waters, bait in the wrong place will go un-eaten and rot on the bottom.

[carpepecheur]

Yes that is a good point. I was wanting to ask if anyone had actually seen bait left uneaten after some time. What I would want to do, in the situation you described, is to put some highly attractive bait next to some ordinary bait and see which one was left. If both were left untouched then your comment about location holds (although they might just be overfed anyway), if only the attractve bait was taken that would clinch it for me.

[yonny]

10 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

I was wanting to ask if anyone had actually seen bait left uneaten after some time.

I've seen it on several occasions. On one syndi I saw a bed of boilies go weeks uneaten, they slowly rotted on the deck.

I'm not sure what you would consider 'normal' and 'highly attractive' baits. I only use bait that I consider to be attractive.

There are numerous records of this happening in angling books.

On an overstocked lake I'm sure you're right, bait will get taken almost anywhere. But on lower stocked waters you need to think carefully imo.

[carpepecheur]

What I would like to do on one of the lakes you describe is to put out what you concider to be your best bait alongside some raw maize. If I saw with my own eyes that the best bait had gone and the raw maize left then I would be convinced.

 

As you say, I am on waters that are hardly touched by other anglers so I argue that (for me) it is better to spend 25p per kilo than £10 per kilo on bait. I can then afford to prebait as much as I want without breaking the bank and that seems to work for me.

[salokcinnodrog]

46 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

Yes that is a good point. I was wanting to ask if anyone had actually seen bait left uneaten after some time. What I would want to do, in the situation you described, is to put some highly attractive bait next to some ordinary bait and see which one was left. If both were left untouched then your comment about location holds (although they might just be overfed anyway), if only the attractve bait was taken that would clinch it for me.

I'm positive that Halibut pellets are attractive, I have seen them sit uneaten in an area for a month or so, in fact I put pictures on here. It was in fact in an area that fish visited, until the excess of pellets, when they avoided the spot for ages after. The excess of pellets 'killed' the lakebed for a while.

To some extent 'non-attractive' bait is tested, because of curiosity. Is it a possible food item? As the legend Rod Hutchinson said "if a stone is covered in flavour, is fished on a short hair and sucked in, then the chances are you will hook the fish".

 

Some spots are 'natural food areas', some are 'baited food areas', some are both. Fish on areas that are 'baited food' areas may become wary on that spot, testing every bait, be it particle, pellet, boilie, or even groundbait. Fish feeding head down snuffling or troughing through groundbait may be sucking in just groundbait, not any boilie. 

You want a bait that gets fish feeding on everything, hence our experimentation with various additives, when to be honest, I have found nothing that matches liquidised worms and maggots. 'Natural' extracts?

 

[emmcee]

4 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

Yes that is a good point. I was wanting to ask if anyone had actually seen bait left uneaten after some time. What I would want to do, in the situation you described, is to put some highly attractive bait next to some ordinary bait and see which one was left. If both were left untouched then your comment about location holds (although they might just be overfed anyway), if only the attractve bait was taken that would clinch it for me.

I was pre-baiting one close season with my chosen particle mix and boilie in a marginal snag and could clearly see the bottom. Well after a few weeks it was clear for anyone to see that this spot was being baited (glowing like a beacon). Well I turned up one day to see the spot covered in chopped boilie(not mine). I decided to still bait this spot and on my next visit to inspect the spot, it looked just like it did before I put my bait over the spot. They, in my opinion and because i could clearly see the spot had literally sieved everyone of my boilies and all the particle and once again left all the chops. 

If i recall this bait was there for a few more baiting sessions and only got mopped up once the bream had found the bait. 

I also knew that my bait, if not eaten would pop up after between 3 and 7 days , depending on water temperature.  

So if a Carp doesn't want to eat something then it won't, regardless it being a feeding spot or not. I dread to think how many times you go into a swim , find a spot and fish over someone else's bait without knowing.   

[elmoputney]

8 hours ago, finchey said:

It's up to you mate but personally I would run the mole hill soil thought a riddle if you've got one, get rid of all the hard lumps and stones before  you add whatever your adding, that's what I do for my perch fishing. It makes it a lot better to work with but that's only my opinion. Just try it and see what you think. 🙂👍

Thanks for that I read about riddling it earlier, so will give it a go cheers, 

I had to do a quick rush through the tackle shop earlier went for some sticky manilla stick mix to bind and sticky baits hydro ink, to compliment the mole mix smells fowl the ink, will make a mucky mole moosh though 😁

I will add a few other goodies just before kick off on match day and pray for the best 🙏

[elmoputney]

Starting to take shape now just going to add maggots and boilie crumb tomorrow, smells wonderful won't be too much food but hopefully lots of attraction in the swim