Rods - am I missing a trick?

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, chillfactor said:

At distance longer rods will be far more accurate & there's No way a shorter rod will out perform a longer for distance.  Bigger the  arc the further your cast . 

How long does a 12ft rod become during the cast ?  

 

I dont think anyone has suggested a shorter rod will out perform a 12 foot rod at distance, 

But in reverse surely a bigger arc won't be as accurate at shorter distances as the lead has more work to do before it hits the water ? (this is just my thoughts BTW) 

[carpyian]

1 minute ago, elmoputney said:

I dont think anyone has suggested a shorter rod will out perform a 12 foot rod at distance, 

But in reverse surely a bigger arc won't be as accurate at shorter distances as the lead has more work to do before it hits the water ? (this is just my thoughts BTW) 

I understand what you are saying here but surely we all have one technique of casting so if im casting a rod 10ft or 12ft say 70 yards the outcome in accuracy would be the same but if I was to cast the same rods to 100 yards then surely the 10ft rod would be less accurate as id have to give it more power to reach the distance just my thoughts 

[oscsha]

8 hours ago, oscsha said:

I think that comes down to type of rod (quality , makeup etc) , if say the max casting ability of your set up is 90 mtrs then its never going to be accurate at casting 80 - 90 meters compared to a set up thats capable of casting 120 meters  .

Not sure I agree with a 12 or 13ft rod being more accurate I'd like to know your theory on this .

 

[chillfactor]

If your only talking a flick for a cast then most rods should be equal , But once you start loading a rod it's a different ball game . 

 

[elmoputney]

Just going to add on my last comment 

Suppose you are trying to cast under an overhanging tree at say 40yds 

Surely the smaller rods arc will mean the lead is travelling closer to the water meaning the angle to get it as close under the tree is possible is higher? 

And the 12 footer the lead will travel farther away from the water increasing the chance of clipping the tree, 

Think of a 25 yard free kick with a wall of adults and a wall of kids, you can give it more power over the kids rather than having to attempt an up and down type free kick over the adult wall (I hope that makes sense) 

What I think I mean is 12 foot rod is more likely to hit the crossbar 😀

[carpyian]

the thing with rods is you buy the best rod for you but when I buy rods I buy the best allrounder for my fishing yes 10ft rods look like a good idea but if I had them id always be thinking of the day im fishing for a few days and the fish are at distance and im not able to reach them so id rather have a 12ft rod that gives me more options 

[oscsha]

1 minute ago, elmoputney said:

Just going to add on my last comment 

Suppose you are trying to cast under an overhanging tree at say 40yds 

Surely the smaller rods arc will mean the lead is travelling closer to the water meaning the angle to get it as close under the tree is possible is higher? 

And the 12 footer the lead will travel farther away from the water increasing the chance of clipping the tree, 

Think of a 25 yard free kick with a wall of adults and a wall of kids, you can give it more power over the kids rather than having to attempt an up and down type free kick over the adult wall (I hope that makes sense) 

What I think I mean is 12 foot rod is more likely to hit the crossbar 😀

how long  is your drop  swing it in 

[chillfactor]

6 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Just going to add on my last comment 

Suppose you are trying to cast under an overhanging tree at say 40yds 

Surely the smaller rods arc will mean the lead is travelling closer to the water meaning the angle to get it as close under the tree is possible is higher? 

And the 12 footer the lead will travel farther away from the water increasing the chance of clipping the tree, 

 

It doesn't make any difference your still be coming down at a similar angle & still aim to land in the same place ..... the release has far more to do with lead angle than rod arc. 

[elmoputney]

Just now, chillfactor said:

It doesn't make any difference your still be coming down at a similar angle & still aim to land in the same place ..... the release has far more to do with lead angle than rod arc. 

Just suppose you release them at exactly the same point the 12 foot rod will travel higher than the 10ft so there fore out of say 100 casts the 10 foot rod would be closer to the tree more often than the 12 footer as the angle it would enter the water means it will go further under the tree as the 12 foot lead would enter the water at a slightly straighter angle therefore dropping shorter 

[oscsha]

1 minute ago, elmoputney said:

Just suppose you release them at exactly the same point the 12 foot rod will travel higher than the 10ft so there fore out of say 100 casts the 10 foot rod would be closer to the tree more often than the 12 footer as the angle it would enter the water means it will go further under the tree as the 12 foot lead would enter the water at a slightly straighter angle therefore dropping shorter 

But isn't that the point you wouldn't release at the same point , you alter the lead drop speed release etc depending on the equipment and situation .

[elmoputney]

2 minutes ago, oscsha said:

But isn't that the point you wouldn't release at the same point , you alter the lead drop speed release etc depending on the equipment and situation .

No i get that but I am just suggesting that if you did have a test that used identical conditions then the 10ft would go under the fictional crossbar more often than the 12ft

[chillfactor]

 what ever rod your casting with , your be aiming to land the lead in the same place... most people aim to cast at around 45° having a shorter rod will not make that cast easier because of a lower lead arc .

So if you clip your shorter rod up at 60 yards do you expect it to drop short compared to a longer rod clipped up at 60 yards? 

[oscsha]

2 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

No i get that but I am just suggesting that if you did have a test that used identical conditions then the 10ft would go under the fictional crossbar more often than the 12ft

Oh I see from a geometry point of view yes , although you could move further away so the angle is the same , once the lead hits the water the difference would be so minimal anyway I can't see it making any difference , will the two leads enter the water at the same velocity ?

[chillfactor]

55 minutes ago, carpyian said:

I understand what you are saying here but surely we all have one technique of casting so if im casting a rod 10ft or 12ft say 70 yards the outcome in accuracy would be the same but if I was to cast the same rods to 100 yards then surely the 10ft rod would be less accurate as id have to give it more power to reach the distance just my thoughts 

Spot on 

[elmoputney]

4 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

 what ever rod your casting with , your be aiming to land the lead in the same place... most people aim to cast at around 45° having a shorter rod will not make that cast easier because of a lower lead arc .

So if you clip your shorter rod up at 60 yards do you expect it to drop short compared to a longer rod clipped up at 60 yards? 

In theory I think the shorter rod would have a more direct route to the 60 yard spot so will therefore be more likely to travel further 

 

10 minutes ago, oscsha said:

Oh I see from a geometry point of view yes , although you could move further away so the angle is the same , once the lead hits the water the difference would be so minimal anyway I can't see it making any difference , will the two leads enter the water at the same velocity ?

That's a question for this time of night

Again I would assume that the 12foot rod would have lost more momentum as it travelled further to get to the same point

 

[smufter]

10 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

Well that was aimed at someone in particular - I.e not you, just someone who argues the toss no matter what's said. 👍

Argues the toss??? I don't think anyone on here, (except you obviously), could ever call me argumentative...... I just said I find shorter rods more accurate. 

I hardly call that argumentative......?????????????

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by smufter

[emmcee]

6 hours ago, elmoputney said:

Just going to add on my last comment 

Suppose you are trying to cast under an overhanging tree at say 40yds 

Surely the smaller rods arc will mean the lead is travelling closer to the water meaning the angle to get it as close under the tree is possible is higher? 

 

In my opinion the arc of the rod has no bearing on it.

When you let go of the lead will determine how high the lead goes, whether that's a 6 foot rod all the way up to a 13 foot rod. 

So casting under a tree canopy at 40yds is all down to the individuals casting technique,  not the rod. 

[elmoputney]

2 hours ago, emmcee said:

In my opinion the arc of the rod has no bearing on it.

When you let go of the lead will determine how high the lead goes, whether that's a 6 foot rod all the way up to a 13 foot rod. 

So casting under a tree canopy at 40yds is all down to the individuals casting technique,  not the rod. 

I get that some people will have better technique and we don't cast exactly the same each time,and this is just a Fag packet theory that could probably never be proved,

but in a perfect situation with everything identical, I think with a shorter rod the lead would go to point B closer to the water more directly, meaning it would arrive at point b and continue to travel towards the bottom and push further under the tree as the angle it enters the water would mean it would continue further than a longer rod which will have travelled in a bigger arc meaning it will enter the water at a bigger angle and drop shorter than the short rod 

I don't know if I can explain it much better than that but. That's my theory

[oscsha]

2 hours ago, elmoputney said:

I get that some people will have better technique and we don't cast exactly the same each time,and this is just a Fag packet theory that could probably never be proved,

but in a perfect situation with everything identical, I think with a shorter rod the lead would go to point B closer to the water more directly, meaning it would arrive at point b and continue to travel towards the bottom and push further under the tree as the angle it enters the water would mean it would continue further than a longer rod which will have travelled in a bigger arc meaning it will enter the water at a bigger angle and drop shorter than the short rod 

I don't know if I can explain it much better than that but. That's my theory

Would the angle change when I wear my stilettos due to the extra height

P.s I get what your saying in theory . 

[elmoputney]

1 minute ago, oscsha said:

Would the angle change when I wear my stilettos due to the extra height

P.s I get what your saying in theory . 

Yes but as long as you wear them for both it should still give you the same results and stronger calves 👍

And thanks its been tough to explain 😁

[salokcinnodrog]

7 hours ago, emmcee said:

In my opinion the arc of the rod has no bearing on it.

When you let go of the lead will determine how high the lead goes, whether that's a 6 foot rod all the way up to a 13 foot rod. 

So casting under a tree canopy at 40yds is all down to the individuals casting technique,  not the rod. 

The angle you cast at will determine how far under the trees the lead will go, and the distance you cast.

 

Working on ballistic theory, with no external forces, the study of bullets, leads, shapes etc, the lead being cast at 45 degrees will travel (cast) furthest, it will also hit the water at the same angle you cast at. Cast at 60 degrees, the lead will leave the rod tip at that angle, and hit the water at that angle, however 60degrees will mean it will dive down in the water at that same angle, not going under the trees as far as a cast at a lower angle. 

Feathering the cast can change the angle, as can hitting the clip. Hit the clip, and instead of the lead carrying on at the same angle it will swing down on an arc, further reducing the distance under the tree.

13 hours ago, elmoputney said:

In theory I think the shorter rod would have a more direct route to the 60 yard spot so will therefore be more likely to travel further 

 

That's a question for this time of night

Again I would assume that the 12foot rod would have lost more momentum as it travelled further to get to the same point

 

 

It is pretty standard knowledge that dependant on you the angler, the longer rod you use to your maximum limits, the further you will cast. The shorter rods have become fashionable, a marketing exercise, in creating new buyers for equipment in most cases. However some swims do not lend themselves to long rods, overhanging trees and the like.

The longer rod has more tip speed, reducing effort to get the same distance over a 10foot rod. Higher tip speed generates casting distance.

[emmcee]

For me it's simple, its horses for courses.  Any amount of accuracy is all down to the angler and their ability and what equipment they are more comfortable with. Someone will be more at home with a 10ft rod than a 12ft rod. I use 12ft rods for all my fishing. I did once buy a 13ft set but literally sold them in a month as I just didn't get on with them. I didn't feel I had balance etc and most certainly lost accuracy with them. Went back to my 12ft rods and could hit a tree line or marker with my usual accuracy.  So I'd say its down to the individuals rather than the fact it's a 10ft or 13ft rod or whatever.  

This is also why I only ever buy custom built rods for my carp fishing. They are built to my specifications.  The real seat is situated on the rod blank to suit the length of my arm/reach . This aids massively in getting the balance right. 

Infact as I started beach fishing last year I brought for the first time, off the shelf rods. I didn't like them but I needed them for my sea fishing so put up with them. I got chatting to my rod builder friend who told me to take them to him. I did this and he moved the reel seat, first cast with the rod and easily gained 30yds on my cast. So balance is a massive thing to aid with distance and accuracy in my opinion.  The thing is, when I left his house I'd ordered a pair of custom built harrison beach casters.  

[yonny]

Agree @emmcee, I have a set of customs that are built for me (my all rounders) but I went for off-the-shelf standard build with my distance rods, I'm convinced it costs me at least 30 yards.

[oscsha]

2 hours ago, Dannygooner said:

Good read this thread. I feel like it boils down to this though, nash like v Nash hate 😂

Just read through it all and although Nash gets mentioned not really sure how you come to that conclusion . Just goes to show how reading forums can give different opinions .

[oscsha]

30 minutes ago, Dannygooner said:

Calm down son. You get quite riled on here don’t you. Maybe you should relax and go do some fishing instead of talking about it 😂

Wow  -- all i said was --Just read through it all and although Nash gets mentioned not really sure how you come to that conclusion . Just goes to show how reading forums can give different opinions .

 

How's that warrant a calm down , think you read far to much into what is written on here , I genuinely didn't see a Nash like vs Nash hate vibe on this thread , you do different opinions thats all .

Now there is no need for YOU to start trying to make it personal all IMO