Weight size for long rigs

[Lumeymorris]

Silly question but I normally fish small 5-6inch rigs so gives never really given it much thought before. When using long hooklinks or long booms do they require heavy leads to work properly or will they work the same? Take the Ronnie rig for example I was fishing it with say a 8inch boom with a 1.5 lead I did mange to catch on it but also received a few minor drop backs that didn't produce nothing which got me thinking was every drop back a carp spitting out the rig?

[cyborx]

i normally fish with a 2.5oz lead, dont like the idea of going and heavier than that.

 

[yonny]

 

15 hours ago, Lumeymorris said:

Take the Ronnie rig for example I was fishing it with say a 8inch boom with a 1.5 lead I did mange to catch on it but also received a few minor drop backs that didn't produce nothing which got me thinking was every drop back a carp spitting out the rig?

I always use bigger leads where possible, I believe they aid hooking. That said, other use little ones and catch..... there's no hard/fast rules mate. I'll reduce the lead size if I'm casting on top of fish or if I'm fishing in very heavy weed but given the choice it'd be 4 oz all the way for me.

[jh92]

16 hours ago, Lumeymorris said:

 also received a few minor drop backs that didn't produce nothing which got me thinking was every drop back a carp spitting out the rig?

Did the indicator rise before the drop back? If it did could it be a carp swimming into the line resulting in moving the lead closer to you giving you the drop back? Just a thought anyway lol

[salokcinnodrog]

I currently use 3.5oz leads almost all the time, mostly because a lot of my fishing is at range.

 

Try using bigger leads on shorter rigs, the runs can be rather impressive😉

 

I think we get done more times than we realise, although strangely I think heavier leads can actually be felt and used to eject the hook, but when the fish aren't used to them, they really do hit home.

 

 

[smufter]

I use the lightest leads I can get away with. Whether this costs me fish or not, I don't know. But the runs I get (when I get them) are usually screamers.

I appreciate what Yonny is saying about a heavier lead possibly aiding hooking, but I utilise the line clip on my rods, and feel that the "ping" as the line leaves the clip has the same effect. I can't go too heavy on my leads as the lake I fish is "silt city". If I'm fishing elsewhere with not so much silt I might up my lead size a little but never more than an ounce (or two at most).

I use fairly heavy rig tubing, and that, allied to the drag of the line through the water and a sharp hook should be enough to set it.

I think.

🙄

Edited May 17, 2018 by smufter

[yonny]

4 hours ago, smufter said:

I use the lightest leads I can get away with.

Here's a little test for you Smufter...... lift your rig/set-up with one finger on the hook point. You'll be able to pick up the 2 oz lead and place it a foot away without getting hurt (or hooked).

Now put on a 4 oz lead and do the same, see how you get on.

[chillfactor]

And if you can do it with a 4oz .... you hooks arent sharp enough 🎣 😲

[salokcinnodrog]

40 minutes ago, yonny said:

Here's a little test for you Smufter...... lift your rig/set-up with one finger on the hook point. You'll be able to pick up the 2 oz lead and place it a foot away without getting hurt (or hooked).

Now put on a 4 oz lead and do the same, see how you get on.

 

9 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

And if you can do it with a 4oz .... you hooks arent sharp enough 🎣 😲

Don't know if anyone remembers the pictures,  I did lift a rig up on my thumb attached to a 3oz lead. Korda Kurve hook, inline lead.

I did try it with a Gardner Mugga at the time, that hurt, and did draw blood.

[cyborx]

7 hours ago, chillfactor said:

And if you can do it with a 4oz .... you hooks arent sharp enough 🎣 😲

if you can do it with a 2.5oz without drawing blood your hooks aren't sharp enough

 

[salokcinnodrog]

7 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

Don't know if anyone remembers the pictures,  I did lift a rig up on my thumb attached to a 3oz lead. Korda Kurve hook, inline lead.

I did try it with a Gardner Mugga at the time, that hurt, and did draw blood.

 

I had used that same inline lead set-up with Drennan Super Specialists, back in the 1990's, I honestly think they were sharper than the Korda Kurvs of the time of that photo. Strangely after that, Korda started selling an improved sharper version!

 

 

[smufter]

18 hours ago, yonny said:

Here's a little test for you Smufter...... lift your rig/set-up with one finger on the hook point. You'll be able to pick up the 2 oz lead and place it a foot away without getting hurt (or hooked).

Now put on a 4 oz lead and do the same, see how you get on.

Do I try that in "fresh air" Yonny, or with 60 yards of line and tubing going through water?????

 

[yonny]

5 hours ago, smufter said:

Do I try that in "fresh air" Yonny, or with 60 yards of line and tubing going through water?????

Carp get caught on light leads every day Smufter so I cannot disagree.... but imo we get done before any line/tubing come into play.

[salokcinnodrog]

1 hour ago, yonny said:

Carp get caught on light leads every day Smufter so I cannot disagree.... but imo we get done before any line/tubing come into play.

I think to some extent, the line resistance actually helps get the hook to hit home, but it is a definite negative on indication at times. 

 

I use a float and the lift method, maybe 1/2-3/4 an ounce next to the float. The actual indication is a wobble, then a lift or slideaway, it is easy to 'lift' or strike into the fish. The positive of close range and light leads.

 

 

[B.C.]

If you are getting single bleeps and think you are getting done by the carp, my first port of call would be to check the hook sharpness. 

I always think a larger lead aids hooking potential... 3oz covers most of my fishing...… 4oz for distance or really close in the margins with large in lines.

I've never considered rig length when choosing lead sizes, perhaps I should?...…. Rig length, for me, is more about whatever I'm fishing over, weed,silt,gravel etc. And the size of the fish present and also bait application....The cleaner the bottom, the shorter I can go..... I keep them fairly short when fishing over particle.... A bit longer if I'm boilie fishing and think they are moving from bait to bait..... I always feel better presented with a longer hooklink, but if the average fish size is small, I think they can spit you out before any weight is engaged, especially when using or incorporating artificial baits which are non food items. Just my op' 😊

[Ginger9991]

If your noticing this on stiff links "booms" then maybe upping your hook size. One of the lads on here mentioned it to me when i was having an issue with "being done" and that pretty much solved it. moving to a 6 from an 8 i believe.

[kevtaylor]

Personally I use heavier leads if I feel the fish are riggy, mega pressured.  So if I'm down Bluebell Lakes 4's and 5's are standard.  if I'm on my syndi main lake 3.5 - 4.

In my mind the lead is the essential element for hooking other than hooks obviously.  Not sure about hook lengths and how that matters with lead sizes, I've seen a fella have 12 fish in 24 hours from a hard water using 1-2 inch hooklinks 3.5 oz leads.  Surely the key here is that its different, the fish couldn't cope with it and that's what matters, not whatever rig fashion and length is said to be the latest wonder.  Oh and that included 2 x 40's so you don't need long lengths for big fish as many dictate, and it was a normal bottom bait rig.

[cyborx]

On 19/05/2018 at 08:41, B.C. said:

 

I always think a larger lead aids hooking potential... 3oz covers most of my fishing...… 4oz for distance or really close in the margins with large in lines.

another factor to consider is the bottom, if you are fishing over a choddy/silty bottom with an inline or drop off system with a 1 1/2oz lead and the lead plugs, suddenly that 1 1/2 oz equates to 3-4 oz, do the same with the current fad for 4 and up and the fish is tethered to well over HALF A POUND effectively.....IMO of course

also,, spend a couple of mins sharpening your hooks till you can prick your finger just by looking at the point i test mine by using the pouch on my catty to shield my finger and if i can feel the point on my skin as i lift the lead clear then it will hook a bony lip no probs.

[B.C.]

7 hours ago, cyborx said:

suddenly that 1 1/2 oz equates to 3-4 oz,

I can see exactly what you mean there John.... The problem I have with lighter leads is firstly distance and also being able to feel for a drop, especially with foam nuggets being used most of the time aswell… Then again , I suppose a heavier lead can plough through chod and give the impression that you are fishing a clear spot.... Oh dear, now I really am confused....😁

10 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

Personally I use heavier leads if I feel the fish are riggy, mega pressured. 

Do you recon these fish are less likely to bolt...… I can always imagine a wary fish, having been pricked by a hook, just sitting there thinking " how do I get myself out of this one"..... Maybe spinning vertically to rid the hook. I remember Nick talking about some fish slowly backing up so the rig will withdraw without being flipped into a prone position..... I'll be giving the lead free leaders a go as boom sections this week, spliced double, they are just shy of semi stiff. I'm hoping the extra weight will help hold the hook point in place for a second or two longer. and provoke a bolt reaction.

[yonny]

11 hours ago, cyborx said:

if you are fishing over a choddy/silty bottom with an inline or drop off system with a 1 1/2oz lead and the lead plugs, suddenly that 1 1/2 oz equates to 3-4 oz, do the same with the current fad for 4 and up and the fish is tethered to well over HALF A POUND effectively

I think that's a good thing cyborx. Imo massive leads plugged deep absolutely nail them.

Half a pound is like 250g max. Nowhere near enough to tether them imo buddy.

[yonny]

3 hours ago, B.C. said:

I can always imagine a wary fish, having been pricked by a hook, just sitting there thinking " how do I get myself out of this one"..... Maybe spinning vertically to rid the hook.

There's a big common in a water that I fish..... it's last 3 captures came when the anglers woke up in the morning and noticed their lines pointing in a different direction to the previous evening, no indications received. Hit it and it was this common. Not been out in 3 years now, who knows how it does this. Food for thought innit. Has it been hooked in that time? Who knows.....

Edited May 24, 2018 by yonny

[salokcinnodrog]

3 hours ago, B.C. said:

I can see exactly what you mean there John.... The problem I have with lighter leads is firstly distance and also being able to feel for a drop, especially with foam nuggets being used most of the time aswell… Then again , I suppose a heavier lead can plough through chod and give the impression that you are fishing a clear spot.... Oh dear, now I really am confused....😁

Do you recon these fish are less likely to bolt...… I can always imagine a wary fish, having been pricked by a hook, just sitting there thinking " how do I get myself out of this one"..... Maybe spinning vertically to rid the hook. I remember Nick talking about some fish slowly backing up so the rig will withdraw without being flipped into a prone position..... I'll be giving the lead free leaders a go as boom sections this week, spliced double, they are just shy of semi stiff. I'm hoping the extra weight will help hold the hook point in place for a second or two longer. and provoke a bolt reaction.

 

16 minutes ago, yonny said:

There's a big common in a water that I fish..... it's last 3 captures came when the anglers woke up in the morning and noticed their lines pointing in a different direction to the previous evening, no indications received. Hit it and it was this common. Not been out in 3 years now, who knows how it does this. Food for thought innit. Has it been hooked in that time? Who knows.....

I first saw it on Taverham on a semi-fixed lead, Phil (Wamps) were fishing on the Cowtail. He had a take from the base of the island, his original Fox swinger did not move, his buzzer did not sound, we saw his line moving in an arc, so he struck into the fish, a good double.

I have lost fish on Nazeing, helicopter lead, 3oz. I had landed a 24, recast to the same spot, an hour later woke up to a couple of bleeps on my Delkim at + and 4 sensitive, a twitch on the indicator, exactly the same as a crayfish, looked, thought, didn't twig and went back to sleep. I woke up in the morning to discover that the fish had moved in an arc to some snags. 

 

I would think that current fashion for rig length is averaging between 5 and 9 inches? It is persuading the fish to move fast beyond that distance, so they can't sit sucking and blowing. It is weird how they can eject a hook, not necessarily spinning, but often you see the lips move, suck, blow, 'mans face shaving wriggles', suck, blow, hook comes flying out. It is not necessarily just the biggest fish that can do it either.

 

Then you have the stiff rig, or the stiff boomed rigs, on semi-fixed leads, that as soon as the fish backs off, pulls tight. (That is not every stiff boomed rig)

You need hookpoint in place in mouth to hook. If the carp picks up the hookbait, then backs off, hook has not entered mouth, rig pulls tight, indicator bleeps, carp moves and hookbait drops from mouth. No fish.

In my view, The length does not matter, except to deal with lakebed.

The big advantage of stiff rigs is their non tangling capabilities on casting. A big lead can work against you, it does not give rig movement, resistance is absolute.

A softer braid or even mono hooklink is not extended straight out, the carp has room to back off, play with the hookbait, suck, blow, eject, suck up, eject, suck in again, hook enters mouth, soft hooklink extends, carp backs off, but can't work out associated dangers, hookpoint pulls in, bolt and run.

In this case, the only size of lead you need, is large enough to reach the distance. 

 

Then you have lead set-up itself, running with tight line (boltrig) or slack line, pendant semi-fixed, helicopter or inline fixed or running, all make a difference to indication at the rod end, and to fish behaviour to rigs and hooking capabilities.

[yonny]

8 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

often you see the lips move, suck, blow, 'mans face shaving wriggles', suck, blow, hook comes flying out.

I think no matter how good our rigs are there is an element of luck to hooking fish. Imo we get done way more than we actually hook fish.

10 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

You need hookpoint in place in mouth to hook. If the carp picks up the hookbait, then backs off, hook has not entered mouth, rig pulls tight, indicator bleeps, carp moves and hookbait drops from mouth. No fish.

I do not believe a carp can pick up a hookbait without the hook. They don't use their lips to pick baits up. They suck the lot in. I have watched carp feed loads of times and never have I seen them using their lips to move or test baits.

All just my opinion of course.

[salokcinnodrog]

1 hour ago, yonny said:

I think no matter how good our rigs are there is an element of luck to hooking fish. Imo we get done way more than we actually hook fish.

I do not believe a carp can pick up a hookbait without the hook. They don't use their lips to pick baits up. They suck the lot in. I have watched carp feed loads of times and never have I seen them using their lips to move or test baits.

All just my opinion of course.

I have watched fish feeding on boilies, some definitely pick the bait up, then suck, to take it to the back of the mouth (to crush and swallow), compared to others who just suck and blow. In fact with (high) pop-ups, compared to say a pop-up at usual feeding height, close to the lakebed, I think more mouth the bait than suck. I think it was Rob Maylin who first identified the difference in print, Fox Pool, and his Beekay book Carp.

If you look, watch and listen to surface feeding carp, some manage to line up and mouth the bait in, compared to others who misalign themselves, and have to suck and slurp to get the mixer. I reckon feeding on the bottom is the same, or very similar.

 

It becomes confused with what you are feeding.

Say you feed just boilies, some carp I have watched on Brackens and Thwaite were most definitely mouthers. Add particles, groundbait or pellets into the mix, and feeding becomes suck and blow, or suck, suck, suck, blow out rubbish, take food (and hopefully hookbait ) to back of mouth.

 

As you say, we do get done, not always intentionally, just blowing out detritus, of which a hook is the same as a twig or stone, but sometimes there is a definite aversion to being hooked. Some rigs work on some waters, yet not on others. Change from say a straight shank hook to a curve shank, all other parameters and set up the same, suddenly more hook ups. It could be the pattern that has cured (part of) the problem.

At other times it could be a knotless knot set up fails, to hook, but go to a line aligner or kicker and suddenly fish get hooked.

 

 

Years ago I started a thread called 'Complicated Rigs', I think a lot of that is still valid today, it may be worth a read, although it did get a bit  convoluted at times.

 

[kevtaylor]

2 hours ago, yonny said:

There's a big common in a water that I fish..... it's last 3 captures came when the anglers woke up in the morning and noticed their lines pointing in a different direction to the previous evening, no indications received. Hit it and it was this common. Not been out in 3 years now, who knows how it does this. Food for thought innit. Has it been hooked in that time? Who knows.....

The big Sandmartin fish has never been out, crazy with the pressure it receives.