On the wind and off the wind

[Danny Hearn]

Is it as simple as this? Today the air temperature was 15’c a lot warmer than the water. Temperatures have been rising gradually last week or so. So the wind will be warming the lake. Is this when to start fishing on the wind? It’s a big pit windswept so it’s turning over Nicely. 
 

I know there are no rules but in general wouldn’t it be time to start looking on the wind ? 
 

 

[kevtaylor]

Winter I tend to start at the back of the wind, but you can never write off the teeth of a cold wind even in the coldest periods, but yes it's definitely time that the fish are active and getting everywhere.  As soon as the daylight hours are going the right way it's time IMO.

[Danny Hearn]

19 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Winter I tend to start at the back of the wind, but you can never write off the teeth of a cold wind even in the coldest periods, but yes it's definitely time that the fish are active and getting everywhere.  As soon as the daylight hours are going the right way it's time IMO.

Thanks for your reply 

I’m struggling to grasp why a carp would ever want to be in the colder water unless it’s blazing hot summer where I have seen them group up under shade that they can find.
 

There are so many variables it will be impossible for us to go through them all but I would love to learn what I can so if I can have a minute of your time I would appreciate that because I’m trying to get this chapter in my learning done and dusted.

when you say you can’t rule out the carp being on the end of a bitter wind can you think of any reasons why they might do so? 
 

I want to start learning about thermoclines I think it’s called. Would this be something to do with what you mean? I’m no way trying to dispute what your saying about them choosing to be down the windward end of a lake when the wind is freezing cold but there must be a reason why this would be the case.

possible reasons I can think of 

1. Angling pressure has pushed them down there?

2. Natural food is down there and not in the protected areas off the wind?

3. The sun is hitting that area and not hitting the protected areas off the wind ?  

4. The first cold winds that hit are still pushing the warm water deeper down up that way?

if you don’t know I don’t blame you I have heard celebrity anglers say they have found carp on the end of a freezing wind and it’s thrown the rule book out of the window. Maybe I will never find the answers but to be honest I would rather listen to the opinions of regular everyday anglers than celebrity anglers as alot of the time I think celebrity anglers have hidden agendas.

Ps. Im probably doing my own head in and everyone else’s too getting obsessed like this but I will never change I just had the best year in my angling and I’m going to carry on trying to get better and better. I don’t ask people on the lakes I fish anything only person I quiz up is my bait guy and I’m loyal to him so he owes me 🤣I prefer to do my own thing and try find the science behind it all. 
 

I would not be offended if you don’t reply it’s a lot asking someone you don’t know to take time out to read my ridiculously long essay reply’s 🤣

 

[salokcinnodrog]

7 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

Thanks for your reply 

I’m struggling to grasp why a carp would ever want to be in the colder water unless it’s blazing hot summer where I have seen them group up under shade that they can find.
 

There are so many variables it will be impossible for us to go through them all but I would love to learn what I can so if I can have a minute of your time I would appreciate that because I’m trying to get this chapter in my learning done and dusted.

when you say you can’t rule out the carp being on the end of a bitter wind can you think of any reasons why they might do so? 
 

I want to start learning about thermoclines I think it’s called. Would this be something to do with what you mean? I’m no way trying to dispute what your saying about them choosing to be down the windward end of a lake when the wind is freezing cold but there must be a reason why this would be the case.

possible reasons I can think of 

1. Angling pressure has pushed them down there?

2. Natural food is down there and not in the protected areas off the wind?

3. The sun is hitting that area and not hitting the protected areas off the wind ?  

4. The first cold winds that hit are still pushing the warm water deeper down up that way?

if you don’t know I don’t blame you I have heard celebrity anglers say they have found carp on the end of a freezing wind and it’s thrown the rule book out of the window. Maybe I will never find the answers but to be honest I would rather listen to the opinions of regular everyday anglers than celebrity anglers as alot of the time I think celebrity anglers have hidden agendas.

Ps. Im probably doing my own head in and everyone else’s too getting obsessed like this but I will never change I just had the best year in my angling and I’m going to carry on trying to get better and better. I don’t ask people on the lakes I fish anything only person I quiz up is my bait guy and I’m loyal to him so he owes me 🤣I prefer to do my own thing and try find the science behind it all. 
 

I would not be offended if you don’t reply it’s a lot asking someone you don’t know to take time out to read my ridiculously long essay reply’s 🤣

 

@Danny Hearn I hope you don't mind an essay in return.

Very few waters have proper thermoclines, they aren't deep enough. You are normally looking at a depth of around 10metres, or 33feet.

The water below a thermocline is of a significantly colder temperature than above. In carp waters, we might get a localised patch of warmer water, the margins or around reeds but not a true thermocline. The water at the base of a lake is always in winter, going to be around 4⁰ Celsius, as water is densest at that temperature. Warmer or colder water will not sink to the bottom, but 'swirls' above it.

It won't be until spring that it warms up, and even in deeper water, in the Lochs and Lakes it may stay that all year!

Wind is weird, especially now in February. In winter it is rare for the fish to be following the wind at all, unless it is a really heavy warm south Westerly.

You are also in the period when carp are hanging around their winter areas, the rushes, snags, gravel, old weed beds or food beds of bloodworm etc. Year after year they may use the same area, staying around the spot from late October/November until February/March. Even for loads of angling pressure they may only move a few metres.

This is NOT always the deepest water in the lake, its weird seeing carp a rod length  away from the bank in 4ft of water at the base of the rushes, when there is 6feet depth water a little further out.

It is only some waters where carp will move up into sun warmed water if the day is bright, that area has to be close to the winter area. If it is half a mile away up the other end of the lake, then it is unlikely they will move. They may however, rise into the warmer water.

Back to the wind, the carp following it is unusual, and I think to some extent that there is some celebrity bravado "I fished into the teeth of a cold North Westerly and caught carp in freezing conditions".

Yep, I believe you, but you know that in the lake where the carp hole up over winter is a shorter 50yard cast rather than with the wind behind you where you will have to cast 200yards +.

A bit of mickey taking, but you get my drift.

I have fished in winter, where the bank facing the wind was the only one I could get a bivvy flat and comfortable without a serious slope down to the rods. Cold, very, uncomfortable at times, but yes I did catch 10 carp over 4days. 

Yet there may be times when the rule book goes out the window.

 

 

[framey]

Fish can’t read the rules 

but always be certain of one thing 

expect the unexpected

i will never just say I’m fishing swim 4 because the wind is pushing into swim 4.

But, I might have a closer look there when I’m walking around though lol.

Edited February 16, 2023 by framey

[framey]

6 minutes ago, framey said:

Fish can’t read the rules 

but always be certain of one thing 

expect the unexpected

i will never just say I’m fishing swim 4 because the wind is pushing into swim 4.

But, I might have a closer look there when I’m walking around though lol.

*to add *

I was walking around the public lake I walk everyday and saw a couple right in the edge about a foot from the bank tails up in the silt.

even stopped and watched them for a minute or 2 I could have probably bent down and picked them up.

I didn’t take any notice of the wind. They were where they wanted to be 

[kevtaylor]

On 16/02/2023 at 00:16, Danny Hearn said:

when you say you can’t rule out the carp being on the end of a bitter wind can you think of any reasons why they might do so? 
 

I want to start learning about thermoclines I think it’s called. Would this be something to do with what you mean? I’m no way trying to dispute what your saying about them choosing to be down the windward end of a lake when the wind is freezing cold but there must be a reason why this would be the case.

possible reasons I can think of 

1. Angling pressure has pushed them down there?

2. Natural food is down there and not in the protected areas off the wind?

3. The sun is hitting that area and not hitting the protected areas off the wind ?  

4. The first cold winds that hit are still pushing the warm water deeper down up that way?

 

I'm no expert but in my mind you've already got the reasons right there.  Natural food could be being carried to the windward bank, but it's also migrating to the shallows now and maybe that's all that matters to the bugs - head for the shallows not necessarily the back of the cold wind and shallow, so effectively from what I've seen you have snails and other naturals coming right up into the edges and that's possibly where the first new algae grows for them to eat.

Sun - again its warming up all of the water, we cannot claim to understand where the warmer water is ending up, or whether they always need or want to be there, the draw of food could be much stronger than comfort.

Cold winds -again what feels cold to us is not necessarily the same for them, it could be freezing to us but a tiny bit warmer than previous days to them so they go off on the hunt for whatever.

Just because it is said they are dormant in winter I have also had many many liners on a freezing Jan night when they moved from one end to the other with a wind change.  I got the liners as they left then 2 guys got them when they arrived 300 yards further away.

I'm going for my first night tomorrow, will be interesting, I imagine I will walk the back of the wind first but will be doing laps looking for any early spots showing up.  The work begins - cant wait 

[...]

22 hours ago, framey said:

*to add *

I was walking around the public lake I walk everyday and saw a couple right in the edge about a foot from the bank tails up in the silt.

even stopped and watched them for a minute or 2 I could have probably bent down and picked them up.

I didn’t take any notice of the wind. They were where they wanted to be 

That happened January 2022 for me on park lake, could have easily got a net n scooped em.

[framey]

Went for a walk again there today 

even took note of wind direction 

Blue represents fish feeding lol

14 degrees overcast

Edited February 17, 2023 by framey

[Danny Hearn]

1 hour ago, kevtaylor said:

I'm no expert but in my mind you've already got the reasons right there.  Natural food could be being carried to the windward bank, but it's also migrating to the shallows now and maybe that's all that matters to the bugs - head for the shallows not necessarily the back of the cold wind and shallow, so effectively from what I've seen you have snails and other naturals coming right up into the edges and that's possibly where the first new algae grows for them to eat.

Sun - again its warming up all of the water, we cannot claim to understand where the warmer water is ending up, or whether they always need or want to be there, the draw of food could be much stronger than comfort.

Cold winds -again what feels cold to us is not necessarily the same for them, it could be freezing to us but a tiny bit warmer than previous days to them so they go off on the hunt for whatever.

Just because it is said they are dormant in winter I have also had many many liners on a freezing Jan night when they moved from one end to the other with a wind change.  I got the liners as they left then 2 guys got them when they arrived 300 yards further away.

I'm going for my first night tomorrow, will be interesting, I imagine I will walk the back of the wind first but will be doing laps looking for any early spots showing up.  The work begins - cant wait 

Good luck for your trip thanks for your reply 

[Danny Hearn]

On 16/02/2023 at 08:06, salokcinnodrog said:

@Danny Hearn I hope you don't mind an essay in return.

Very few waters have proper thermoclines, they aren't deep enough. You are normally looking at a depth of around 10metres, or 33feet.

The water below a thermocline is of a significantly colder temperature than above. In carp waters, we might get a localised patch of warmer water, the margins or around reeds but not a true thermocline. The water at the base of a lake is always in winter, going to be around 4⁰ Celsius, as water is densest at that temperature. Warmer or colder water will not sink to the bottom, but 'swirls' above it.

It won't be until spring that it warms up, and even in deeper water, in the Lochs and Lakes it may stay that all year!

Wind is weird, especially now in February. In winter it is rare for the fish to be following the wind at all, unless it is a really heavy warm south Westerly.

You are also in the period when carp are hanging around their winter areas, the rushes, snags, gravel, old weed beds or food beds of bloodworm etc. Year after year they may use the same area, staying around the spot from late October/November until February/March. Even for loads of angling pressure they may only move a few metres.

This is NOT always the deepest water in the lake, its weird seeing carp a rod length  away from the bank in 4ft of water at the base of the rushes, when there is 6feet depth water a little further out.

It is only some waters where carp will move up into sun warmed water if the day is bright, that area has to be close to the winter area. If it is half a mile away up the other end of the lake, then it is unlikely they will move. They may however, rise into the warmer water.

Back to the wind, the carp following it is unusual, and I think to some extent that there is some celebrity bravado "I fished into the teeth of a cold North Westerly and caught carp in freezing conditions".

Yep, I believe you, but you know that in the lake where the carp hole up over winter is a shorter 50yard cast rather than with the wind behind you where you will have to cast 200yards +.

A bit of mickey taking, but you get my drift.

I have fished in winter, where the bank facing the wind was the only one I could get a bivvy flat and comfortable without a serious slope down to the rods. Cold, very, uncomfortable at times, but yes I did catch 10 carp over 4days. 

Yet there may be times when the rule book goes out the window.

 

 

Thanks for that reply. I learned from It.
so I was on the bank Wednesday spent about 5 hours searching all the protected shallow bays that were being hit with the sun, climbing trees and couldn’t find a thing. Another angler turned up and got his drone up and just confirmed that all these areas were void of carp. The only place they could have been was on the wind and it was really choppy so the drone was useless but after ruling all other areas out they must have been down there or down in the depths which I can’t imagine they were. I’m curious as to whether it was because of the warm wind as you said it’s unusual for them to follow wind as we’re in winter but maybe this was one of them unusual times.

[Danny Hearn]

I’m on the lake now been searching for 5 hours. Don’t know what to do this wind has been pumping down to one end of the lake for about a week now. 
gonna keep watching and maybe wait into dark to hear some boshing before even get any kit out. 
last resort I’m going to set up down the windward end and just camp it out 

[salokcinnodrog]

2 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

I’m on the lake now been searching for 5 hours. Don’t know what to do this wind has been pumping down to one end of the lake for about a week now. 
gonna keep watching and maybe wait into dark to hear some boshing before even get any kit out. 
last resort I’m going to set up down the windward end and just camp it out 

Funny thing on my lake, which is roughly east to west, the fish have all been holed up in the western end. The Eastern end is too shallow,  they start hradually working their way up there from March 

[Danny Hearn]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Funny thing on my lake, which is roughly east to west, the fish have all been holed up in the western end. The Eastern end is too shallow,  they start hradually working their way up there from March 

I am shaking right now, so I sat it out without casting waiting listening and just where I had suspected/hoped they would be and they are here, right on the end of these recent warm winds and far as possible away from the recent angling pressure. 
Im shaking because I’m not actually fishing my all year syndicate I’m on my winter ticket at Holme fen fishery in Cambridge and an absolute cow has just smashed out right in front of my swim.😀Now to make a plan. 

[Danny Hearn]

Just now, Danny Hearn said:

I am shaking right now, so I sat it out without casting waiting listening and just where I had suspected/hoped they would be and they are here, right on the end of these recent warm winds and far as possible away from the recent angling pressure. 
Im shaking because I’m not actually fishing my all year syndicate I’m on my winter ticket at Holme fen fishery in Cambridge and an absolute cow has just smashed out right in front of my swim.😀Now to make a plan. 

I need to improve my zig game it’s quite deep out in front of me 

[framey]

25 minutes ago, Danny Hearn said:

I need to improve my zig game it’s quite deep out in front of me 

Good luck however you fish it

[Danny Hearn]

Sadly nothing happened for me last night but at least I followed through with my plan that I have been saying for months that I’m going to do and just kept putting it off.

incase any of you haven’t been reading previous in this thread (I think it’s called thread correct me if I’m wrong) but I have been planning to leave all kit in the van until I have something to go on rather than just casting out where’s free with zero confidence. 
 

I will be doing this from now on it was such a buzz sitting there in the dark contemplating whether I’m wasting my time or not listening out for fish with no rods out and then bosh/splash/kadoosh whatever you like to call it. 
 

This time the shows were over deep water 15-16 foot I checked today. I should have had zigs all tied up ready before I even left home as I planned to or even should have tied some up on the bank and been more dedicated but tbh I was overwhelmed just to confirm a carp at all after many trips searching for hours on end for no reward.

I had a zig out today but I’m pretty sure the fish moved out at first light because I had a flurry of liners for about an hour then nothing for the rest of the day so I was too late with getting ziggy.

I said before I have no social media (I probably say this too much 🤣) I’m not one of them guys who walks into other peoples swims and disturbs there peace asking all questions and stuff so joining this chat room and having all you guys respond and give your opinions and knowledge has been amazing for me and I feel proper lucky to be on here.

thank you everyone honestly I’m blown away with how great everyone has been 

 

[Danny Hearn]

Just now, Danny Hearn said:

Sadly nothing happened for me last night but at least I followed through with my plan that I have been saying for months that I’m going to do and just kept putting it off.

incase any of you haven’t been reading previous in this thread (I think it’s called thread correct me if I’m wrong) but I have been planning to leave all kit in the van until I have something to go on rather than just casting out where’s free with zero confidence. 
 

I will be doing this from now on it was such a buzz sitting there in the dark contemplating whether I’m wasting my time or not listening out for fish with no rods out and then bosh/splash/kadoosh whatever you like to call it. 
 

This time the shows were over deep water 15-16 foot I checked today. I should have had zigs all tied up ready before I even left home as I planned to or even should have tied some up on the bank and been more dedicated but tbh I was overwhelmed just to confirm a carp at all after many trips searching for hours on end for no reward.

I had a zig out today but I’m pretty sure the fish moved out at first light because I had a flurry of liners for about an hour then nothing for the rest of the day so I was too late with getting ziggy.

I said before I have no social media (I probably say this too much 🤣) I’m not one of them guys who walks into other peoples swims and disturbs there peace asking all questions and stuff so joining this chat room and having all you guys respond and give your opinions and knowledge has been amazing for me and I feel proper lucky to be on here.

thank you everyone honestly I’m blown away with how great everyone has been 

 

Don’t worry guys I won’t be starting threads every time I hit the bank. Have just been interested with the wind recently and I learnt that ok the carp did follow a new warm wind after keeping off the back most of the winter although I doubt they dropped down into the depths they was there so I learned something, well I learned something about the carp in this particular lake at least 

[framey]

5 minutes ago, Danny Hearn said:

Don’t worry guys I won’t be starting threads every time I hit the bank. Have just been interested with the wind recently and I learnt that ok the carp did follow a new warm wind after keeping off the back most of the winter although I doubt they dropped down into the depths they was there so I learned something, well I learned something about the carp in this particular lake at least 

And those are the only fish that should matter at the time 

what’s happening on linear, linch hill or even redmire make no difference to where you are fishing 

[salokcinnodrog]

28 minutes ago, Danny Hearn said:

Don’t worry guys I won’t be starting threads every time I hit the bank. Have just been interested with the wind recently and I learnt that ok the carp did follow a new warm wind after keeping off the back most of the winter although I doubt they dropped down into the depths they was there so I learned something, well I learned something about the carp in this particular lake at least 

 

21 minutes ago, framey said:

And those are the only fish that should matter at the time 

what’s happening on linear, linch hill or even redmire make no difference to where you are fishing 

As Framey says, they are the ones that matter.

 

We can give you advice from our experience, but every water is likely to be different, angler pressure, lake shape, size etc, so our advice is right, but wrong, 

 

If they are crashing, they are showing, and glad you learnt something. 

[Danny Hearn]

9 hours ago, framey said:

And those are the only fish that should matter at the time 

what’s happening on linear, linch hill or even redmire make no difference to where you are fishing 

9 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

As Framey says, they are the ones that matter.

 

We can give you advice from our experience, but every water is likely to be different, angler pressure, lake shape, size etc, so our advice is right, but wrong, 

 

If they are crashing, they are showing, and glad you learnt something. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

 

 

 

Yes I understand different lakes and there residents may act different but is there not like an on average sort of way of looking at things? 
 

eg. Don’t all fish feed on the bottom more comfortably in low pressure ?
and to go with that would it be right to say that low pressure is more important in deep lakes? Shallow lakes it’s not that much of a major factor? Is that right? 
 

if you don’t mind answering I would like to ask some questions for your opinions I will try my best to keep it short and sweet as possible 

 

9 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

As Framey says, they are the ones that matter.

 

We can give you advice from our experience, but every water is likely to be different, angler pressure, lake shape, size etc, so our advice is right, but wrong, 

 

If they are crashing, they are showing, and glad you learnt something. 

I have been typing into the search bar to try find old threads rather than pestering everyone asking questions but I can’t seem to get it to work 

[salokcinnodrog]

8 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

I have been typing into the search bar to try find old threads rather than pestering everyone asking questions but I can’t seem to get it to work 

 

 

The search engine can be a right pig, you have to be specific, and even then...

For example 'follow the wind' as your search term, will bring up 7 answers on this thread and 4,400 other possible answers from Catch Reports, to Non Carp Banter.

I'm possibly lucky, (or not) that I can remember specific threads so can go back to it using the actual thread name. 

The other way is just to go back through the pages and pages of threads.

 

8 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

 

Yes I understand different lakes and there residents may act different but is there not like an on average sort of way of looking at things? 
 

eg. Don’t all fish feed on the bottom more comfortably in low pressure ?
and to go with that would it be right to say that low pressure is more important in deep lakes? Shallow lakes it’s not that much of a major factor? Is that right? 
 

if you don’t mind answering I would like to ask some questions for your opinions I will try my best to keep it short and sweet as possible 

I wish it were that simple.

Carp are Carp, they respond in a similar manner, so in theory yes you have an average behaviour.

Then there is a BUT, the follow the wind happens in so many different ways. In some waters fish follow a North wind in summer,  in some it's a southerly, or the south westerly. 

You may have features that slow or stop the wind or water, gravel bars, islands, maybe snags are the natural fish holding spots.

It is not a new book, but the best explanation on the wind and pressure I have ever seen is in Big Water Carp by Jim Gibbinson if you can find a copy.

(Look on abebooks, you can pick up a bargain or two).

My best advice is to get onto the wind, and try it

I'm not sure on pressure and how it affects carp, whether they come up or down the water column, feed more or less. The lakebed is where the majority of food is, every fish needs to survive, so they eat. Fish can feed in groups, or individually. We probably notice group feeding more than individuals, so a single fish cleaning out a patch is possibly just a few bubbles, compared to a massive oily patch of coloured water as groups of fish feed.

It is where that food is, in the margins, or in the middle of the lake. Is there a gravel bar or plateau that holds food, either natural or anglers bait?

Is the middle of the lake too deep to hold much food?

Or is it shallow enough to be a bloodworm fest?

[Danny Hearn]

So I started this thread while on my winter ticket to try learn about when to be on the wind and when to be off of it. Just got back from my last session on the lake with a smile on my face as I managed 3 fish. It’s clear to say at this time of year on this lake with weather conditions as they were the fish were definitely on the wind and it was proper windy. I didn’t enjoy sitting in my bivvy on the end of the wind scared that it was gonna take off at any point! I honestly had about an hours sleep each night and had to down 2 red bulls just to stay sane on the drive home as I was spaced out hallucinating cars coming at me when they were actually miles away from me 🥴I pictured being dragged into the lake stuck inside my inner capsule even though the wind was hammering the other way so it was unlikely but it seemed to be blowing all directions and at the time I am not afraid to say I was scared ########. 

considering the average size of the fish in the lake I was unfortunate to catch a few of the smaller ones but I’m not complaining next year I might hook into one of the monsters that reside in there. Here’s a couple pics 

 

27lb 

19lb

And the highlight of the session and the fish that warranted me buying the ticket. We’re in spring now so can’t really say they are winter carp but I had been baiting this area with whatever bait I had left over from my sessions and now I’m kicking myself for not dropping on it sooner.

32 lb 

Before this session I was honestly considering taking up a different hobby!  I thought I had lost the love for it. Had a brilliant time and am looking forward to the rest of the years adventures.

Thanks for the help from anyone who was on this thread. Cheers 

Danny Hearn 

[newmarket]

17 hours ago, Danny Hearn said:

 I was unfortunate to catch a few of the smaller ones 

 

27lb 

19lb

 

32 lb 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[ouchthathurt]

If they’re the smaller ones mate, I want a ticket! Well done fella, cracking result!