Ban it, the leadcore leader or the lead clip?

[salokcinnodrog]

I don't know how many times I have ranted over leaders and leadcore, it is seriously too many to count.

What gets me is the advice of 'with all the advice available' to set up leadcore and leaders safely, yet no mention is made of removing the stuff from sale.

It is not just newcomers to fishing that don't know how to use the stuff, or even where to use it.

 

Look at these 2 pictures, you can't tell me that they were set up by new anglers, not with where I retrieved them from.

 

Both were retrieved from a weedy lake, snagged up, thankfully with nothing attached, except me where one hook went into my chest waders, and came in after effort, with a bed of weed the size of a small car, original (real Mini).

How the hell is a fish going to get away from that lot?

Do we really need to continue to be using leadcore, or other leaders?

[Carpbell3]

No not really all my best fish came fishing straight through I do get a bit leader happy when things are getting grim and a change up frenzy kicks in.

That's the same for most things though

If you would like to expand the topic on bans in general there could be a problem with Otter fencing as it goes against DEFRAs policy on a number of different points, the containment and impediment of movent of wild and feral animals.

Same for blue lake dye totally off the scale on a natural water able to host all wildlife safely.

Could be some big changes comming soon for carp angling whether anglers like it or not carp are that wide spread they are invasive to natural wildlife, just like mink are. In brighter news looks like the hunting with dogs act is about to go the way of the doddo.

[framey]

Top picture looks like tubing ?

 

[Carpbell3]

1 hour ago, Carpbell3 said:

No not really all my best fish came fishing straight through I do get a bit leader happy when things are getting grim and a change up frenzy kicks in.

That's the same for most things though

If you would like to expand the topic on bans in general there could be a problem with Otter fencing as it goes against DEFRAs policy on a number of different points, the containment and impediment of movent of wild and feral animals.

Same for blue lake dye totally off the scale on a natural water able to host all wildlife safely.

Could be some big changes comming soon for carp angling whether anglers like it or not carp are that wide spread they are invasive to natural wildlife, just like mink are. In brighter news looks like the hunting with dogs act is about to go the way of the doddo.

Better expand, the hunting act is not enforceable other than by volunteers which have caused more problems than when it was a protest. Be one of those laws that fades.

[elmoputney]

If they are both trailing that much line how is it the leaders fault? The first one does look like tubing to me also? 

 

[framey]

To be fair ,

even if both were your advocated running rigs nothing is coming off with that much line on them 

sorry Nick but my opinion is  that isn’t leadcore fault

As both rigs have lead clips maybe should go for those as well.

I do agree that not used carefully it can be a real hazard but to blanket ban the use is harsh 

personally there is no need for anyone to tie rigs wrong with the plethora of videos there are around now a days.

I happily use lead core but the lengths I use are usually around 1 foot- 18” maximum and that is only if there is weed so I have a bit of protection. mine is usually tied using the Keith moors knot so it’s actually a Knotless knot for leadcore or I will needle knot it.

Edited November 19, 2022 by framey

[elmoputney]

4 minutes ago, framey said:

To be fair ,

even if both were your advocated running rigs nothing is coming off with that much line on them 

sorry Nick but my opinion is  that isn’t leadcore fault

As both rigs have lead clips maybe should go for those as well.

I do agree that not used carefully it can be a real hazard but to blanket ban the use is harsh 

personally there is no need for anyone to tie rigs wrong with the plethora of videos there are around now a days.

I happily use lead core but the lengths I use are usually around 1 foot- 18” maximum and that is only if there is weed so I have a bit of protection. mine is usually tied using the Keith moors knot so it’s actually a Knotless knot for leadcore or I will needle knot it.

Lead clip tail rubbers pushed on too far can be a big problem, those leads are never going to detach from the clip 

[framey]

8 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Lead clip tail rubbers pushed on too far can be a big problem, those leads are never going to detach from the clip 

The bottom pic look like one of those Korda drop lead things 

[elmoputney]

51 minutes ago, framey said:

The bottom pic look like one of those Korda drop lead things 

Helisafe? I bought a couple seem quite complicated and faffy, never got round to using them, people do seem to like them though I think 

[Golden Paws]

Lead Core is banned on my local waters and so I've never used, even when fishing other waters. I use the Korda Safezone leaders, the lead clip version for using normal leads or the swivel end version if using in-lines in a PVA bag. The stuff is pretty invisible, thick and tough and shouldn't lift any scales off the carp. I did start off using tubing when I first started but it just seemed too obvious to me.

If the line snaps above the leader, there is potential for problems whatever you use. Even if you have 20 foot of normal mono, the problem would still be there.

[salokcinnodrog]

11 hours ago, framey said:

sorry Nick but my opinion is  that isn’t leadcore fault

As both rigs have lead clips maybe should go for those as well.

I do agree that not used carefully it can be a real hazard but to blanket ban the use is harsh 

personally there is no need for anyone to tie rigs wrong with the plethora of videos there are around now a days.

I happily use lead core but the lengths I use are usually around 1 foot- 18” maximum and that is only if there is weed so I have a bit of protection. mine is usually tied using the Keith moors knot so it’s actually a Knotless knot for leadcore or I will needle knot it.

 

10 hours ago, elmoputney said:

Helisafe? I bought a couple seem quite complicated and faffy, never got round to using them, people do seem to like them though I think 

I'd quite happily ban lead clips as well.

'The tail rubber is pushed on too far', bowlicks! Lead clips WERE NOT designed to eject leads when fishing, they were designed so you were not carrying a rod in transit with a lead attached. They were designed to solve that problem, which had already been solved years previously by using a link clip on a John Roberts or Drennan bead. 

No matter how far you push a tail rubber on, unless the lead catches the weed or snag it is not going to come off.

@elmoputney the first pic, is a Hybrid lead clip to leadcore with tubing over it. The second is that Korda heli-safe direct to leadcore.

 

@framey rigs like that are still being tied, no-one in our syndicate is inexperienced, lacking knowledge or skills. You have to be recommended, sponsored and referenced to get a place. In other words it is not a water just anyone can fish.

 

The other thing is, you do know Keith Moors now advocates going leader free, and banned them on his lake in France, after he retrieved a fish snagged up with leadcore towing a ball of weed that had its jaw broken.

I can splice leadcore, and other braids, I can needle knot, no matter what happens in most cases, the fish is towing the leadcore. It only takes 6inches to catch up and snag.

 

11 hours ago, framey said:

To be fair ,

even if both were your advocated running rigs nothing is coming off with that much line on them 

I actually had a pike strike my line a couple of weeks ago, just below the rod tip, so lost the lot; 20 metres of line,  running lead, rig etc in the weed. I was able to get my marker rod and with a lot of luck retrieve the rig and line. That is all I retrieved, no lead, no run ring, so I am convinced that a running lead will come off the end of a broken line.

Yet quite definitely, with what could well be a pike strike in these instances,  from the amount of line attached, both leads on the various heli-safe and lead clip are still attached. The top rig was fairly recent, that hook was very sharp.

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

I'd quite happily ban lead clips as well.

'The tail rubber is pushed on too far', bowlicks! Lead clips WERE NOT designed to eject leads when fishing, they were designed so you were not carrying a rod in transit with a lead attached. They were designed to solve that problem, which had already been solved years previously by using a link clip on a John Roberts or Drennan bead. 

No matter how far you push a tail rubber on, unless the lead catches the weed or snag it is not going to come off.

@elmoputney the first pic, is a Hybrid lead clip to leadcore with tubing over it. The second is that Korda heli-safe direct to leadcore.

 

@framey rigs like that are still being tied, no-one in our syndicate is inexperienced, lacking knowledge or skills. You have to be recommended, sponsored and referenced to get a place. In other words it is not a water just anyone can fish.

 

The other thing is, you do know Keith Moors now advocates going leader free, and banned them on his lake in France, after he retrieved a fish snagged up with leadcore towing a ball of weed that had its jaw broken.

I can splice leadcore, and other braids, I can needle knot, no matter what happens in most cases, the fish is towing the leadcore. It only takes 6inches to catch up and snag.

 

I actually had a pike strike my line a couple of weeks ago, just below the rod tip, so lost the lot; 20 metres of line,  running lead, rig etc in the weed. I was able to get my marker rod and with a lot of luck retrieve the rig and line. That is all I retrieved, no lead, no run ring, so I am convinced that a running lead will come off the end of a broken line.

Yet quite definitely, with what could well be a pike strike in these instances,  from the amount of line attached, both leads on the various heli-safe and lead clip are still attached. The top rig was fairly recent, that hook was very sharp.

Its hard enough getting line through tubing let alone trying to get Leadcore through it, really not sure what the point is unless Leadcore is banned and he is trying to pull a stroke, I thought helisafes are designed to sit at the end of the leader? 

I think lead clips do lose the lead if the tail rubber isnt pushed on too tight, I always use saliva to lubricate it before I push the rail rubber on, it's true they don't always eject but normally they will if used correctly, 

[salokcinnodrog]

14 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Its hard enough getting line through tubing let alone trying to get Leadcore through it, really not sure what the point is unless Leadcore is banned and he is trying to pull a stroke, I thought helisafes are designed to sit at the end of the leader? 

I think lead clips do lose the lead if the tail rubber isnt pushed on too tight, I always use saliva to lubricate it before I push the rail rubber on, it's true they don't always eject but normally they will if used correctly, 

Leadcore is not banned, the only bans on the syndicate are plastic or fake baits.

To be honest lead clips only lose the lead on a pull away from the rod tip, not towards, and that is only if a) the lead catches, b) the tail rubber is not stuck or jammed, which weed can do for you.

 

The heli-safe is on the setup with the 2.5oz Fox lead, the other is the lead clip and a 3.5 or 4oz lead, which according to theory, should be able to come off a lead clip, but obviously hasn't.

[emmcee]

Makes me laugh when people want to ban this that and the other because it "might"  cause fish damage or death and yet they are more than happy to put a hook into a fish (causing damage) , drag it from its watery home causing untold stress and who knows possibly death and then  put  it back. 

The thing with those rigs are they have been put together by the uneducated.  A tail rubber jammed on will not drop the lead and yet I've never seen on a korda dvd (other tackle manufacturers are available) one of the blokes jamming on a tail rubber so you can't blame the manufacturer.  

 

[framey]

On 20/11/2022 at 08:22, salokcinnodrog said:

 

 

The other thing is, you do know Keith Moors now advocates going leader free, and banned them on his lake in France, after he retrieved a fish snagged up with leadcore towing a ball of weed 

 

 

I know that IF I crack off (can’t actually remember when I last did)

everything is coming off especially with such a short amount of it 

jamming the lead clip tail rubber on I do that when I am storing the rods so when I put a lead on and hook the rubber back on it actually works as it should because the tail rubber bore is larger than it actually should be.

I suppose after 45 years as an angler I know how to fish safe as I don’t get bogged down by the videos etc.

 

 

[salokcinnodrog]

21 hours ago, emmcee said:

The thing with those rigs are they have been put together by the uneducated.  A tail rubber jammed on will not drop the lead and yet I've never seen on a korda dvd (other tackle manufacturers are available) one of the blokes jamming on a tail rubber so you can't blame the manufacturer.  

That's just it, they haven't all been put together by the uneducated, some maybe, but some magazine articles do give unsafe set-ups, which people will copy. They have been educated, learnt from the article.

 

Now to me a lead clip is physics, for every action there is an opposite reaction.

Look at the or any  lead clip; the lead can only come free on a pull away from the rod tip, hopefully a take.

The tail rubber can only slide back and off on a pull away from the angler. If there is something stopping the tail rubber from coming off, a length of tubing, a bit of detritus, it will not release the lead.

 

Now you start to reel in, the lead is sliding down the lead clip, where it will lodge against the curve and won't come off. The tail rubber, in any weed, or against a snag, is also being pushed further onto the lead clip. So what may be a loosely pushed on tail rubber is now a tightly pushed on tail rubber, and won't release the lead. 

[greekskii]

what about the other side of the argument? using thicker leaders ( I use fluoro or leadless leaders) when fishing places with snags to prevent cut offs is surely better than bare line which is much more likely to cut off and leave a fish with a rig in it's mouth? 

End of the day it's user error, some people just dont care and will pull for a break straight away instead of exhausting all options before pulling for a break. Personally I do everything I can to retrieve a snagged up fish/rig and hate to pull for a break. I have been out on a little dinghy in the dark to try and retrieve snagged up rigs, face pretty much in the water to reach down far enough. The amount of trees ive climbed to get other peoples lost rigs and leads because they cant be asked. Most wont even ring a bailiff and tell them the situation. 

You cant educate the idiots sadly. Just have to avoid fishing places that they do! 

[Carpbell3]

1 minute ago, framey said:

Who’s Chris berry 

A fool that talks to people like they are dog do and when you take the rip back he stomps his foot removes your ticket then talks stinky winky behind your back, I have a ex like that the person is one seriouse bigot that needs banning from holding anysort of membership list. Short of his circle group buddies.

Anyhow, enough for today on stumpy back to leadcore, nasty stuff in the wrong hands, it comes from pre packed sales of 1 meter stripes, it set the going amount to use only because it wouldn't sell in 5 to 10 ince lengths, there I stayed on topic and sorted the problem, it's all about retail.

[Carpbell3]

Soz, did try to turn her round seems stumpy had a few posts in him after all.

My leadcore comment was on point I thought everyone buys the 1 meter lengths in a pack I doubt they would uy shorter bits. You don't see many full rolls of leadcore sold I still have spool of krypton I bought over 10 years back.

[kevtaylor]

On the banning of leaders and lead clips, again nothing wrong with the products just the inexperienced users of said items.  You don't ban cars because of a few terrible drivers, this is the same IMO.

My lead always comes off on the take when I want it too, 4-5oz flat pear lead, korda hybrid clips, tail rubber on lightly, its off on the take, which I want on a weedy/snaggy lake.  If I want to keep the lead I go for a heli set-up.

Even a running setup will tangle and hold onto the lead if there's 20+ yards of coiled line attached still.  Pike are a pain for doing this - biting you off at the rod tips, happens on point swims regular.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by kevtaylor

[salokcinnodrog]

On 22/11/2022 at 11:15, kevtaylor said:

On the banning of leaders and lead clips, again nothing wrong with the products just the inexperienced users of said items.  You don't ban cars because of a few terrible drivers, this is the same IMO.

My lead always comes off on the take when I want it too, 4-5oz flat pear lead, korda hybrid clips, tail rubber on lightly, its off on the take, which I want on a weedy/snaggy lake.  If I want to keep the lead I go for a heli set-up.

Even a running setup will tangle and hold onto the lead if there's 20+ yards of coiled line attached still.  Pike are a pain for doing this - biting you off at the rod tips, happens on point swims regular.

 

I haven't deleted anything, the off topic posts are in NCB under 'Rant', 

 

 

@kevtaylor I think Run rings will come off a coil of line. I had a pike bite off a couple of weeks back. After going out I did get everything back except the lead.

It may be that a lead clip works best with heavy leads, lighter leads simply don't create the reaction for the tail rubber to come free, however the one I retrieved is a 4oz lead, still attached, quite probably bitten off at the rod tip by a pike. 

I've never liked lead clips, I simply don't think FULL STOP that they are a safe item of tackle.

 

[kevtaylor]

2 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I haven't deleted anything, the off topic posts are in NCB under 'Rant'.

 

@kevtaylor I think Run rings will come off a coil of line. I had a pike bite off a couple of weeks back. After going out I did get everything back except the lead.

It may be that a lead clip works best with heavy leads, lighter leads simply don't create the reaction for the tail rubber to come free, however the one I retrieved is a 4oz lead, still attached, quite probably bitten off at the rod tip by a pike. 

I've never liked lead clips, I simply don't think FULL STOP that they are a safe item of tackle.

 

Thankfully it's not up to you lol 

I will carry on with the lead clip because as you've pointed out, set up as I do it comes off - always! 👍

[Carpbell3]

Hey it's the rants that get people posting.

Hard to find a water that does allow leadcore some lakes pretty much insists on there own preferred set up and style of fishing.

Take it you haven't seen the One Last cast products they do a all included lead leader.

[framey]

One last cast or one more cast ?

[kevtaylor]

On 25/11/2022 at 21:14, framey said:

One last cast or one more cast ?

One last cast - sorry Ali lol