PH shift groundbait?

[elmoputney]

I've recently been listening to ideas and have started to think about pH levels and how fish are drawn to areas with a PH shift? 

Was thinking about trying to make a groundbait using low pH compost , groundbait to bind, maggots, amino liquid and some crumbed boilies on top

My thoughts being the amino groundbait mix will provide a localised pH shift without too much food and the feed items will get them feeding without overfeeding them 

The lake I am fishing seems quite gravelly but there are some silt pockets that can be found was thinking I have caught off the gravel and the silt recently but I think this may work best corrupting a hard spot at this time of year 

Anyone tried this before? 

 

[crusian]

5 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I've recently been listening to ideas and have started to think about pH levels and how fish are drawn to areas with a PH shift? 

Was thinking about trying to make a groundbait using low pH compost , groundbait to bind, maggots, amino liquid and some crumbed boilies on top

My thoughts being the amino groundbait mix will provide a localised pH shift without too much food and the feed items will get them feeding without overfeeding them 

The lake I am fishing seems quite gravelly but there are some silt pockets that can be found was thinking I have caught off the gravel and the silt recently but I think this may work best corrupting a hard spot at this time of year 

Anyone tried this before? 

 

Blimey , Elmo , you're a deep thinker aren't you 🤔.

This is way over my head , I'll leave it to someone like Yonny to answer your question , not that I'll understand the answer anyway .

🙃

 

[elmoputney]

Just now, crusian said:

Blimey , Elmo , you're a deep thinker aren't you 🤔.

This is way over my head , I'll leave it to someone like Yonny to answer your question , not that I'll understand the answer anyway .

🙃

 

I do find when I hear things I like to investigate them a bit, but I also like to keep it simple, but from what little I now understand fish can be drawn to a PH imbalance as they will want to discover what is causing it so they investigate 

[crusian]

1 hour ago, elmoputney said:

I do find when I hear things I like to investigate them a bit, but I also like to keep it simple, but from what little I now understand fish can be drawn to a PH imbalance as they will want to discover what is causing it so they investigate 

O.K. , I understand that bit , ta . 😁

So how do you locate the area of the  PH imbalance pls. ? .

Edited November 3, 2019 by crusian
Added word

[elmoputney]

5 minutes ago, crusian said:

O.K. , I understand that bit , ta . 😁

So how do you locate the area of the  PH imbalance pls. ? .

Well that's what I would be trying to falsely create with the groundbait mix, so by using a mix with a lower pH than the water it would reduce the PH in the localised area of the bait 

[dayvid]

Oh for the Black Forum ………….

[elmoputney]

5 minutes ago, dayvid said:

Oh for the Black Forum ………….

What's the Black forum? I've heard this mentioned before? 

[snowmanstevo]

Just use mole soil would that not work ? 

[dayvid]

The name was http://www.carp-forums.com/index.php but no longer exists 

The wealth of knowledge on their regarding all aspects of bait , fish response ect was second to none.

I think a few members came over here when it was pulled or died.

[elmoputney]

3 hours ago, dayvid said:

The name was http://www.carp-forums.com/index.php but no longer exists 

The wealth of knowledge on their regarding all aspects of bait , fish response ect was second to none.

I think a few members came over here when it was pulled or died.

I didn't see that one tbh, shame but I always liked this place best, in the olden days always seemed more homely and welcoming 

4 hours ago, snowmanstevo said:

Just use mole soil would that not work ? 

Yes that is also one of the things I've read a bit about but then I need to find a mole Hill and that involves more than a trip to the garden centre, if I found one I would use it 😁

[oscsha]

Would using a low ph groundbait not be counter productive if adding amino acids , won't the amino's increase the ph levels ?

Is there a reason you want to lower rather the raise the levels

How big a change do the fish detect , the change in PH levels could be why amino's work (just a thought )

Or just throw a pack of Rennie in

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by oscsha

[elmoputney]

8 hours ago, oscsha said:

Would using a low ph groundbait not be counter productive if adding amino acids , won't the amino's increase the ph levels ?

Is there a reason you want to lower rather the raise the levels

How big a change do the fish detect , the change in PH levels could be why amino's work (just a thought )

Or just throw a pack of Rennie in

 

From what little I understand of it you need a significant change of pH levels of about 2 in that area, the amino acid should be a lower pH than the water,I haven't checked that yet though tbh to see exactly what it will be but being called an acid should mean it is , but as its water soluble it will be a very temporary change, whilst I think adding the compost will also be temporary I would assume it takes longer for the shift back to take place due to the compost needing to be fully rinsed through, so may be a slightly slower process 

Lowering rather than raising it simply because it is easier to get my head around with feedstuffs already invented like amino acid liquids, maggots etc although I believe it could also work raising the pH also I just haven't even thought about that yet, 

Perhaps rennie might not be such a bad idea as they are probably heavily alkaline to combat the build up of acid in your stomach, might be a great digestion aid for the fish to combat all the amino acids they eat, 😉(i wouldn't know though so don't try this on my say so, I am just guessing  😝) 

 

 

[commonly]

In no way whatsoever do I know difference this may make chemically, a fish farmer I know, swears by rock salt as an attraction. I tried it a few times with no success, but in theory wouldn't that alter the alkalinity of the surrounding water, whilst not providing much in the way of food source, hence your Bait would be present for any curious fish!! 

Just throwing it out there elmo

[yonny]

@elmoputney on paper your theory should work but it might be tricky to execute. You're spot on that the pH shift is simply the investigation trigger, but the amino liquid will serve as a feeding trigger, and the maggots simply can't be ignored.

I have played with massively over-flavoured pop ups for their local pH changing properties but only in winter.

I haven't pursued pH change as it applies to mass baiting as imo any soluble high amino solution will serve as a better attractor.

18 hours ago, elmoputney said:

using a mix with a lower pH

You need to watch your sharpened hooks buddy. The lower the pH, the quicker the hook points will be attacked, so make sure either you protect the points very, very well with wax, or use a hook straight from the pack.

 

[yonny]

17 hours ago, snowmanstevo said:

Just use mole soil would that not work ? 

Very effective but that is due to the amino content (digested worms) rather than pH change. Imo a food signal will always be more effective than a simple investigation trigger. Certainly in any baiting situation anyway. For singles and zigs the jury is out.

[yonny]

8 minutes ago, commonly said:

a fish farmer I know, swears by rock salt as an attraction.

I'm not sure it's an attractor as such but they do need salt and if it can be applied in a pre-baiting situation (i.e. with food) it can certainly help establish an area in the longer term.

[carpepecheur]

This has been discussed before.

 

https://forum.carp.com/topic/3564-ive-learned-a-new-trickfrom-a-master/

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, yonny said:

@elmoputney on paper your theory should work but it might be tricky to execute. You're spot on that the pH shift is simply the investigation trigger, but the amino liquid will serve as a feeding trigger, and the maggots simply can't be ignored.

I have played with massively over-flavoured pop ups for their local pH changing properties but only in winter.

I haven't pursued pH change as it applies to mass baiting as imo any soluble high amino solution will serve as a better attractor.

You need to watch your sharpened hooks buddy. The lower the pH, the quicker the hook points will be attacked, so make sure either you protect the points very, very well with wax, or use a hook straight from the pack.

 

Yeah I think I might wait to try it when I next start a pre baiting campaign tbh not sure I think it is a good idea for an overnighter with winter fast approaching, I will be using some liquids though in my winter angling soluble ones naturally, and I will be adding some maggots this weekend too

I have found waxing my hooks is the only way to stop them becoming rusty that doesn't involve expensive pen type things so I have been doing that with my kids old crayons

What I have learned about salt so far is they do need it in there diet, but it is particularly useful at certain times of the year 😉

 

[elmoputney]

35 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

This has been discussed before.

 

https://forum.carp.com/topic/3564-ive-learned-a-new-trickfrom-a-master/

Just read that it was mainly people moaning about crafty carper and Des Taylor which Is a shame, it seemed they poo pooed it mainly without even trying it apart from Nick 😁

[yonny]

32 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

What I have learned about salt so far is they do need it in there diet, but it is particularly useful at certain times of the year 😉

 

So they say mate😉

Tbh I don't see how their requirements can change that much prior to and after spawning. After all, they're already re-building their ovaries and eggs just weeks after spawning. By the start of winter they're full of eggs.

[emmcee]

This ph lowering or highering has probably been flogged to death. And if it had worked ,then some clever so and so would have marketed it by now. Sometimes you can look/try too hard when just keeping things simple and going fishing is all it needs. Good luck in your quest but when I go next I'll take my trusted bag of boilies and be 100% confident.  

[yonny]

17 minutes ago, emmcee said:

Sometimes you can look/try too hard when just keeping things simple and going fishing is all it needs.

Agree 100%.

I've tried all sorts in the past when it comes to bait but my successes have had little to do with bait. Confidence and drive are more effective attributes than any bait can ever be imo.

That said, I will always check out any new ideas and theory's in the bait world. It's all part of the never ending learning curve that is carp angling.

[oscsha]

28 minutes ago, emmcee said:

This ph lowering or highering has probably been flogged to death. And if it had worked ,then some clever so and so would have marketed it by now. Sometimes you can look/try too hard when just keeping things simple and going fishing is all it needs. Good luck in your quest but when I go next I'll take my trusted bag of boilies and be 100% confident.  

 

2 minutes ago, yonny said:

Agree 100%.

I've tried all sorts in the past when it comes to bait but my successes have had little to do with bait. Confidence and drive are more effective attributes than any bait can ever be imo.

That said, I will always check out any new ideas and theory's in the bait world. It's all part of the never ending learning curve that is carp angling.

Couldn't agree more with you both .

[elmoputney]

24 minutes ago, yonny said:

So they say mate😉

Tbh I don't see how their requirements can change that much prior to and after spawning. After all, they're already re-building their ovaries and eggs just weeks after spawning. By the start of winter they're full of eggs.

I think it's just a required vitamin that they can't produce naturally that helps them to recover once they have spawned but they like to get it in advance 

12 minutes ago, emmcee said:

This ph lowering or highering has probably been flogged to death. And if it had worked ,then some clever so and so would have marketed it by now. Sometimes you can look/try too hard when just keeping things simple and going fishing is all it needs. Good luck in your quest but when I go next I'll take my trusted bag of boilies and be 100% confident.  

I've not been able to find out loads of info about it so I don't see where it has been flogged to death, wouldn't mind reading about it more though, I find it quite interesting tbh so if you've read anything about it I wouldn't mind having a look cheers 

I have found a bait I am becoming confident using tbh, and that has helped me catch  consistently more fish lately and I've got a night out coming on Sunday which I will be approaching confidently, but it doesn't hurt to try and learn more about other methods and ideas 

[emmcee]

 

5 hours ago, elmoputney said:

I think it's just a required vitamin that they can't produce naturally that helps them to recover once they have spawned but they like to get it in advance 

I've not been able to find out loads of info about it so I don't see where it has been flogged to death, wouldn't mind reading about it more though, I find it quite interesting tbh so if you've read anything about it I wouldn't mind having a look cheers 

I have found a bait I am becoming confident using tbh, and that has helped me catch  consistently more fish lately and I've got a night out coming on Sunday which I will be approaching confidently, but it doesn't hurt to try and learn more about other methods and ideas 

Maybe the finding's didn't warrant writing about, I don't know.  but I'd be quite confident it's been done and if it worked the carpvine would have been buzzing as nothing stays quiet for long in the carp world. 

On my old syndicate,  one of the members had a bait brain second to none and was a regular contributor to big carp magazine  years back. I tried reading it and it fried my brain. I used to say that he knew too much as he was always concocting this or that and on paper he had or should have had the best bait in the world but he used to blank his butt off. 

I've also read an E book by Tim Richardson (think that's his name) and that will fry your brain too. And if I'm honest I put a few things into practice and it didn't make a blind bit of difference.  

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by emmcee