Silt set up

[Lumeymorris]

Guys I've fished a venue which has a few lakes and is always quite busy so you never really get to fish the same spot twice but more to the point every time I've been I've blanked receiving knocks but not takes so I thought that it could be down to my set up as I haven't really fished much silt lakes. Now I know alight lead is a good start but with the rig side what's a good starting point say is it best to have min 10inches or am I just best going with a helicopter set up similar to the chod minus the leadcore.

[snoozer]

No expert but as know one has responed as yet i will.

What rig are you using as that may be the starting point to address ?

 

First thing i would want to know is the depth of the silt so i could present above the level, I know Carp like to grub around in silt but i would feel happier if it's at least somewhere near the top.

[salokcinnodrog]

I must admit I dislike helicopter rigs unless I absolutely have to use them, they can be responsible for no indication, funny takes and lost fish.

In fact I was using a helicopter rig a couple of weeks ago when I landed a large mirror. The same rod recast also gave two bleeps an hour later, no movement on the indicator, but when I got up in the morning the lead had been moved quite a distance, at least 20metres from the line angle, even with Delkims turned up to maximum sensitivity!

 

The Chod rig is often quoted as being brilliant on silt, but again, it is a helicopter bomb on the end of the line set-up. Helicopter rigs undoubtedly give good presentation on silt, but it is the lack of indication. You really should be hitting single bleeps and watching the line.

 

You could go back to simple, lead on a lead link or longer hook-link to get your bait in the right place, which is my preferred method of dealing with silty waters.

[keeno86]

I must admit I dislike helicopter rigs unless I absolutely have to use them, they can be responsible for no indication, funny takes and lost fish.

In fact I was using a helicopter rig a couple of weeks ago when I landed a large mirror. The same rod recast also gave two bleeps an hour later, no movement on the indicator, but when I got up in the morning the lead had been moved quite a distance, at least 20metres from the line angle, even with Delkims turned up to maximum sensitivity!

 

The Chod rig is often quoted as being brilliant on silt, but again, it is a helicopter bomb on the end of the line set-up. Helicopter rigs undoubtedly give good presentation on silt, but it is the lack of indication. You really should be hitting single bleeps and watching the line.

 

You could go back to simple, lead on a lead link or longer hook-link to get your bait in the right place, which is my preferred method of dealing with silty waters.

 

funnily enough this happened on my last trip. i was using standard bottom rigs and doing well, didnt loose a single fish, this was over silt, i was using heavy leads with an 8-10 inch soft coated braid. i had just got the new heli-safe system and wanted to give it a go so chucked a chod rig out to the same spot that was doing well. i had a number of funny indications on the delkims, but know run, when i pulled the chod in it had indeed been moved a considerable distance, i recast the chod back to the same spot, again a few funny bleeps, then it screamed off, i pulled into the fish and fought for a minute, then the fish come off, the only fish i lost that session. put me off chods for silty conditions. a longer hair on a supple hooklink is the way to go imo. chods/heli rigs dont really get used in my fishing, i was just trying out a new item on that occasion, the only time i would use them is if i had to fish over weed.

[Ddgx]

What about fishing a solid bag, Perhaps adding some pva nuggets to drop the whole lot down gently on the bottom? Someone told me about that technique once but I can't say I've ever had need to use it since. Don't know if it's the kind of setup you'd need to test in margins or tank to see how slow it would sink?

 

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[welder]

What about fishing a solid bag, Perhaps adding some pva nuggets to drop the whole lot down gently on the bottom? Someone told me about that technique once but I can't say I've ever had need to use it since. Don't know if it's the kind of setup you'd need to test in margins or tank to see how slow it would sink?

 

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Actually this works very well and has the added advantage of a small offering of freebies around the hookbait.

 

Ian

 

[yonny]

Silt is a very forgiving substrate IMO. You can chuck almost anything in it if it's set to depth correctly.

My favoured presentation is a nice bright 15 mm wafter fished on a clone rig (basically a dead simple D rig in 15 lb fluoro) approximately 8 inches in length, fished heli style with the top bead set to the depth of the silt, or just up from that. The lead plugs and pulls the leader (if you're using one...) down into the silt so the rig lays flat on top against the top bead. The plugged lead gives an awesome bolt effect and the runs you get are usually proper melters. A few 15 mm baits saturated in a glug/water mix (to prevent the on-take of silt) peppered around the area and you're good to go. Really simple, really effective.

 

I know alight lead is a good start

I actually go with a big lead to plug it into the silt as far as possible.

[keeno86]

Silt is a very forgiving substrate IMO. You can chuck almost anything in it if it's set to depth correctly.

My favoured presentation is a nice bright 15 mm wafter fished on a clone rig (basically a dead simple D rig in 15 lb fluoro) approximately 8 inches in length, fished heli style with the top bead set to the depth of the silt, or just up from that. The lead plugs and pulls the leader (if you're using one...) down into the silt so the rig lays flat on top against the top bead. The plugged lead gives an awesome bolt effect and the runs you get are usually proper melters. A few 15 mm baits saturated in a glug/water mix (to prevent the on-take of silt) peppered around the area and you're good to go. Really simple, really effective.

 

I actually go with a big lead to plug it into the silt as far as possible.

 

i agree with the lead being heavy in silt. 

[cyborx]

Silt is a very forgiving substrate IMO. You can chuck almost anything in it if it's set to depth correctly.

My favoured presentation is a nice bright 15 mm wafter fished on a clone rig (basically a dead simple D rig in 15 lb fluoro) approximately 8 inches in length, fished heli style with the top bead set to the depth of the silt, or just up from that. The lead plugs and pulls the leader (if you're using one...) down into the silt so the rig lays flat on top against the top bead. The plugged lead gives an awesome bolt effect and the runs you get are usually proper melters. A few 15 mm baits saturated in a glug/water mix (to prevent the on-take of silt) peppered around the area and you're good to go. Really simple, really effective.

 

I actually go with a big lead to plug it into the silt as far as possible.

 

 

i agree with the lead being heavy in silt. 

 

explain to a noddy, how do you gauge the depth of the silt if you are fishing say 50 or 60 yds out?

[keeno86]

explain to a noddy, how do you gauge the depth of the silt if you are fishing say 50 or 60 yds out?

 

coming from a fellow noddy its hard to gauge. if i know im fishing over silt i just do everything i can to combat it. longer hook link, a more supple one to, a stiff hooklink in deeper silt may actually sink in and leave the exposed hook link and hook actually sticking out at an angle from the lake bed. ill always use foam nuggets as well, the idea being that the hook will settle on top of the silt even if the lead has plugged in, a supple hooklink will also settle neater this way.    

[cyborx]

coming from a fellow noddy its hard to gauge. if i know im fishing over silt i just do everything i can to combat it. longer hook link, a more supple one to, a stiff hooklink in deeper silt may actually sink in and leave the exposed hook link and hook actually sticking out at an angle from the lake bed. ill always use foam nuggets as well, the idea being that the hook will settle on top of the silt even if the lead has plugged in, a supple hooklink will also settle neater this way.    

 

i make up a messy rig when i know im on silt, messy because i floss 3 or 4 nugs on the lead and put one on the hook point too.

i have dropped this in the margins and they sink nice and slow but i am missing the bolt effect that you get with a plugged lead.

[keeno86]

i make up a messy rig when i know im on silt, messy because i floss 3 or 4 nugs on the lead and put one on the hook point too.

i have dropped this in the margins and they sink nice and slow but i am missing the bolt effect that you get with a plugged lead.

 

i love the plugged in lead. imo the more weight and less movement of a lead can only pull a hook home better, obviously i wouldn't be using this if my silty area was in the middle of heavy weed. also another reason i like to use a longer hooklink, giving the bait enough natural movement but the minute the fish realizes its in trouble and bolts its like hitting a brick wall. these days i find myself using heavier and heavier leads for that reason.

[yonny]

explain to a noddy, how do you gauge the depth of the silt if you are fishing say 50 or 60 yds out?

 

Good question. 

It depends on the lake and it's an educated guess to a certain extent. First thing obviously is chuck a lead out there, see what kind of drop you get and how badly it's plugging. If it's a generally silty lake I might then have a lead about in the margins to compare, I normally find the silt in the edge is a little deeper than in the middle. A landing net handle can help here too.

If it's just a silty spot in a relatively none silty lake the drop will normally tell you all you need to know.

I used to play about with white string tied up the leader - cast out and the silt discolours the string giving you a good idea of the silt depth - I no longer do that however as it's a bit of a faff and tbh I don't think you need to be that accurate unless you're using stiff rigs (I moved to 15 lb from 25 lb fluoro for this reason).

Tbh nowadays I'll normally just have a chuck about with the lead, I've been doing this a while so can get a pretty good idea doing just that.

On the odd occasion when you find silt that's literally feet deep, you can limit plugging to say 10 inches or so by feathering the cast.

Edited July 25, 2016 by yonny

[nigewoodcock]

You can't beat going out on a boat with a prodding stick. Although, I have purchased a deeper pro + not so long ago. That gives you a good starting point.

[adamkitson]

I am a massive advocate of a rotary/helicopter rig. I fish them in many situations. For one reason because you can be almost assured of good presentation, and secondly because when set up correctly, having no knot attaching the rig to the mainline/ leader etc is about as safe as it gets. I will say agin, when set up correctly.

 

I've spent a lot of time playing around with this set up. People who are getting bad indication, it is because of how you are setting it up, normally line tension, bobbin set up, incorrect use of back leads etc. I was fishing this last week and was getting annoyed by single bleeps from roach knocking the hook bait around. Trust me, when set up right if it were moved 20 yards it would be a one toner!

 

Back to the op, it's perfect for silt! +1 on the use of string/floss for "plumbing" silt depth. Works a charm!

[salokcinnodrog]

I am a massive advocate of a rotary/helicopter rig. I fish them in many situations. For one reason because you can be almost assured of good presentation, and secondly because when set up correctly, having no knot attaching the rig to the mainline/ leader etc is about as safe as it gets. I will say agin, when set up correctly.

I've spent a lot of time playing around with this set up. People who are getting bad indication, it is because of how you are setting it up, normally line tension, bobbin set up, incorrect use of back leads etc. I was fishing this last week and was getting annoyed by single bleeps from roach knocking the hook bait around. Trust me, when set up right if it were moved 20 yards it would be a one toner!

Back to the op, it's perfect for silt! +1 on the use of string/floss for "plumbing" silt depth. Works a charm!

Sorry Adam,

 

I have played around with helicopter set-ups for over 20 years, as a silt rig, as a first choice for short or long distance, with or without the dreaded l-core, with slack or tight lines and it is responsible for a lot of funny takes and indications.

 

I definitely set it up right for long distance fishing, I don't mean a normal chuck, I mean fished at around 130metres, the line as tight as I could get it to the indicator, and I still ended up with aborted indication and a lost fish when the fish simply kited left. I don't use back leads at all.

 

This was two weeks ago, but I can give other instances from 20years worth of use.

 

Other anglers have also commented and said the same in articles in the press, and I don't think we can all be wrong. I remember one in particular as the angler concerned was fishing Wraysbury and was out in a boat checking his rigs down

[liamclose]

I fish alot of silty lakes and it's one of the easiest bottoms to fish over. Firstly the fish give away ware there feeding more than any other bottom. I useally use a lead clip rig length depends on alot of things just like on any other bottom. On one really silty estate lake I fished I done well on short hook links I only used short hooklinks because nobody else did. I do use helicopters occasionally never had any problems if I put it in the right spot it screams off and the fish are useally nailed. Used helicopter fair bit last winter had no problems. Do prefer helicopters in light silk weed or if it's very shallow and very shallow I use helicopters rig. Just look for fizzing or showing fish use a simple set up keep the disturbance down use bait and rigs you have confidence with on other lakes and you will catch in silt it's defonately not something to worry about.

[Gazlaaar]

Doesn't anyone realise this may well be down to how fish are feeding. A group of fish feed a lot more vigorously than maybe a singular to two fish. Bigger fish tend to either swim alone or with one maybe two other fish. If you watch how they feed they are a lot more cautious.

What I'm trying to say, maybe this has nothing to do with the lead set up, maybe it's more to do with the hook end. Try a pop up, an instant grab rig rather than a balanced or bottom bait, it might just be the little tweak that changes everything.

It's very rarely lead set ups that cause losses, it's more down to presentation, ie, bottom, balanced or pop up and hook sharpness.

[salokcinnodrog]

Doesn't anyone realise this may well be down to how fish are feeding. A group of fish feed a lot more vigorously than maybe a singular to two fish. Bigger fish tend to either swim alone or with one maybe two other fish. If you watch how they feed they are a lot more cautious.

What I'm trying to say, maybe this has nothing to do with the lead set up, maybe it's more to do with the hook end. Try a pop up, an instant grab rig rather than a balanced or bottom bait, it might just be the little tweak that changes everything.

It's very rarely lead set ups that cause losses, it's more down to presentation, ie, bottom, balanced or pop up and hook sharpness.

it is actually only heli set-ups that I would lose fish on on a regular basis, hookpulls, and also break-offs, where I am positive that swivels were abrading the mainline, (pre modern era heli beads, or my own adaptations I came up with).

 

Most of my dodgy indications also came on heli-rigs, definitely more than on inline or pendant semi-fixed, and I have found that on a variety of waters, with high fish stocks and low fish numbers.

I have also used pop-ups, balanced, critical and bottom baits, and experimented and compared lead set-ups 

 

With those I am  convinced that it is the heli system that at times is a failure in itself. However, it's main saviour is simply that for long distance fishing, it is the most tangle free system I have found, with one exception, but that edge I may keep to myself for a while  

[adamkitson]

Sorry Adam,

I have played around with helicopter set-ups for over 20 years, as a silt rig, as a first choice for short or long distance, with or without the dreaded l-core, with slack or tight lines and it is responsible for a lot of funny takes and indications.

I definitely set it up right for long distance fishing, I don't mean a normal chuck, I mean fished at around 130metres, the line as tight as I could get it to the indicator, and I still ended up with aborted indication and a lost fish when the fish simply kited left. I don't use back leads at all.

This was two weeks ago, but I can give other instances from 20years worth of use.

Other anglers have also commented and said the same in articles in the press, and I don't think we can all be wrong. I remember one in particular as the angler concerned was fishing Wraysbury and was out in a boat checking his rigs down

No need to be sorry Nick, I'm not the one struggling with helis after 20 years of trying. Just from that post there are several things I'd want to be doing/not doing for it to work as I use it.

 

Is it at all possible that even though you yourself have not got satisfactory results from using heli setups that it is still possible for someone to do so? Or is the implication that I'm basically lying about how sensitive it is when I'm using it?

 

Apologies for my curt response. I mean no offence. There just seems to be a run of responses that are along the lines of "well it doesn't work for me therefore it doesn't work at all." Pretty much always not the case.

[salokcinnodrog]

No mate, I don't think you are lying at all, but I have a feeling that after years of trying and using heli-rigs that someone may feel that their results are satisfactory, but actually don't know on what they are missing, whether that is indication or takes.

In fact Rod Hutchinson wrote about tight lines jammed in clips and indicators years ago not giving indications in The Carp Strikes Back.

 

Pretty much with any semi-fixed lead you only get a proper screamer when a fish runs away from you, if they run towards you get a dropback, but only once the stretch has been taken out. If a fish moves in a perfect arc, as some do, you may get a few bleeps on a Delkim type alarm, but a roller wheel won't move.

Effectively you are getting screamers from definite takes, making you think the set-up is brilliant, but how many are you or we missing from wary fish that are able to eject the hook, or from missed takes?

This is something I have tested, admittedly a silty bottomed lake (*see note below) at ranges no more than 50metres. I have seen carp eject rigs very easily with single bleeps or absolutely no indication other than a rod tip knock on helicopter leads, fished fixed, free running to a stop or as a Chod rig in all its various incarnations.

 

The best indication system I have found with a heli-lead is a springer arm indicator, tightened up as much as possible, so that as a fish takes the springer arm tightens, the clip lets go, and line is allowed to take, almost a rubber band breaking, slow to start as you stretch, then accelerate as the band snaps.

If a fish drops back towards you the arm just springs down.

 

The size lead can also make a difference, you want as heavy lead as you can cast, to basically get the line as tight as possible, but in terms of a run, as light as possible, in other words there is no perfect lead size. I have a preference for 3oz leads, but at shorter ranges a very light lead may be far better.

I use 3oz for a number of reasons, it is the right casting weight for my rods, I can get maximum distance should I need to give it the bigg'un on my waters, and for running leads it is the weight that stays still and the line is pulled through the run ring. I do think though that at shorter ranges with heli-leads I should go lighter, but I have a far better run rate with running leads and that 3oz, so I use that as a confidence thing as well.

 

 

* I also have a feeling that the lakebed itself can be responsible for different indications, and probably not what you would expect. A clear gravel, sand or clay lakebed where the line is not sinking in can give better indication than over lake beds where the line and lead is sunk or sitting in silt or weed.

 

 

.

No need to be sorry Nick, I'm not the one struggling with helis after 20 years of trying. Just from that post there are several things I'd want to be doing/not doing for it to work as I use it.

Is it at all possible that even though you yourself have not got satisfactory results from using heli setups that it is still possible for someone to do so? Or is the implication that I'm basically lying about how sensitive it is when I'm using it?

Apologies for my curt response. I mean no offence. There just seems to be a run of responses that are along the lines of "well it doesn't work for me therefore it doesn't work at all." Pretty much always not the case.

[adamkitson]

Only had a couple of full on screamers on helis. Normally it's a bobbin bouncing around without taking line off the clutch or straight to the top and staying there.

From my experience and in my opinion:

Tight lines take the sensitivity right out of it. Tried this on dry land and in water, any stretch in the line gives the fish that much extra room to move before any indication. Also means the bobbin has to be right at the top. As I said, the majority of bites I get don't take line off the clutch.

Back leads are a requirement. Without and the line must either be tight, see above, or slack enough to curve onto the lake bed which reduces sensitivity as well and allows the lead to move without indication. With enough line out under this kind of slack there comes a point where the weight of line alone is enough for the lead to move without the bobbin moving. I use fox captives. Once attached and suspended I slacken off from the clutch until the lead just sits on the bed, then attach a light bobbin and slacken from the clutch to sit the bobbin 6 inches dropped or so. This creates a delicate tension between the light bobbin, the back lead, and the lead. No slack, but no stretch. The indication does not rely on the main lead moving, it relies on the lead and back lead staying in place and the mainline being pulled left or right, at any angle. With the tension right between the leads and a light bobbin it is impossible to move the mainline more than a few inches, before the lead even moves at all, before the bobbin is bouncing.

The distance from lead to top bead is important. The longer the chuck the higher the bead needs to be. At 100 yards I'm putting it at the top of a 1m leader. Never less than 1ft from the lead. PVA foam on the hook every chuck forces the rig up to the bead as the lead hits the water. Might be a few inches back by the time it hits the deck but fairly well up there. There is movement here for the fish to run straight towards or away, but upward movement of the mainline has the same effect on the bobbin, and if the hook catches at all it'll be hard to get rid of as the back lead keeps the line straight and on the deck, pulls the hook down by the weight of the line but no lead to flick around and movement of the rig on the mainline. Very hard to shake. Drop backs are fine too, although not common as on the take the fish almost always rises off the bed when the hook hits which registers.

It's not without its faults though. Works best at 30-80 yards. Much closer and there's not really the line length for it to be balanced and solid, much further and you need a fairly light line and a very high top bead. Sometimes need to over cast on tight spots. Flourocarbon, forget it past 60 yards. Too heavy. Not an issue for me as its a rare occasion I'm casting past 70 yards.

If there's an undertow it's not ideal. The delicate tension is what makes it work. If the line bows out it becomes too tight.

Captive back leads are a bit of faff, although they do mean the system works just as well in weed, as long as there's a few feet of margin to get the back lead down clean. Deeper the better, ideally at full depth but no more than a couple of rod lengths out.

Needs a fairly heavy lead. Key to the indication is the lead staying fixed, so the movement created by the take has to go somewhere, ie the bobbin. The force required to move the weight of line from rig to bobbin has to be less than the force required to move the lead. 2.5oz up to 50 yards, 3 or even more past 50. if it's weedy and the line is pulled into weed then the heavier the better.

 

Again just my thoughts and experiences on it. I don't know if I'm missing pickups. Certainly don't get any "funny" bleeps, unless the roach are at the pop up. Line on the deck so no line bites, and I've been out in a boat over far margins and couldn't move the bait more than a few inches by pulling on the pop up without indication. It's all about what we're confident in at the end of the day, and set up like this I'm 100% confident that it's working for me. Of course if I'm proved wrong I will change!

[snowmanstevo]

After much research prior to my French trip,where tight lines was essential I used the above method,bow string lines still didn't account for the stretch of the line. A 4" sag on the line took the stretch factor out of it.

Good post Adam.