HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[commonly]

2 hours ago, crusian said:

Thanks , Elmo .

The jprecision hook is one I can look at as I'm only allowed to use barbless hooks - crimping / filing not allowed .

😃

Oh! That's why you have weird hook holds.

I'd never fish a venue with barbless rule. Say no more

[elmoputney]

10 hours ago, crusian said:

Thanks , Elmo .

The jprecision hook is one I can look at as I'm only allowed to use barbless hooks - crimping / filing not allowed .

😃

It's sounds like you are fishing in dictatorship not a fishery. 

If you are using barbless you won't need to file down the barb to remove the old hook from the kicker because the barb isn't getting in the way of the kicker sliding off. 

 

[KINDFISHER]

13 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Lots to look at!

10feet 3lb TC rods?

That in itself could be part of the problem, even though you say you don't play fish hard. If the rods are tip actioned, then you can be putting a lot of hard pressure on the fishes mouth at short range in the fight. A through action rod could be a better option, or a lighter test curve. A 10feet rod can be very stiff!

The same test curve on a 12feet rod could be nicer!

 

Your hooklink braid, what is it?

I've used various Kryston braids for over 30years, Merlin, Supernova, Silkworm in 15 or 25lb, no mouth damage. Sadly when Kryston was sold their braids became hard to get hold of, so my stocks are now running low. If you use a mainline braid, that can be a totally different material and could cause damage.

Extremely short hooklinks, my minimum is 15centimetres, 6inches. A short hooklink with a lead bouncing around very close to the hook...

Extremely sharp, hand sharpened hooks, on soft mouthed silt feeding fish, no need, just an ordinary hook out of the packet, my choice of hooks are Gardner Muggas and Solar 101's in size 4 and 6, only dropping smaller for floater fishing or to comply with lake tiles. 

Hmm, I will have a look at purchasing longer, through action rods in a lighter test curve, but this will probably be my last port of call due to cost £££

The hooklink braid is 20lb KORDA DARK MATTER SUPER-HEAVY BRAIDED HOOKLINK, I have now purchased the same braid in 30lb, some 20lb ESP TUNGSTEN LOADED SOFT and some SEMI STIFF 20lb KORDA N-TRAP ... so we shall see if this makes a difference

I have made a load of new rigs in longer lengths and am going to make them gradually shorter to see if the length is making a difference.

I have made the rigs with 2 different hooks attached, the KORDA wide gape and the sharpened KORDA KAMAKURAs in sizes 6 and 8, to see if this makes a difference.

I have also bought some lighter leads 3oz, 2.5oz and 2 oz, to see if this makes a difference.

I am also going to drop the lead, to see if this makes a difference.

Lots to be going on with, but at least it will keep me busy

[framey]

9 hours ago, KINDFISHER said:

Hmm, I will have a look at purchasing longer, through action rods in a lighter test curve, but this will probably be my last port of call due to cost £££

The hooklink braid is 20lb KORDA DARK MATTER SUPER-HEAVY BRAIDED HOOKLINK, I have now purchased the same braid in 30lb, some 20lb ESP TUNGSTEN LOADED SOFT and some SEMI STIFF 20lb KORDA N-TRAP ... so we shall see if this makes a difference

I have made a load of new rigs in longer lengths and am going to make them gradually shorter to see if the length is making a difference.

I have made the rigs with 2 different hooks attached, the KORDA wide gape and the sharpened KORDA KAMAKURAs in sizes 6 and 8, to see if this makes a difference.

I have also bought some lighter leads 3oz, 2.5oz and 2 oz, to see if this makes a difference.

I am also going to drop the lead, to see if this makes a difference.

Lots to be going on with, but at least it will keep me busy

I personally think you need to change one thing at a time first off. it may need a slightly alternate arrangement before you go wholesale at it. how will you know what component was wrong ??

 

 

[salokcinnodrog]

9 hours ago, KINDFISHER said:

Lots to be going on with, but at least it will keep me busy

 

15 minutes ago, framey said:

I personally think you need to change one thing at a time first off. it may need a slightly alternate arrangement before you go wholesale at it. how will you know what component was wrong ??

 

 

As @framey says, change one thing at a time.

9 hours ago, KINDFISHER said:

I am also going to drop the lead, to see if this makes a difference.

It does, it's called littering, fly tipping, pollution...

Strictly speaking it is illegal!

Personal thought, I do not like leadclips, nor dropping leads, I still use running leads or inline leads and the only leadclips I own are those I have found and retrieved, attached to other people's break-offs, most still had lead attached. I've found 2, 2.5oz, 4 and 5oz leads, but strangely none of the sizes I prefer, 3 or 3.5oz.

In weedy waters, an inline distance lead will frequently not catch up on the weed, whereas even an empty leadclip does.

 

[crusian]

12 hours ago, elmoputney said:

It's sounds like you are fishing in dictatorship not a fishery. 

If you are using barbless you won't need to file down the barb to remove the old hook from the kicker because the barb isn't getting in the way of the kicker sliding off. 

 

 

20 hours ago, commonly said:

Oh! That's why you have weird hook holds.

I'd never fish a venue with barbless rule. Say no more

I don't mind using barbless hooks as I  used to stress when I struggled to unhook a fish , but now the hook falls out in the net a lot of the time .

I agree that not having a barb on the hook means the hook  can move around in the Carp's mouth causing tears especially if I need to apply pressure to keep the Carp away from snags .

However , I love the lake I fish , especially as there are more match anglers than Carp anglers so there's not so much competition ; sometimes just me against the Carp .

😃 

[KINDFISHER]

1 hour ago, framey said:

I personally think you need to change one thing at a time first off. it may need a slightly alternate arrangement before you go wholesale at it. how will you know what component was wrong ??

 

 

Yep, that's exactly what I'm going to do ... I'm going to change one component, make a note of what I use and see if it makes a difference.  Then if it has made the difference then bingo, but if not I'll make another change and so on, and so on

[KINDFISHER]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

As @framey says, change one thing at a time.

It does, it's called littering, fly tipping, pollution...

Strictly speaking it is illegal!

Personal thought, I do not like leadclips, nor dropping leads, I still use running leads or inline leads and the only leadclips I own are those I have found and retrieved, attached to other people's break-offs, most still had lead attached. I've found 2, 2.5oz, 4 and 5oz leads, but strangely none of the sizes I prefer, 3 or 3.5oz.

In weedy waters, an inline distance lead will frequently not catch up on the weed, whereas even an empty leadclip does.

 

Personally, I've never used a lead clip or dropped a lead either, but it has been suggested as a solution to the problem.  I didn't know that it was illegal, and I'm now wondering why the myriad of companies that sell them, are allowed to continue to make money out of them if it's illegal ???

[KINDFISHER]

56 minutes ago, crusian said:

 

I don't mind using barbless hooks as I  used to stress when I struggled to unhook a fish , but now the hook falls out in the net a lot of the time .

I agree that not having a barb on the hook means the hook  can move around in the Carp's mouth causing tears especially if I need to apply pressure to keep the Carp away from snags .

However , I love the lake I fish , especially as there are more match anglers than Carp anglers so there's not so much competition ; sometimes just me against the Carp .

😃

 

[salokcinnodrog]

10 hours ago, KINDFISHER said:

Personally, I've never used a lead clip or dropped a lead either, but it has been suggested as a solution to the problem.  I didn't know that it was illegal, and I'm now wondering why the myriad of companies that sell them, are allowed to continue to make money out of them if it's illegal ???

Littering is an antisocial habit, you can be fined for it, ergo illegal.

Throwing rubbish on the ground is an eyesore, pollution etc, pick your description, but because dropping the lead is not so 'obvious' or seen in the water it became mainstream advice from various tackle brands. 

Leadclip's were originally designed for creating a semi-fixed set-up, with the advantage of being able to take your lead off at the end of the session, or change the lead size mid session.

 

[elmoputney]

13 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

 

As @framey says, change one thing at a time.

It does, it's called littering, fly tipping, pollution...

Strictly speaking it is illegal!

Personal thought, I do not like leadclips, nor dropping leads, I still use running leads or inline leads and the only leadclips I own are those I have found and retrieved, attached to other people's break-offs, most still had lead attached. I've found 2, 2.5oz, 4 and 5oz leads, but strangely none of the sizes I prefer, 3 or 3.5oz.

In weedy waters, an inline distance lead will frequently not catch up on the weed, whereas even an empty leadclip does.

 

Wow not at all contrary, imagine if you were more outraged at water companies that dump Actual sewage in our waterways. 

 

 

 

[salokcinnodrog]

2 hours ago, elmoputney said:

Wow not at all contrary, imagine if you were more outraged at water companies that dump Actual sewage in our waterways. 

 

 

 

Believe me I am disgusted and have signed gawd knows how many petitions, barracked my MP, who is a virtue signaller,  against his vote to continue to allow sewage to be pumped into waterways, (then made a newspaper article to clean up the local river, ignoring why its in such a state).

 

 

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Believe me I am disgusted and have signed gawd knows how many petitions, barracked my MP, who is a virtue signaller,  against his vote to continue to allow sewage to be pumped into waterways, (then made a newspaper article to clean up the local river, ignoring why its in such a state).

 

 

If only the nation hadn't lost its mind and allowed Borismania to sweep through with a long trail of destruction, I hope you will be voting green next time as they are the only ones serious about stopping it. 

[framey]

6 hours ago, elmoputney said:

If only the nation hadn't lost its mind and allowed Borismania to sweep through with a long trail of destruction, I hope you will be voting green next time as they are the only ones serious about stopping it. 

To heck with voting green 

you will lose angling then 

Edited October 8, 2023 by salokcinnodrog
To remove a naughtiness

[elmoputney]

4 hours ago, framey said:

To heck with voting green

you will lose angling then 

Not at all I've already spoken to them about it, while they don't fundamentally agree with it, they don't mention it directly in their policies and you know if we keep letting the tories and labour dump turds all over the shop we won't have any fishing anyway, apart from poop fishing. 

https://greenparty.org.uk/political-programme.html

[salokcinnodrog]

6 hours ago, elmoputney said:

If only the nation hadn't lost its mind and allowed Borismania to sweep through with a long trail of destruction, I hope you will be voting green next time as they are the only ones serious about stopping it. 

I won't be voting Green, they have no idea on actual environmental issues, and are against angling and other outdoor pursuits.

Nor will I be voting Lib Dem, Labour or Conservative. Sadly the political system is not suitable for purpose.

Until we can get rid of political parties we are screwed. We almost need a benign dictatorship, or a King Alfred the Great circle of elders representing everyone.

[elmoputney]

2 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I won't be voting Green, they have no idea on actual environmental issues, and are against angling and other outdoor pursuits.

Nor will I be voting Lib Dem, Labour or Conservative. Sadly the political system is not suitable for purpose.

Until we can get rid of political parties we are screwed. We almost need a benign dictatorship, or a King Alfred the Great circle of elders representing everyone.

You must be thinking about voting Reform party then lol. 

[Kentcarp]

On 05/10/2023 at 12:11, KINDFISHER said:

Hi all, sorry for the length of this post, but the information is all relevant.  I am a seasoned angler of 40 years plus and have enjoyed all types of fishing in this time.  I am predominantly a carp angler and have fine tuned my tactics over the years, both with ideas of my own and information gleaned from the famous and those not so famous, from books, magazines internet etc. etc.  I’m not gonna boast, but the main method I use catches me a hell of a lot of fish when others around me seem to struggle.  However, I have come up against a problem, which is the result of the method that I use, and although I’m catching a lot of carp I need to change things.  The problem is, that the fish I’m catching seem to be suffering mouth damage in the scissors section of the mouth - sometimes on one side, sometimes on both.  I have been using propolis on the damage and carp disinfectant where appropriate, but I’m not prepared to carry on with the damage that I’m seeing.  I fish all types of lakes and catch all sizes of carp.  So, I’m using 10ft 3lb test curve rods, 16lb fluorocarbon mainline, 2 blobs (about the size of a large pea) of heavy metal putty on the mainline about 8 inches and then 16 inches above an 18 inch length of anti tangle tubing (to protect the carps flanks), anti tangle tubing plugs into a tail rubber which attaches to an inline pear lead (3oz or 4oz).  I have my rods on alarms, with heavyish bobbins that register the bite quickly, and have my lines reasonably tight, but not bow string tight, as I like to have the line resting on the bottom about 4 feet from my lead.  I have my rod butts sometimes on the floor (due to rock hard banks and not wanting to smash banksticks in - scaring all the carp away and naffing off every angler in the vicinity) and sometimes in a butt holder of some description.  I fish big pit reels with baitrunners, with the baitrunner clutch set anywhere from no give ( if anywhere near bushes, reeds et) to fairly loose if in open water.  My mainline is then threaded through the anti tangle tubing etc and attached to my rig via a 6 turn full blood knot to a size 8 swivel that plugs into the lead.  My rig consists of a size 6 or 8 wide gape micro barbed hook or similar sharpened variety, tied onto soft 20lb braid (varying between 4 inches and 6 inches) via a 4 turn grinner knot.  The braid is then tied to the size 8 swivel via the same knot.  Both knots have a blob of rig glue applied.  I whip a hair onto the hook using fine sewing thread material, and the hair leaves the hook opposite the hook point.  The whipping uses a small blob of rig glue. I then have a one inch piece of shrink tubing which covers the hair whipping and the hook knot and extends the length of hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve (line aligner style).  I solely use PVA  bags, which contain my lead and rig, which are separated by 2/3 the length of the rig that I am using.  The bag is filled with pellets, boiles and various powders / groundbait and other goodies that the carp find attractive.  Due to the effectiveness of my rig and boilie attachment, coupled with the PVA bag, most of my catches are nailed in the bottom of the mouth somewhere and rarely come out - in fact I only lose one or two fish in every hundred runs.  The hook holds sometimes can be seen to have moved a bit initially, but this results in only small scratches or tears, which can easily heal with the aid of the carp care products that I use.  I don’t play the fish hard and don’t drag them out of snags or reeds etc, although I will put some pressure on them to keep them out of said snags or reeds etc so that they don’t damage themselves or get snarled up in their bid for freedom.  I use a 42 inch landing net which I use to carry them to the unhooking mat, making sure that the line from the rod tip to the rig has slack line so that it doesn’t pull on the fish whilst being transported.  I am very proficient at unhooking them once on the bank and the hooks are removed with relative ease and no excessive damage.  So, as I said at the beginning, I am catching a hell of a lot of carp with my methods (not gonna give my hook baits or bag mix away, as to be honest these are probably my biggest edge) but the mouth damage in the scissors is not acceptable to me, so something has to change.  All thoughts welcome and feel free to ask questions and give helpful opinions.  Tight lines to you all and thanks in advance 🙂👍🏻  

 

[Kentcarp]

Kindfisher has/had the same issues I have/had which are unacceptable but not sure the culprit.

Same mouth damage but using size 8 krank micro barbed hooks on a Ronnie type hook on a 5 inch stiff 25lb boom but with an inline 19g guru lead. SOOO not the hook link (too thick) not the lead (too light) not the rod 2.25 12ft Powermesh (too light and through action). Two 12mm bottom baits (match the hatch) bollies on micro hook swivel over a bed of pellet and bollies.

Almost no hook pulls but unacceptable mouth damage mainly in scissors (very few bottom lip holds).

So what the heck is causing the damage???

   

[framey]

18 minutes ago, Kentcarp said:

Kindfisher has/had the same issues I have/had which are unacceptable but not sure the culprit.

Same mouth damage but using size 8 krank micro barbed hooks on a Ronnie type hook on a 5 inch stiff 25lb boom but with an inline 19g guru lead. SOOO not the hook link (too thick) not the lead (too light) not the rod 2.25 12ft Powermesh (too light and through action). Two 12mm bottom baits (match the hatch) bollies on micro hook swivel over a bed of pellet and bollies.

Almost no hook pulls but unacceptable mouth damage mainly in scissors (very few bottom lip holds).

So what the heck is causing the damage???

   

Could be a number of things 

estate lake silt feeders have softer mouths thats gravel pit carp 

using a hook is going to cause mouth damage of some description 

only way to stop it 100% is to stop fishing.

are you using the hook swivel the correct way around so the open crook on the swivel is at the back? 
that makes a difference 

Edited September 3 by framey

[Kentcarp]

Hook swivel can only go one way (open end to hook eye so it can be changed and the closed end tied to the hook link). It is then covered by a kicker so not sure how that could have anything to do with mouth damage? What might be the other 'number of things' be that you mention?   

[yonny]

10 hours ago, Kentcarp said:

So what the heck is causing the damage???

Try a size 4. I always found the hardware (micro ring/spinner swivel etc) could lead to damage with smaller hooks (6/8). I also found this could lead to losses. Switching up to 4's and even 2's eliminated this for me.

[yonny]

8 hours ago, Kentcarp said:

Hook swivel can only go one way (open end to hook eye so it can be changed and the closed end tied to the hook link).

It can go two ways - with the crook of the quick change facing the tip or the back of the hook. It should face the back of the hook👍

[crusian]

40 minutes ago, yonny said:

It can go two ways - with the crook of the quick change facing the tip or the back of the hook. It should face the back of the hook👍

Yes , that's what Framey was saying now , and has said before .

😃