HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[framey]

Can’t be bothered to read back as I can smell an argument brewing lol

whilst I have never had a knotless knot slip per se 

they do twist around the hook shank unless, you whip back up the shank a turn or 2.

most people won’t see it as the knot is covered by a bit of tubing.

I used to use superglue but it just goes off in the tackle box and leaks everywhere so now don’t bother 👍🫣

 

when I was a lot younger 

we did a job at Loctite when it was based in Welwyn garden city and I was given a few tubes of it, one of the boffs there used it for fishing.

 

[yonny]

Just had a read back through this thread and one thing that's not mentioned (unless I missed it) is the size of the carp being caught.

Catching small carp on big carp tackle is imo a prime cause of mouth damage. Even with lighter gear, care needs to be taken so as not to damage the mouth of smaller carp.

I don't bother with superglue personally. Not sure why folks are getting wound up about the should/shouldn't of it. Most of my fishing is done with pop ups although I have experimented with very fine braids in bags. Never had an issue with mouth damage. I always use shrink tube to extend the hook shank which I think helps. I'm normally fishing for bigger carp anyway so mouth damage tends not to be a problem.

[salokcinnodrog]

27 minutes ago, yonny said:

Just had a read back through this thread and one thing that's not mentioned (unless I missed it) is the size of the carp being caught.

Catching small carp on big carp tackle is imo a prime cause of mouth damage. Even with lighter gear, care needs to be taken so as not to damage the mouth of smaller carp.

I don't bother with superglue personally. Not sure why folks are getting wound up about the should/shouldn't of it. Most of my fishing is done with pop ups although I have experimented with very fine braids in bags. Never had an issue with mouth damage. I always use shrink tube to extend the hook shank which I think helps. I'm normally fishing for bigger carp anyway so mouth damage tends not to be a problem.

I don't think that you missed it, unless I am blind as well...

The size of the fish is a big consideration. The BHR supposedly caused loads of mouth damage, I can't argue that, but I personally never found any on the 20lb + I was fishing for. 

'Bait reliant' or 'overstocked' waters I'm sure also get fish with mouth damage more than those with plenty of natural food. They may be getting hooked more frequently than those than don't need bait.

I found loads of fish with mouth damage on a water where 10lb was a good fish. Match anglers, those getting into carp fishing, 'pleasure' anglers, all types of (barbless) hooks were being used. 

I think that the knotless knot slippage issue is down to tying, not superglue to hold it, but taking the coils down the shank. I always used the hair exit point as opposite between the point and barb of the hook. That can be as many as 20coils! Those that use 3 or 4, maybe 7 it will slip.

As for braids in the mouth, hookholds and helping to reduce ejection, I have used line aligners for years, whenever Jim Gibbinson first wrote about it, however many years ago, and extended the hookshank with tubing.

The superglue and braid issue. I'm sorry, I have tested it, yes it does cause knots to fracture. You look at a hooked fish, as you play it, it changes direction. The hooklink to hook knot, or other attachment, moves with those changes. If it is rigid, held in place, it can't. The fracture point is either at the eye of the hook, or just above the top of the superglue, the places that need movement.

 

As for hooklink braid, I think Dave Chilton mentioned years ago that he was looking at materials used in the upholstery industry and went to them for the original hooklinks.

[kevtaylor]

12 hours ago, Barney2 said:

dont be afraid to keep things simple, ESPECIALLY on hard lakes!!

I like this, when the fish have seen it all I find myself tying a standard hair with a bottom bait and tiny funnel web of crumb- simple as it gets, and works 👍

No baiting just a trap in the zone.

[elmoputney]

I can't help thinking supple uncoated braid causes damage, especially if you have a big lead swinging about 4 inches from the fishes face, but yeah most fish on my syndicate with mouth damage came from when the lake used to be a match lake, we are now trying to catch them ones and retire them to another pond.

[kevtaylor]

23 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I can't help thinking supple uncoated braid causes damage, especially if you have a big lead swinging about 4 inches from the fishes face, but yeah most fish on my syndicate with mouth damage came from when the lake used to be a match lake, we are now trying to catch them ones and retire them to another pond.

Friend of mine was getting mouth damage in Italy, problem seemed to be the 15lb supple braid cutting the corners of the mouth.  Think he just upped the BS, it was odd and out the blue - no previous issues.

🤷‍♂️

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, kevtaylor said:

Friend of mine was getting mouth damage in Italy, problem seemed to be the 15lb supple braid cutting the corners of the mouth.  Think he just upped the BS, it was odd and out the blue - no previous issues.

🤷‍♂️

Kind of like a Chelsea smile???? It's why I stopped using uncoated braid, it happened to me. Now I've got the double beep shock rig I can use any rig I want with a mesh bag, usually a spinner tbh 😉if it ain't broke and all that. 

[salokcinnodrog]

I went back to the Korda website and looked at the hooklink braids, and may have found the answer, although not described in the particular hooklink is just 'extremely tough fibres', but others in the range definitely contain Dyneema. It means that for the breaking strain they are likely to be extremely thin.

Kryston hooklinks are made from Spectra, which although the same chemical composition is formed differently and so thicker for any given breaking strain.

Digging around the science I found this:

"Technically all braid is made from PE (polyethylene). Both Spectra and Dyneema are made from PE and Spectra filaments are usually thicker and more robust, while Dyneema filaments are thinner. 

Dyneema is generally cheaper than Spectra per strand so lower end line companies using Dyneema put out inferior braid."

 

With my preference for Kryston products that could explain why I never had such problems as the OP

 

I hope that we can now lay this down to bed...

[elmoputney]

Have you ever tried the spliceable hooklinks you can get ? 

They might be a good alternative to braid. 

[salokcinnodrog]

On 22/04/2025 at 17:38, elmoputney said:

Have you ever tried the spliceable hooklinks you can get ? 

They might be a good alternative to braid. 

You can splice a number of braids, from the original Kesmark Octosplice, Kryston Merlin, SuperNova, even the various ESP braids. It takes no longer to splice than tying a knot, and I can do it on the bank.

As I have mentioned, those made with Dyneema are the problem, it is thinner than Spectra.

[nutty squid]

I've never been happy with braid hooklinks, or inline leads. I nearly always use a lead clip set up. I use 1 to 1.5 oz leads on silty venues, going up to 4 oz on hard bottomed lakes. I use size 6 or 4 hooks. The only mouth damage I recall was slippage from a curve shank kd rig, an 11lb common, 3 oz leads at distance. I think the hook didn't set properly. I tend to use barbless hooks.

[elmoputney]

If you like a wide gape have a look at the ESP Claw Hammer, lovely hooks and sharp out the packet too. 

[bluelabel]

One of my pet peeves is anglers using rods far too heavy for a water... I was on a small clubbie a wee while ago, and a lad was using a pair of 3.5lb rods and big pit reels on a small water with fish of less than 30lbs...  probably using 15-18lb line where you can quite happily land a 20 on a light 1.5lb/1.75lb rod and 8-10lb line... balanced tackle is far better than overgunned rods... I appreciate that it may have been that he can only afford one set of rods, but I think a chunk of the blame has to be laid at the feet of the media for advocating heavy gear on their videos, and not making a point in telling folks the heavy gear isn't required for a large majority of UK carping.

Unforgiving, heavy poundage rods are just not required and in the hands of the inexperienced can and will cause mouth damage, especially in conjunction with a tight clutch...

[framey]

17 hours ago, bluelabel said:

One of my pet peeves is anglers using rods far too heavy for a water... I was on a small clubbie a wee while ago, and a lad was using a pair of 3.5lb rods and big pit reels on a small water with fish of less than 30lbs...  probably using 15-18lb line where you can quite happily land a 20 on a light 1.5lb/1.75lb rod and 8-10lb line... balanced tackle is far better than overgunned rods... I appreciate that it may have been that he can only afford one set of rods, but I think a chunk of the blame has to be laid at the feet of the media for advocating heavy gear on their videos, and not making a point in telling folks the heavy gear isn't required for a large majority of UK carping.

Unforgiving, heavy poundage rods are just not required and in the hands of the inexperienced can and will cause mouth damage, especially in conjunction with a tight clutch...

The problem is the “distributors” 

(I use that word as most are made by someone else anyway)

are telling us that’s what we need so the lower test curve rods are just not available anymore because the “celebs/stars” are using heavy rods

whether that be 6 footers 

10 footers or 13 footers.

 

I don’t have a problem with higher tc rods per se but the action isn’t kind on them as most are fast to enable distance casting. Couple that with the modern reels that the clutch is either tight or loose because everyone of the “stars/celebs” and their dog are using quick clutch reels.

[bluelabel]

Was a time when you could get lower poundage rods, now 3lb seems the minimum and to be honest for a lot of waters it just isn't needed... My 9' Dwarfs are 2.75lb through action, lovely playing rods for small waters, and I think they are a bit heavy... But the "Stars" as you rightly say advocate heavy rods to cast big weights a long way... for goodness sake a 3.75lb rod (4lb Kaizens... really...????) They are beachcasters or light spod rods fer crying out loud... these rods have no business on a carp pool in the UK... and I don't care what others think, these rods in the wrong hands are  prime suspects in mouth damage... 

[yonny]

9 hours ago, Barney2 said:

short high test curve rods

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

[salokcinnodrog]

4 hours ago, yonny said:

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

Manufacturers and tackle brands with their own media production. It has gotten to the stage that you can't easily get 'sensible' tackle.

I've been arguing the toss about it for years. 

Practice casting is no more as 'high test curve rods will cure the distance shortage immediately'. Years ago in the 1990's I was hitting over 100metres with 2¼lb TC rods, admittedly with 8lb line and leader, and eventually switched up to 2¾lb rods with 15lb line, line which has become standard, to get the same distance.

Nazeing Central and South was a real eye opener, I needed to hit 150metres, so went to 3.25lb rods.

Everything was in 12ft, I could get those distances.

The shorter rods just didn't seem right, especially as I have been to casting tournaments and seen rods get longer from 12ft, to 12ft6in, 13ft even 14ft.

I get a shorter rod for stalking, it makes sense, but not in a massive test curve with a tip action.

[OldBoy]

Just to poke my nose in....

I have been fishing for over 50 years, brought up by fishing on river mole and Thames for catching Dace, Chub, gudgeon and also bleak bashing!

Very light tackle in those days, learnt how to play fish in, barbless hooks, used to be used for match fishing to improve hooking for dace.

Anyway, move on... times have 'sadly' changed, pot noodle carpers seem to think fishing day ticket waters with as stated before 3.5 test curve rods, 15lb line and hauling some poor double in....

Without dought I think this causes soo much damage.

I now longer fish day ticket waters, however I unforturnatly expect to see the same on my club lake soon.

As for hooks, barbless really dont do more damage, only hook I remember was the Rob Maylin bent hook which was an absolute no no!

[jules007]

10 hours ago, yonny said:

I'm still amazed that this trend has taken off.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with high TC rods, but for me they exist to hit distance, and for that you need length too. If you don't need to hit distance then I cannot see why anyone would choose a higher TC. It's a compromise for casting because you don't have the length, and a compromise for playing fish because the TC is too high..... worst of both worlds!

Setting myself up for a slap here having just got 10ft 3.5lb rods, TBH i was hoping they would be on the soft side of 3.5 but they are not, i wont be keeping them any time but if i do happen to hook a carp it will be played with care, like a few have said its getting hard to get what you really would like unless willing to pay a huge price TBH i have a lovely set of 11ft 2.5lb rods that i was told "too soft" i think i will be going back to these rods