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Boilie price drops, why?


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On 05/09/2021 at 19:33, salokcinnodrog said:

Sorry mate, stop trying to pick holes; I have seen it and done it on Earith. That amount. No other bait produced, the fish wanted the bait, and would not take other baits other angler's fished. They may have eaten other angler's baits, but were not preoccupied enough to take the hookbait.

They may well have eaten natural food, but if you wanted to catch then the only bait that produced was a version of Trigga. 

Sorry, simples!

Seeds do not produce the addiction of tigers and peanuts. They produce pre-occupation at the time, they may well avoid larger baits while eating them. I have seen carp feed on hemp alone, leaving tares that were fished with them, but sometimes they will pick up other foods. 

As for a fishery, I hate to tell you, I used to run them for a living, so understand the biology and ecology. I understand 'survival over health'. Carp try to survive, in an overstocked water they have NO CHOICE but to eat everything, anglers bait. Survival is their first choice. You really are ignoring that type of water, and even confirming exactly what I said. 

If you have an overstocked water, reduce the biomass of fish, take it down to an acceptable level. If the water can naturally support 800lb of fish then taking it down to 600lb will provide room for them to grow. Commercial waters can't take it down to 'understocked', they need anglers fishing and catching. 

 

 

It's a debate, not an argument. If you don't want to have another opinion then say so, but I simply do not believe carp can become preoccupied on such little bait, unless other we're in on the baiting campaign??. Have you added that into the thought process?  People in denial, simply don't won't other people offering them an alternative view, its a we'll know syndrome for deniers. It's fine to give me your credentials, but you don't know mine do you? If its true you did indeed manage waters in a professional capacity, then I'm sorry your writing and explanation simply does not suggest that, so do you have a professional qualification in aquaculture? That would be a BSc hon degree, yes?  I put to you or a professional person, your not reading my post clearly enough, I did not ignore the type of water, in fact I gave you the three examples, high food type, med food type, low food type. I'm keeping it simple for full understand. Water management is for more than just bait my friend, or just taking out a few fish, it's far more complicated than that. For fish to maintain an optimum level of health, avoid stress or disease then the water quality of the water must be monitored and controlled 24/7. Fish become stressed when key water quality parameters such as temperature, pH nitrogenous waste, dissolved oxygen and salinity are not kept with specified thresholds. Its not an argument, I'm not telling you what to think, it's only what I think, and why I think your analogy is incorrect. It was you that said you managed waters, and had an understanding of biology and ecology, so you should be comfortable holding your own in a simple debate, you must have had to in your work?  I still genuinely believe we are being taken in on the bait, boilie front. Unless you bait in huge quantities, no one bait will out fish another, why, the carp have no way of knowing what is good for them. I'll give you a true story of genuine pre-occupation. 

On one water I fish we seem to have had a few feral pigeons, clearly lost. They were looking really ill and not eating bread or sweetcorn donated by anglers. One chap (cleverly) said they were use to only eating seeds, so he started bringing in bird seeds, and the birds flourished, we have maybe a dozen now.    Because from birth those birds only knew seed as food, they did not recognise any other food type. full preoccupation. It's just an example, because carp have been raised to eat anything and will try anything that looks like food.    Kind regards, Richard.

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Maybe you have just brought into the carp bait con, and are in denial?   It Goes last on my list, after Being quiet, watching the water, location, moving onto fish, getting a good drop, and my own water craft and making chances during the day, and fishing only one rod at a time.  Yonny, I seem you spend an extraordinary amount of time on forums my friend, and it makes me wonder how often you actually fish, I'm sure forums are a great source or friendship and plain fun, but nothing beats gong fishing and catching fish. Maybe you fish 7 days a week, I'm sure you will correct me😉. This season I've fished much like I've carp fished all my life, I make chances for myself. I don't like to style myself on other anglers, because most fish out of the box, but I do like Oli Davis as he seems to fish much like myself, he puts a lot of hard work in and gets results. Currently I've moved away from big fish waters I use to frequent like A1 pits, just to catch up on my life and enjoy the actual event of fishing. Where I fish I see carp anglers come and go, very few catch fish, because as mentioned they fish out of the box, clone style, thinking, like yourself the bait is the key. I don't see anyone making chances on theses trips, they bait and wait, fine if that's what you like. Most of the fish are very old, real big tails and stunning with it, many have a high percentage of Koi in them, but don/t grow over big, 25lb tops maybe. But at 70 I'm happy catching them, I have a target of a number of 20lb fish I'd like to catch in my lifetime, but that won't happen here and I may have to shelve that target Yonny. Just to confirm, my argument is not that boilies don't work, they do clearly. What I don't believe is that a carp can tell one for the other, or they can tell its doing them good, and that without huge baiting programmes, they don't choose one over the other as preference.  Just a few nice fish from August Yonney Best wishes. Richard.

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47 minutes ago, yonny said:

Considering you keep referencing the principles of debate you don't half come up with some strange responses mate.

I only use boiled baits for certain times of the year when I believe they're at their most effective. Those are the periods when the carp will choose the aminos they detect with their gustatory and the olfactory senses over other baits such as particles. The best way to offer them that is a top quality fishmeal boilie. Imo.

You'd be right to wonder how often I go fishing. I have a full time job and a wonderful young family at home that are the priority in my life. I normally get a day or two on the bank per month which goes about halfway to satisfying my love of angling. Luckily it's just enough to achieve results and if you read through the catch reports on here you'll see I do OK given my limited time.

A1 Pits is just round the corner from me. A proper circus I'm sure you'll agree. 

Unlike you I do still target big fish waters which as you can imagine given the time I have is a very tall order. "Being quiet, watching the water, location, moving onto fish, getting a good drop, and my own water craft" are simple pre-requisites on such waters. Without them you'd blank all year.

Each to their own mate. For me the ultimate feeding trigger (in terms of boiled baits) is the key aminos released as the proteins in a well balanced active bait break down. You cannot achieve that with soya and flavouring.

But ultimately I think confidence goes a long way to being successful so if you're happy with the bait you use and you're happy with your results then none of the above matters 👍

P.S. The way you babble on about 'debate' when you clearly really struggle to reply to anyone without sounding condescending and patronizing will not win you any friends Dicky.

 

We'll think about this, I've fished all my life, three days a week. I don't put myself up as an expert, and answer almost every question on carp forums. For a person that fishes so little, I wonder how you get the experience to offer such advice all the time on a wide range of topic and have an opinion on such a space amount of fishing. Who's conning who?😇  I'm genuinely please you have such a good home-life far too many people have relationship problem through a total obsession with our sport, its sad to see so much gear on E-Bay that someone paid a fortune for being sold for salt?  You quote aminos and proteins as if you know all about them, but do you REALLY, or is it what the carp industry and all those EXPERTS have said in conversation you're simply copying maybe? Could you write a scientific paper on them for an audience? Sorry you feel that way about me, but I'm sick to death with frauds, and people that put themselves up as expects, but don't have the lineage to offer it. Yonny, maybe we can have some accord on this then, the average carp angler has a massive ego that hates to be challenged, if they say something against the "status quo" as I'm doing now, all you get is derision. It's clear you have never attended a proper debating platform, i'ts proper to be polite, but you can disagree and remain respectful of others. However the people you debate with must have some credibility in the first place? And yes, your first statement is right, it's important to keep to the facts (terms of reference) of the debate and not go off on a tangent. Its clear even though I've stated it several time, you still don't understand what I'm saying sadly, your missing the point I'm trying to make as politely as possible. I ask you to just re-read my objection to the carp bait fallacy. Best regards Richard.

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One question then, just one to answer. You mentioned Earith and Trigga bait. From memory it had a very strange smell, almost sickly. 20 kilo and 1 kilo a week and total domination and (your words) other baits were ignored. So had you ever thought it could simply be the taste and smell the fish like? And not what was in the bait, you have to if you're a logical person admit that could be a factor. The fish simply loved the smell of the bait, and were drawn towards it.

I do actually have a good back ground in what we are talking about and could send you some papers on the subject if you're interested? Out of interest how often do you fish now? 

If we walk past a fish and chip shop, or Chinese, we often comment on how the smell induces a taste bud reaction in us. It makes us salivate and want to taste that food. Carp don't have the same receptors as us, they are much stronger. People never seem to want to look at alternatives, only what they want to see if it suits their own narrative?  Again your analysis on Brackens pool, how do you know for sure. Maybe you are just a better angler with more experience, maybe you fished more than anyone else. If you don't want to be taken seriously you would have to factor all that and more, in to prove it was the bait, don't you see that?  

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11 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

You keep giving conflicting opinions of your own debate. You have and are continuing to ignore the type of water. Overstocked waters, the carp need to eat everything to survive, they do not necessarily grow to their full potential.

Look at Redmire, simple. Some good spawning years in the early 1970's, the top weight of a particular fish was 38. When some fish were removed from the water, removing excess stock, and sold on that self same fish suddenly along with others put weight on again, and eventually broke 51lb to Chris Yates. 

 

Carp will and do shy away from eating rubbish bait. Put in an attractor bait shelfie, that does not provide everything they need, and they can leave it. You are relying on the attractor levels to try to provoke a take, yet put that bait in as a feed bait, in excess, they leave them. 

So why have you gone off on a tangent?

[quote] ("On one water I fish we seem to have had a few feral pigeons, clearly lost. They were looking really ill and not eating bread or sweetcorn donated by anglers. One chap (cleverly) said they were use to only eating seeds, so he started bringing in bird seeds, and the birds flourished") [\quote] 

Birds are not carp! 

Is it because your argument is invalid and you are trying to muddy the waters? 

Even tench can discriminate between a decent boilie and a cack one. If you are fishing a cack boilie the flavour needs to be changed frequently as even they the tench, realise that they are playing Russian Roulette, (Chris Turnbull). 

 

I keep having to make the point about the stock level of a water, but even @Carpbell_ll has pointed out that on a higher level stock that the carp can discriminate on types of boilie. 

You do not like being shown to be incorrect or that your opinion is not necessarily the correct one. Maybe time to take a step back and wonder why so many people are pointing that out.😉

As for me, let's see, 45 years an angler, fishing for carp since the 1980's on various types of water, high and low stock waters, some small intimate pools to almost inland seas, 350 acre reservoirs, and continually the best bait catches the fish. 

On Thwaite, a few years ago, between Christmas and New Year I fished a week session. For 2 days the hi-attract pop-ups produced a few fish. From day 3 only the decent food bait caught, despite continuing to fish a hi-attract bait on 1 rod. The food bait was fed from day 1, by day 3, that was the only rod catching for the rest of the week. 

Brackens pool, on Nazeing, the food bait out caught every other angler on the lake. In one season I had 45 fish, some 20 fish more than anyone else. That person caught most of his fish when I gave him some of my bait, and what it was. He then stocked up on it and between us we baited the lake. 

Same bait as at Thwaite! 

That is again proving a better bait works over cack baits. 

 

   On 06/09/2021 at 15:27,  Carpbell_ll said: 

 

Can I ask who wrote this garbage? I've not heard professional or scientific people talk like that, " Chow down" Truck across" Chuck in cheap bait" "Flashing dorsals"  Sorry no scientific writer would write such childish rubbish, I don't care who he is?

Let me give you something a little more professional like this? 

 
 

Common carp - Nutritional requirements

Nutrient requirements of common carp were fairly well researched and established (Table 4.1, Table 4.2, Table 4.3 and Table 4.4).

Protein requirements

The daily requirement of common carp for protein is about 1 g/kg body weight for maintenance and 12 g/kg body weight for maximum protein retention. The efficiency of nitrogen utilization for growth is highest with a protein intake of 7 to 8 g/kg body weight/day. Crude protein levels ranging from 30 to 38 percent appear to satisfy the fish optimally. This level has been determined by using semi-purified diets containing a single high-quality protein source (casein, whole-egg protein or fishmeal). When the diet contains sufficient digestible energy, the optimal protein level can be effectively kept at 30–35 percent (Watanabe, 1982). 

The quantitative requirement for amino acids has been determined by several studies and is shown in Table 4.1.There are some minor differences in the requirement for individual amino acids, depending on the growth stage. The lysine requirement at the fingerling stage is 2.25 percent of the diet (6 percent protein) and decreases to 1.75 percent (5.4 percent) at the fingerling stage, whereas the methionine requirement does not change. As has been recognized in other fish species, cystine and tyrosine can spare or replace certain portions of dietary methionine and phenylalanine, respectively (Takeuchi, Satoh and Kiron, 2002). It remains questionable whether carp requires dietary taurine supplements. Ogino (1980) reported that the amino acid requirements could be estimated from data on the amino acid profile of the whole-body and daily body protein deposition.

Data shown in Table 4.2 are based on the assumption that fish consuming a diet containing 35 percent protein with 80 percent protein digestibility and fed daily at a level of 3 percent of the body weight deposits 0.58 g of protein per 100 g of body weight daily. However, in this approximation of deposition rate, metabolic pathways of amino acids that do not lead to protein synthesis are not accounted. The absorption of individual amino acids differs greatly, depending on the protein source and time after feeding (Dabrowski, 1983, 1986). Although the absorption rate is a useful tool for describing metabolic amino acid requirements, further studies are needed in this area. 

Dietary lipids requirements

As an omnivorous fish, common carp can effectively utilize both lipids and carbohydrates as dietary energy sources. The enrichment of the digestible energy content from 13 to 15 MJ/kg diet by addition of lipid at levels of 5–15 percent to diets did not result in higher growth rate or improved net protein utilization (Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino, 1979a). Increasing dietary lipid seems to increase its body deposition. From the essential fatty acids, common carp requires both n-6 and n-3 fatty acids. Supply of 1 percent of each of these fatty acids leads to best growth and feed efficiency in juvenile common carp (Takeuchi and Watanabe, 1977). Phospholipids (PL) have numerous roles in larval feeding, so they have to be supplied when common carp larvae are fed on artificial diets instead of PL-rich live food. Radunzneto, Corraze and Charlon (1994) found that during the first two weeks, dietary PL supply seemed to be more critical for early larval survival and growth than a supply of n-3 fatty acids from cod liver oil.

Dietary carbohydrate requirements

Studies on carbohydrate utilization in common carp have shown that the amylase activity in the digestive tract and the digestibility of starch in fish are generally lower than those of terrestrial animals. Common carp, being omnivorous, has an intestinal activity of amylase that is higher than in carnivorous fish. It was found that the ratio of intestinal length to body length in carp is 1.8–2, i.e. four times greater than that of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) and Japanese eel (Anguilla japonica). This accounts for the better utilization of carbohydrates by common carp. Murai, Akiyama and Nose (1983) investigated the effects of various dietary carbohydrates and the frequency of feeding on feed utilization of common carp. While the starch diet produced the highest weight gain and feed efficiency at two daily feedings, glucose and maltose were as efficiently utilized as starch when fed at least four times daily. This indicates that there is a drop in the absorption efficiency of glucose and maltose when large amounts are fed at a time. Other investigators found that common carp used carbohydrate effectively as an energy source. Later, Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino (1979b) also confirmed the dietary value of carbohydrates. The optimum range of dietary carbohydrate may be considered to be 30–40 percent for common carp, as proved by many studies in this field.

Vitamin requirements

The qualitative and quantitative vitamin requirements of carp are also well investigated (Table 4.3). The dietary requirements for folic acid and vitamins B12, D and K have not been determined, but it is supposed that some of these vitamins can be synthesized by the intestinal microflora in common carp, as in other freshwater fish (Lovell and Limsuwan, 1982; Hepher, 1988). The vitamin requirements of common carp are affected by various factors, such as size of fish, water temperature and diet composition. For example, fingerling or adult common carp do not require vitamin C because they can synthesize ascorbic acid from D-glucose. The vitamin E requirement may increase corresponding to the level of polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet. As extrusion techniques to make floating feeds become more popular, it seems certain that vitamins may be destroyed during feed manufacture and storage. Hence, the supplemental levels of vitamins in fish diets are always two to five times higher than the requirement levels.

Mineral requirements

Mineral requirements are summarized in Table 4.3. Common carp requires cobalt, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus and zinc. Since common carp lacks an acid-secreting stomach essential for digesting and solubilizing various compounds containing both calcium and phosphorus, the availability of phosphorus depends on the water solubility. Phosphorus from tricalcium phosphate or fishmeal (FM) is less available than that from the more soluble mono- and dicalcium phosphates. Supplementation of monobasic phosphate to FM-based diets resulted in an increase in growth response of common carp (Takeuchi, Satoh and Kiron, 2002). 

It was also found that exogenous supply of copper, manganese, magnesium and zinc is necessary for carp diets. Tricalcium phosphate may inhibit the availability of trace elements, such as zinc and manganese, although to a much lesser extent than in rainbow trout (Satoh et al., 1989). Dabrowska, Meyer-Burgdorff and Gunther (1991) found a significant interaction between magnesium supply and protein level of feed when feeding young carp with diets containing graded levels of magnesium and protein. A magnesium level of 0.6 g/kg was required to elevate plasma and bone magnesium content and to reduce clinical signs of hypercalcinosis, but a further increase of dietary magnesium up to 3.2 g/kg did not affect fish growth. In magnesium-deficient fish, a considerable amount of magnesium was absorbed via extra-oral routes; however, this way of meeting the need for magnesium is inadequate in fast-growing fish. These non-oral routes of mineral uptake may be important, especially in pond conditions. In a study on the interaction between zinc deficiency and lipid intake, Taneja and Arya (1994) observed that the malabsorption of nutrients was linked to the deposition of lipid in the intestine.

Energy requirements

The energy requirements of carp are much less investigated than other aspects of nutrition. As described in other teleosts, both fasting metabolic rates and maintenance energy requirements are affected by water temperature. The resting metabolic rates at temperatures below 17 °C are quite low. A linear relationship between nitrogen (N) intake and heat increment in feeding was also proposed, with a value of around 40 kJ/g N intake (Chakraborti, Ross and Ross, 1992; Kaushik, 1995). 

Protein and lipid requirements are related to digestible energy. The optimum range of the digestible energy/protein ratio for maximum growth was 97–116 when based on the measured digestible energy (Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino, 1979b). Ohta and Watanabe (1996) provided a dietary energy budget for carp fed a practical diet comprised of 25 percent FM, 4 percent meat meal, 10 percent soybean meal and 8 percent maize-gluten meal as the main protein sources. Gross energy intake (100 percent) was partitioned as follows (Ohta and Watanabe, 1996):

  • 29.9 percent lost as faecal energy; 
  • 1.5 percent as non-faecal energy;
  • 31.9 percent as heat increment; and
  • 36. 7 percent as net energy (including 12.6 percent for maintenance and activity and 24.1 percent as productive energy). 

It was also reported in the same study that the digestible energy requirements for maximum growth were 285, 548 and 721 kJ/kg body weight/day (at feeding rates of 1.83, 3.60 and 5.17 percent of body weight/day, respectively).

I can add the tables if required, but they will need to be read with the above content Salokcinnodrog? Its also worth noting some of the data I quote is little dated now. 

R.B. BSc e.f. F.P.C dip. 

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2 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

 

   On 06/09/2021 at 15:27,  Carpbell_ll said: 

 

Can I ask who wrote this garbage? I've not heard professional or scientific people talk like that, " Chow down" Truck across" Chuck in cheap bait" "Flashing dorsals"  Sorry no scientific writer would write such childish rubbish, I don't care who he is?

Let me give you something a little more professional like this? 

 
 

Common carp - Nutritional requirements

Nutrient requirements of common carp were fairly well researched and established (Table 4.1, Table 4.2, Table 4.3 and Table 4.4).

Protein requirements

The daily requirement of common carp for protein is about 1 g/kg body weight for maintenance and 12 g/kg body weight for maximum protein retention. The efficiency of nitrogen utilization for growth is highest with a protein intake of 7 to 8 g/kg body weight/day. Crude protein levels ranging from 30 to 38 percent appear to satisfy the fish optimally. This level has been determined by using semi-purified diets containing a single high-quality protein source (casein, whole-egg protein or fishmeal). When the diet contains sufficient digestible energy, the optimal protein level can be effectively kept at 30–35 percent (Watanabe, 1982). 

The quantitative requirement for amino acids has been determined by several studies and is shown in Table 4.1.There are some minor differences in the requirement for individual amino acids, depending on the growth stage. The lysine requirement at the fingerling stage is 2.25 percent of the diet (6 percent protein) and decreases to 1.75 percent (5.4 percent) at the fingerling stage, whereas the methionine requirement does not change. As has been recognized in other fish species, cystine and tyrosine can spare or replace certain portions of dietary methionine and phenylalanine, respectively (Takeuchi, Satoh and Kiron, 2002). It remains questionable whether carp requires dietary taurine supplements. Ogino (1980) reported that the amino acid requirements could be estimated from data on the amino acid profile of the whole-body and daily body protein deposition.

Data shown in Table 4.2 are based on the assumption that fish consuming a diet containing 35 percent protein with 80 percent protein digestibility and fed daily at a level of 3 percent of the body weight deposits 0.58 g of protein per 100 g of body weight daily. However, in this approximation of deposition rate, metabolic pathways of amino acids that do not lead to protein synthesis are not accounted. The absorption of individual amino acids differs greatly, depending on the protein source and time after feeding (Dabrowski, 1983, 1986). Although the absorption rate is a useful tool for describing metabolic amino acid requirements, further studies are needed in this area. 

Dietary lipids requirements

As an omnivorous fish, common carp can effectively utilize both lipids and carbohydrates as dietary energy sources. The enrichment of the digestible energy content from 13 to 15 MJ/kg diet by addition of lipid at levels of 5–15 percent to diets did not result in higher growth rate or improved net protein utilization (Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino, 1979a). Increasing dietary lipid seems to increase its body deposition. From the essential fatty acids, common carp requires both n-6 and n-3 fatty acids. Supply of 1 percent of each of these fatty acids leads to best growth and feed efficiency in juvenile common carp (Takeuchi and Watanabe, 1977). Phospholipids (PL) have numerous roles in larval feeding, so they have to be supplied when common carp larvae are fed on artificial diets instead of PL-rich live food. Radunzneto, Corraze and Charlon (1994) found that during the first two weeks, dietary PL supply seemed to be more critical for early larval survival and growth than a supply of n-3 fatty acids from cod liver oil.

Dietary carbohydrate requirements

Studies on carbohydrate utilization in common carp have shown that the amylase activity in the digestive tract and the digestibility of starch in fish are generally lower than those of terrestrial animals. Common carp, being omnivorous, has an intestinal activity of amylase that is higher than in carnivorous fish. It was found that the ratio of intestinal length to body length in carp is 1.8–2, i.e. four times greater than that of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) and Japanese eel (Anguilla japonica). This accounts for the better utilization of carbohydrates by common carp. Murai, Akiyama and Nose (1983) investigated the effects of various dietary carbohydrates and the frequency of feeding on feed utilization of common carp. While the starch diet produced the highest weight gain and feed efficiency at two daily feedings, glucose and maltose were as efficiently utilized as starch when fed at least four times daily. This indicates that there is a drop in the absorption efficiency of glucose and maltose when large amounts are fed at a time. Other investigators found that common carp used carbohydrate effectively as an energy source. Later, Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino (1979b) also confirmed the dietary value of carbohydrates. The optimum range of dietary carbohydrate may be considered to be 30–40 percent for common carp, as proved by many studies in this field.

Vitamin requirements

The qualitative and quantitative vitamin requirements of carp are also well investigated (Table 4.3). The dietary requirements for folic acid and vitamins B12, D and K have not been determined, but it is supposed that some of these vitamins can be synthesized by the intestinal microflora in common carp, as in other freshwater fish (Lovell and Limsuwan, 1982; Hepher, 1988). The vitamin requirements of common carp are affected by various factors, such as size of fish, water temperature and diet composition. For example, fingerling or adult common carp do not require vitamin C because they can synthesize ascorbic acid from D-glucose. The vitamin E requirement may increase corresponding to the level of polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet. As extrusion techniques to make floating feeds become more popular, it seems certain that vitamins may be destroyed during feed manufacture and storage. Hence, the supplemental levels of vitamins in fish diets are always two to five times higher than the requirement levels.

Mineral requirements

Mineral requirements are summarized in Table 4.3. Common carp requires cobalt, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus and zinc. Since common carp lacks an acid-secreting stomach essential for digesting and solubilizing various compounds containing both calcium and phosphorus, the availability of phosphorus depends on the water solubility. Phosphorus from tricalcium phosphate or fishmeal (FM) is less available than that from the more soluble mono- and dicalcium phosphates. Supplementation of monobasic phosphate to FM-based diets resulted in an increase in growth response of common carp (Takeuchi, Satoh and Kiron, 2002). 

It was also found that exogenous supply of copper, manganese, magnesium and zinc is necessary for carp diets. Tricalcium phosphate may inhibit the availability of trace elements, such as zinc and manganese, although to a much lesser extent than in rainbow trout (Satoh et al., 1989). Dabrowska, Meyer-Burgdorff and Gunther (1991) found a significant interaction between magnesium supply and protein level of feed when feeding young carp with diets containing graded levels of magnesium and protein. A magnesium level of 0.6 g/kg was required to elevate plasma and bone magnesium content and to reduce clinical signs of hypercalcinosis, but a further increase of dietary magnesium up to 3.2 g/kg did not affect fish growth. In magnesium-deficient fish, a considerable amount of magnesium was absorbed via extra-oral routes; however, this way of meeting the need for magnesium is inadequate in fast-growing fish. These non-oral routes of mineral uptake may be important, especially in pond conditions. In a study on the interaction between zinc deficiency and lipid intake, Taneja and Arya (1994) observed that the malabsorption of nutrients was linked to the deposition of lipid in the intestine.

Energy requirements

The energy requirements of carp are much less investigated than other aspects of nutrition. As described in other teleosts, both fasting metabolic rates and maintenance energy requirements are affected by water temperature. The resting metabolic rates at temperatures below 17 °C are quite low. A linear relationship between nitrogen (N) intake and heat increment in feeding was also proposed, with a value of around 40 kJ/g N intake (Chakraborti, Ross and Ross, 1992; Kaushik, 1995). 

Protein and lipid requirements are related to digestible energy. The optimum range of the digestible energy/protein ratio for maximum growth was 97–116 when based on the measured digestible energy (Takeuchi, Watanabe and Ogino, 1979b). Ohta and Watanabe (1996) provided a dietary energy budget for carp fed a practical diet comprised of 25 percent FM, 4 percent meat meal, 10 percent soybean meal and 8 percent maize-gluten meal as the main protein sources. Gross energy intake (100 percent) was partitioned as follows (Ohta and Watanabe, 1996):

  • 29.9 percent lost as faecal energy; 
  • 1.5 percent as non-faecal energy;
  • 31.9 percent as heat increment; and
  • 36. 7 percent as net energy (including 12.6 percent for maintenance and activity and 24.1 percent as productive energy). 

It was also reported in the same study that the digestible energy requirements for maximum growth were 285, 548 and 721 kJ/kg body weight/day (at feeding rates of 1.83, 3.60 and 5.17 percent of body weight/day, respectively).

I can add the tables if required, but they will need to be read with the above content Salokcinnodrog? Its also worth noting some of the data I quote is little dated now. 

R.B. BSc e.f. F.P.C dip. 

Ha ha garbage? nope just an explanation in my own vernacular, i guarantee nobody will read your copy paste, condense it down to your own every language use, or are you not able to?

 

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3 minutes ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Ha ha garbage? nope just an explanation in my own vernacular, i guarantee nobody will read your copy paste, condense it down to your own every language use, or are you not able to?

 

Why, I understand it don't you? If you want to make a claim about almost anything, you have to prove it with scientific data. Other wise it's just an opinion, not fact? If you struggle to understand my writing, just ask me, and I will help you? Its NOT rocket science, I've studied much harder data at University taking a degree?

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On 07/09/2021 at 13:26, Dicky123 said:

We'll think about this, I've fished all my life, three days a week. I don't put myself up as an expert, and answer almost every question on carp forums. For a person that fishes so little, I wonder how you get the experience to offer such advice all the time on a wide range of topic and have an opinion on such a space amount of fishing. Who's conning who?😇  I'm genuinely please you have such a good home-life far too many people have relationship problem through a total obsession with our sport, its sad to see so much gear on E-Bay that someone paid a fortune for being sold for salt?  You quote aminos and proteins as if you know all about them, but do you REALLY, or is it what the carp industry and all those EXPERTS have said in conversation you're simply copying maybe? Could you write a scientific paper on them for an audience? Sorry you feel that way about me, but I'm sick to death with frauds, and people that put themselves up as expects, but don't have the lineage to offer it. Yonny, maybe we can have some accord on this then, the average carp angler has a massive ego that hates to be challenged, if they say something against the "status quo" as I'm doing now, all you get is derision. It's clear you have never attended a proper debating platform, i'ts proper to be polite, but you can disagree and remain respectful of others. However the people you debate with must have some credibility in the first place? And yes, your first statement is right, it's important to keep to the facts (terms of reference) of the debate and not go off on a tangent. Its clear even though I've stated it several time, you still don't understand what I'm saying sadly, your missing the point I'm trying to make as politely as possible. I ask you to just re-read my objection to the carp bait fallacy. Best regards Richard.

Yonny has caught some amazing fish for a fraud, and I can speak for myself when I say he is a very knowledgeable angler who has helped me out no end, given me lots of good advice in the past and I've asked some right stupid questions, but he always took the time to answer, and for that I am grateful I think you either have a grudge against him or you just enjoy being contrary, I've definately become a better angler from listening to him and others on this site, maybe you could learn something too if you didn't know it all already 👍

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, greekskii said:

Yonny has photo albums full of fish to make you drool. 
 

I’m not reading the entire thread but my guess is another scientist has appeared that doesn’t fully understand that no matter how much science you throw at it, carp fishing isn’t that simple. otherwise all the self proclaimed science gods over the years would be stupidly rich and dominate the bait market…which they don’t at all. 

I’ve watched carp eat sweetcorn over trout pellet…one is significantly better on paper… maybe the scientists can tell us why that happened. 
 

each to their own, don’t force it on anyone though, after all 90% of carp anglers go on experience and observations. No point telling people that have experienced the total opposite as you believe that they are wrong or whatever. Makes you look a fool

I had to skim read it, some of it was hurting my eyes 😳

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1 hour ago, Dicky123 said:

Why, I understand it don't you? If you want to make a claim about almost anything, you have to prove it with scientific data. Other wise it's just an opinion, not fact? If you struggle to understand my writing, just ask me, and I will help you? Its NOT rocket science, I've studied much harder data at University taking a degree?

It's not your writing. just hope you didn't C&P you way through uni, the only writing of your own is just subjective piffle presented as fact and backed up by an unwavering ego. 

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2 hours ago, Dicky123 said:

Can I ask who wrote this garbage? I've not heard professional or scientific people talk like that, " Chow down" Truck across" Chuck in cheap bait" "Flashing dorsals"  Sorry no scientific writer would write such childish rubbish, I don't care who he is?

You're possibly the rudest chap I've ever seen on here.

Carpbell wasn't trying to be write from a scientific perspective. He was writing from an anglers perspective i.e telling you about observations he's made on the bank.

And your response..... copying/pasting the very first thing (🤣) that comes up on Google when you enter anything about the nutritional requirements of carp... is absolutely laughable. Made me chuckle. You call that scientific writing? A 4 year old can copy/paste from Google.

So to invite you to dig your hole deeper, I'd like you to tell us how your copy/pasted passage about the nutritional requirements of carp supports your claims that a rubbish bait will catch as much as a decent one?

 

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Again Yonni, thats not what I've claimed is it, or what I've ever said is it? Problem is when you're uneducated or close minded or have never used critical thinking in your work life/education, you find it difficult to converse with people that have, I repeat this is why you have not understood exactly what I've said.  It was you in your first post that took a swipe at me, remember so don't be surprised when I defend myself. You kept telling me I was re-stating the terms of my reference and still you don't understand exactly what I'm saying. I'm not going to repeat it again. I apologise without reservation if I've offended you, it was not my purpose, or intention. The point about my writing is I do understand such papers, and that gives me much more information than a person that only has anecdotal evidence. I'm quite comfortable to leave it and you can have the last word, however unless people challenge you on your bias you will never get any further in understanding anything. It's clear you're not use to people challenging you at all, thats really sad and if you do ever get into a position of trust, or higher education, you will have to accept it as normal. Once again, I'm not looking for friends or to have buddies that take my side regardless, I'm an adult and can argue my own thoughts and views. But once again if I've upset you just by asking questions, (I've never been rude or gotten angry, thats just being insulting! and a known tactic for deflecting issues you cannot answer? ) I do apologise. RB. Please have the last word I'm finished now. 😀

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3 hours ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Ha ha garbage? nope just an explanation in my own vernacular, i guarantee nobody will read your copy paste, condense it down to your own every language use, or are you not able to?

 

I just ignored it, couldn't be bothered to read it. If I want to research something I do my own work and put it into my own words then reference it. 

 

Gave up on trying to explain something that I have used my own experiences on numbers of waters, he ain't listening and now just coming up with twaddle. 

2 hours ago, greekskii said:

I’ve watched carp eat sweetcorn over trout pellet…one is significantly better on paper… maybe the scientists can tell us why that happened.

Sweetcorn is high in lysine, a feeding trigger amino acid, it is a decent bait and food, albeit the shell comes out as it went in, but the kernel can be digested. 

 

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3 hours ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Ha ha garbage? nope just an explanation in my own vernacular, i guarantee nobody will read your copy paste, condense it down to your own every language use, or are you not able to?

 

I just ignored it, couldn't be bothered to read it. If I want to research something I do my own work and put it into my own words then reference it. 

 

Gave up on trying to explain something that I have used my own experiences on numbers of waters, he ain't listening and now just coming up with twaddle. 

2 hours ago, greekskii said:

I’ve watched carp eat sweetcorn over trout pellet…one is significantly better on paper… maybe the scientists can tell us why that happened.

Sweetcorn is high in lysine, a feeding trigger amino acid, it is a decent bait and food, albeit the shell comes out as it went in, but the kernel can be digested. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

It was you in your first post that took a swipe at me

Where have I taken a swipe at you?

My first post on this thread was as follows:

I find it very surprising that you've been fishing for carp for 50 years and don't believe decent bait makes any difference. Especially given how much thought you clearly put into the subject.

For me, bait is second only to location. It is nothing short of critical imo.

I have commended your thinking and merely expressed surprise at your conclusion.

9 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

I've never been rude

Are you for real?🤣🤣🤣

I'm not bothered about the "last word" mate so fill your boots.

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4 hours ago, Dicky123 said:

Again Yonni, thats not what I've claimed is it, or what I've ever said is it? Problem is when you're uneducated or close minded or have never used critical thinking in your work life/education, you find it difficult to converse with people that have, I repeat this is why you have not understood exactly what I've said.  It was you in your first post that took a swipe at me, remember so don't be surprised when I defend myself. You kept telling me I was re-stating the terms of my reference and still you don't understand exactly what I'm saying. I'm not going to repeat it again. I apologise without reservation if I've offended you, it was not my purpose, or intention. The point about my writing is I do understand such papers, and that gives me much more information than a person that only has anecdotal evidence. I'm quite comfortable to leave it and you can have the last word, however unless people challenge you on your bias you will never get any further in understanding anything. It's clear you're not use to people challenging you at all, thats really sad and if you do ever get into a position of trust, or higher education, you will have to accept it as normal. Once again, I'm not looking for friends or to have buddies that take my side regardless, I'm an adult and can argue my own thoughts and views. But once again if I've upset you just by asking questions, (I've never been rude or gotten angry, thats just being insulting! and a known tactic for deflecting issues you cannot answer? ) I do apologise. RB. Please have the last word I'm finished now. 😀

Your still going on about nothing other than how educated you are, now lets see shall we, I deal with phcologists CPNs family court tribunals, I have worked in the emargancey housing department at the local council, that includes dealing with some of the worst wrong uns society produces, my Mrs is a criminal psychologist specialising in forensic psychology, now tell me more about your fine word smithery. 

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32 minutes ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Your still going on about nothing other than how educated you are, now lets see shall we, I deal with phcologists CPNs family court tribunals, I have worked in the emargancey housing department at the local council, that includes dealing with some of the worst wrong uns society produces, my Mrs is a criminal psychologist specialising in forensic psychology, now tell me more about your fine word smithery. 

🙋🏻‍♂️🙋🏻‍♂️ Me next. 
I went to uni to study aquaculture and carried out multiple research studies on feed for skretting and coppens. Plenty of scientific bait stuff over 3 years. 

 

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15 hours ago, Carpbell_ll said:

Your still going on about nothing other than how educated you are, now lets see shall we, I deal with phcologists CPNs family court tribunals, I have worked in the emargancey housing department at the local council, that includes dealing with some of the worst wrong uns society produces, my Mrs is a criminal psychologist specialising in forensic psychology, now tell me more about your fine word smithery. 

As I said to Yonny, this will be my last word Carpbell (really?) Please have the last word, I'm through arguing with you. You want me to think highly of you, but I don't understand why it's important to you to gain my good favour? I would have thought better of you had you been able to spell the simplest of word like "psychiatrist" 😂or even "emergency. " 😂 

That simple print and paste paper simply went over your head, you did not even understand the how "important "a work it was. I gave you an Alphabet to carp nutrition, something you could read,  then follow the references, and sources to gain a working knowledge on carp nutrition, yes, it would take some time and require some work. But no, you didn't even read it, amazing. I can give you an alphabet, but you had to learn to spell and make up a sentence. That knowledge would have allowed you to understand nutrition and more, gain a working knowledge of bait, something you're supposed to be interested in. But you and your friends were too busy trying to knock me and denigrate my words, fine remain ignorant, but don't knock fine writing. The paper is a few years old now, but would have really helped your knowledge, you would have been able to answer questions by others with authority? 

Smithery is a person that works with metal, sorry thats not me?🤣 If you're talking about a wordsmith, then thats not how the word is spelt or used? 

"Arguing with a fool is pointless, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience." Albert Einstein.

"Any fool can know. The point is to understand" Albert Einstein. 

"The strongest man in the world, is he who mostly stands alone." Henrik Ibsen. 

I'm really not interested in prolonging this debate, its pointless and people seem to be getting upset, so let's agree to differ as adults do. Have fun in your fishing, and best wishes to your family. 

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