Boilie price drops, why?

[Dicky123]

38 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

You are ignoring the type of water, and parts of the whole of nutrition. 

I know that Tim Paisley DID fish against other baits at Waveney on his trips there, his bait had to compete against local angler's, some of whom were researching baits (at Lowestoft Fish Research) and holidaymakers. I know that Premier Baits in the 1990's were out fishing other baits on the Darenth complex. 

Savay, Kevin Maddocks, Rod Hutchinson and Andy Little, good baits out fishing other angler's. 

On Earith the bait that Bruce and I had outfished other baits to other angler's, AND hi-vi's and hi-attract that we fished at times to try to provoke a take in colder weather. Other anglers to get takes had to go buy a bag of Trigga, I kid you not. Bruce and my bait was Trigga with a twist... 

This thing about nutrition and tiger nuts (and peanuts); the nuts themselves are addictive to carp, they will eat them to the exclusion of other baits, until death. They contain very little useable nutrition, only that that can be digested off the surface. 

In nutrition, the FIRST requirement is energy, whether that is provided by protein, fat or carbohydrates. YOU need the energy to digest the rest of your food, as do carp. 

Most waters are overstocked, the fish NEED to eat bait to survive, and that is any bait that goes in. There are very few waters now rich enough in natural food to support the fish stocks present in them. 

Baits also work in conjunction with other baits. Particles provide energy, vegetable fats and carbohydrates, higher protein boilies provide protein. 

You have this thing for fishmeal; a very good ingredient, it is high in protein, useable animal protein, providing almost every required amino acid. It is an attractor in its own right, it is why fishmeal boilies work so well. Vegetable, nut (legume) meal even maize meal do not provide as good as useable protein, they are missing a few required amino acids.

There is one non meat protein that contains every essential amino acid, and that is yeast. 

As for Cell, a bird food and coconut base with a yeast background. Ring a bell here? 

 

The amount of protein does not need to be massively high, the days of 45/50% are long gone. As an example, humans need no more than 75grammes of protein a day. 

As anglers a kilo of food source boilies need not provide anymore protein than 300grams, and it is likely that kilo will be shared by more than 1 fish! 

Protein is required for tissue repair and growth. If carp don't get enough protein then they cannot grow to their maximum. There are many waters full of carp no bigger than double figures, simply because: a) there are too many fish, b) they aren't getting enough food to grow. 

Provide a better bait or thin the numbers they will start to grow, unless they have become permanently stunted. 

You said I quote: "I have seen good baits 'dominate' a water, the right bait outproducing every other bait used to the extent of that bait being almost the only one that caught, and it was not particularly heavily baited, around 1kg a week, after an initial 20kg in 2 weeks". I'm sorry but If that's not the daftest thing I'v ever heard, really. You only have to do the maths yourself. Imagine a water of just say 50 carp, you have to be assuming almost every carp eats some bait. Two large 20lb carp can eat a kilo of bait in minutes, the point is to dominate a water, you need so much more bait than you suggest. If only 10/20 fish eat the bait in that time, thats not domination is it? Or are you suggesting that every carp eats 20 baits only each time they find them, then leave the rest for others?   It's just not common sence for a fish to leave food for another carp. A kilo of bait goes no-where in waters with even a few carp, say 30 decent size fish. I fished at Waveney when Hutch was there, and other famous names now long gone, it was my local water at the time, living in Suffolk. Protein baits were at the fore then, but no-one had one better than another as all knew the ingredients. You also mention that "I was ignoring the water type' well thats simple really. The more fish stocked in non rich waters (like commercials), the food content of a boilie matters less, why? Because they cannot remember what they ate yesterday with the huge amount of food going in all the time, and they would eat almost anything because as you say they are over-stocked. In much richer waters they don't need extra, so the needed protein argument is mute. Its in those 50/50 places where boilies really score, but domination with 20 kilo then a kilo a week, is just non-sensible I'd suggest, sorry. You said I quote: "Provide a better bait or thin the numbers they will start to grow, unless they have become permanently stunted" Again I'd dispute you could feed enough, long enough, to make any difference, unless its a sparsely stocked, small, poor quality water.  Reducing fish numbers could work, but you would end up with less fish, who would support that these days, and how much bait would you have to feed, again an unsubstantiated, unrealistic arguement. You seem to be jumping all over the place with your suggestions, and talking about humans and nutrition, carp are not humans, treating their feeding as such is the cause most peoples misunderstanding of bait and carp. I only mentioned humans in the context of not knowing food thats good for you while your eating it, or even after.  Domination is such a strange word really for such a attribute, it means influence and power over something. In all the time I've been fishing I've never known one bait dominate a water to the exclusion of another bait, even Redmire carp in the day took sweetcorn and seed, even the big one. You mention nuts and the low food value, but fish get hooked on small seeds, like hemp, and many pea type baits, one seed bait I did use almost dominated one water I fished, but people still caught on other baits, thats not really domination though is it?  For this reason and as explained above, I don't believe carp can distinguish between on boilie or another based on how it makes them feel later. But its good to debate it and maybe advance one-self?

[salokcinnodrog]

3 hours ago, Dicky123 said:

You said I quote: "I have seen good baits 'dominate' a water, the right bait outproducing every other bait used to the extent of that bait being almost the only one that caught, and it was not particularly heavily baited, around 1kg a week, after an initial 20kg in 2 weeks". I'm sorry but If that's not the daftest thing I'v ever heard, really. You only have to do the maths yourself. Imagine a water of just say 50 carp, you have to be assuming almost every carp eats some bait. Two large 20lb carp can eat a kilo of bait in minutes, the point is to dominate a water, you need so much more bait than you suggest. If only 10/20 fish eat the bait in that time, thats not domination is it? Or are you suggesting that every carp eats 20 baits only each time they find them, then leave the rest for others?   It's just not common sence for a fish to leave food for another carp. A kilo of bait goes no-where in waters with even a few carp, say 30 decent size fish. I fished at Waveney when Hutch was there, and other famous names now long gone, it was my local water at the time, living in Suffolk. Protein baits were at the fore then, but no-one had one better than another as all knew the ingredients. You also mention that "I was ignoring the water type' well thats simple really. The more fish stocked in non rich waters (like commercials), the food content of a boilie matters less, why? Because they cannot remember what they ate yesterday with the huge amount of food going in all the time, and they would eat almost anything because as you say they are over-stocked. In much richer waters they don't need extra, so the needed protein argument is mute. Its in those 50/50 places where boilies really score, but domination with 20 kilo then a kilo a week, is just non-sensible I'd suggest, sorry. You said I quote: "Provide a better bait or thin the numbers they will start to grow, unless they have become permanently stunted" Again I'd dispute you could feed enough, long enough, to make any difference, unless its a sparsely stocked, small, poor quality water.  Reducing fish numbers could work, but you would end up with less fish, who would support that these days, and how much bait would you have to feed, again an unsubstantiated, unrealistic arguement. You seem to be jumping all over the place with your suggestions, and talking about humans and nutrition, carp are not humans, treating their feeding as such is the cause most peoples misunderstanding of bait and carp. I only mentioned humans in the context of not knowing food thats good for you while your eating it, or even after.  Domination is such a strange word really for such a attribute, it means influence and power over something. In all the time I've been fishing I've never known one bait dominate a water to the exclusion of another bait, even Redmire carp in the day took sweetcorn and seed, even the big one. You mention nuts and the low food value, but fish get hooked on small seeds, like hemp, and many pea type baits, one seed bait I did use almost dominated one water I fished, but people still caught on other baits, thats not really domination though is it?  For this reason and as explained above, I don't believe carp can distinguish between on boilie or another based on how it makes them feel later. But its good to debate it and maybe advance one-self?

Sorry mate, stop trying to pick holes; I have seen it and done it on Earith. That amount. No other bait produced, the fish wanted the bait, and would not take other baits other angler's fished. They may have eaten other angler's baits, but were not preoccupied enough to take the hookbait.

They may well have eaten natural food, but if you wanted to catch then the only bait that produced was a version of Trigga. 

Sorry, simples!

Seeds do not produce the addiction of tigers and peanuts. They produce pre-occupation at the time, they may well avoid larger baits while eating them. I have seen carp feed on hemp alone, leaving tares that were fished with them, but sometimes they will pick up other foods. 

As for a fishery, I hate to tell you, I used to run them for a living, so understand the biology and ecology. I understand 'survival over health'. Carp try to survive, in an overstocked water they have NO CHOICE but to eat everything, anglers bait. Survival is their first choice. You really are ignoring that type of water, and even confirming exactly what I said. 

If you have an overstocked water, reduce the biomass of fish, take it down to an acceptable level. If the water can naturally support 800lb of fish then taking it down to 600lb will provide room for them to grow. Commercial waters can't take it down to 'understocked', they need anglers fishing and catching. 

 

 

[Carpbell_ll]

Another way of looking at a good HNV bait is when you take it to a runs water that has a fair number of good doubles like mallard at stanwicks, the better fish will get on a good bait, even on my syndicate, if you put a good bait in the water they will go over and chow down right before your eyes, just come out of nowhere truck across the lake flashing there dorsals and disappear over the bait, sometimes you wont even get a bleep., chuck cheap bait in or should i say retail shelfie as they are not cheap,  and they just wont feed on them in fact due to them resembling a pile of hook baits i think they bolt from them?

[...]

So what would class these days as a GOOD bait?.... Freezer / Shelf life. 

Sticky Krill, Sticky Manilla? 

Mainline Link, Mainline Cell? 

CCMoore Live System? 

[yonny]

1 hour ago, Dicky123 said:

Unless you bait in huge quantities, no one bait will out fish another

I find it very surprising that you've been fishing for carp for 50 years and don't believe decent bait makes any difference. Especially given how much thought you clearly put into the subject.

For me, bait is second only to location. It is nothing short of critical imo.

[yonny]

17 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

Maybe you have just brought into the carp bait con, and are in denial?

Considering you keep referencing the principles of debate you don't half come up with some strange responses mate.

I only use boiled baits for certain times of the year when I believe they're at their most effective. Those are the periods when the carp will choose the aminos they detect with their gustatory and the olfactory senses over other baits such as particles. The best way to offer them that is a top quality fishmeal boilie. Imo.

25 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

Yonny, I seem you spend an extraordinary amount of time on forums my friend, and it makes me wonder how often you actually fish, I'm sure forums are a great source or friendship and plain fun, but nothing beats gong fishing and catching fish. Maybe you fish 7 days a week, I'm sure you will correct me😉.

You'd be right to wonder how often I go fishing. I have a full time job and a wonderful young family at home that are the priority in my life. I normally get a day or two on the bank per month which goes about halfway to satisfying my love of angling. Luckily it's just enough to achieve results and if you read through the catch reports on here you'll see I do OK given my limited time.

33 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

Currently I've moved away from big fish waters I use to frequent like A1 pits, just to catch up on my life and enjoy the actual event of fishing.

A1 Pits is just round the corner from me. A proper circus I'm sure you'll agree. 

Unlike you I do still target big fish waters which as you can imagine given the time I have is a very tall order. "Being quiet, watching the water, location, moving onto fish, getting a good drop, and my own water craft" are simple pre-requisites on such waters. Without them you'd blank all year.

44 minutes ago, Dicky123 said:

What I don't believe is that a carp can tell one for the other, or they can tell its doing them good, and that without huge baiting programmes, they don't choose one over the other as preference.

Each to their own mate. For me the ultimate feeding trigger (in terms of boiled baits) is the key aminos released as the proteins in a well balanced active bait break down. You cannot achieve that with soya and flavouring.

But ultimately I think confidence goes a long way to being successful so if you're happy with the bait you use and you're happy with your results then none of the above matters 👍

P.S. The way you babble on about 'debate' when you clearly really struggle to reply to anyone without sounding condescending and patronizing will not win you any friends Dicky.

 

[Carpbell_ll]

7 hours ago, Highy said:

So what would class these days as a GOOD bait?.... Freezer / Shelf life. 

Sticky Krill, Sticky Manilla? 

Mainline Link, Mainline Cell? 

CCMoore Live System? 

none of them to be honest they are good baits but you can get a lot better for less money, they are made for retail first which means they store well, where as a fresh rolled bait is nice as is, no glugs or powders., i will happily use, baitworks, cov carp baits, whacker catcher, sticky would be a great bait to roll yourself.  

[Carpbell_ll]

talking of baitworks see they have a new one out or new to me, looks good as well, just the kind of bait i was messing with from JB, the shrimp ecton berry is a real nice bait very soft and made to dissolve out food signals as it's a feed bait that needs to be found and ate.  

https://www.baitworks.co.uk/product-categories/creamino-boilies

[...]

1 hour ago, Carpbell_ll said:

talking of baitworks see they have a new one out or new to me, looks good as well, just the kind of bait i was messing with from JB, the shrimp ecton berry is a real nice bait very soft and made to dissolve out food signals as it's a feed bait that needs to be found and ate.  

https://www.baitworks.co.uk/product-categories/creamino-boilies

Yeh, heard this few weeks back, does look interesting. 

[Carpbell_ll]

3 hours ago, Highy said:

Yeh, heard this few weeks back, does look interesting. 

looks real good, baitworks would be my first choice, i used the royal marine before a very high quality bait,  only used once and didn't catch but that's more the lake i was fishing, if i could by it in large bulk and freeze i'd be happy, trying to order a few kilo here and there is not very practical so i try to call in the bait makers themselves,

back to the topic of why bait is being discounted could be a number of things combining, over production based on last year's sales, end of summer stockpile and more people want a better bait, even the mighty Mainline struggles for freezer space in the shops.  Mainline seemed to lose the plot after cell keep trying for something really different to the rest but not really doing much.

[greekskii]

15 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Yonny has caught some amazing fish for a fraud, and I can speak for myself when I say he is a very knowledgeable angler who has helped me out no end, given me lots of good advice in the past and I've asked some right stupid questions, but he always took the time to answer, and for that I am grateful I think you either have a grudge against him or you just enjoy being contrary, I've definately become a better angler from listening to him and others on this site, maybe you could learn something too if you didn't know it all already 👍

 

 

 

Yonny has photo albums full of fish to make you drool. 
 

I’m not reading the entire thread but my guess is another scientist has appeared that doesn’t fully understand that no matter how much science you throw at it, carp fishing isn’t that simple. otherwise all the self proclaimed science gods over the years would be stupidly rich and dominate the bait market…which they don’t at all. 

I’ve watched carp eat sweetcorn over trout pellet…one is significantly better on paper… maybe the scientists can tell us why that happened. 
 

each to their own, don’t force it on anyone though, after all 90% of carp anglers go on experience and observations. No point telling people that have experienced the total opposite as you believe that they are wrong or whatever. Makes you look a fool

[...]

On 01/09/2021 at 18:31, Dicky123 said:

Its all about what you have confidence in

You've basically said it yourself right at the beginning, if it's working stick with it.... If not try something else and ask about what people think about certain Baits (Trial and error)... I started off in Nash Candy Nut, did some fish, since moved to Sticky, got better results, now trying another bait option (Not Boilies) and myself and a mate have caught 21 fish in 2 sessions upto 31lb and that with no offerings around them and no pre-baiting. 

I ain't no Tom Dove or Mark Pitchers but Fishing is mainly a hobby and if everyone had the option we would be on the freshest and best Baits possible, but LIFE has other means and ways, and when we do get out on the bank hopefully we give 110% and try to reap the rewards. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Highy

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, Highy said:

You've basically said it yourself right at the beginning, if it's working stick with it.... If not try something else and ask about what people think about certain Baits (Trial and error)... I started off in Nash Candy Nut, did some fish, since moved to Sticky, got better results, now trying another bait option (Not Boilies) and myself and a mate have caught 21 fish in 2 sessions upto 31lb and that with no offerings around them and no pre-baiting. 

I ain't no Tom Dove or Mark Pitchers but Fishing is mainly a hobby and if everyone had the option we would be on the freshest and best Baits possible, but LIFE has other means and ways, and when we do get out on the bank hopefully we give 110% and try to reap the rewards. 

Totally agree Highy, I just enjoy my short amount of time on the bank, that's enough for me, I do what I can to prepare, yesterday I went raking and baiting 2nd time this week, I am going tomorrow can't blooming wait, just make the most of what time you have and enjoy it, I'll be using a mix of 4 baits I have confidence in tomorrow 😁

[...]

1 minute ago, elmoputney said:

Totally agree Highy, I just enjoy my short amount of time on the bank, that's enough for me, I do what I can to prepare, yesterday I went raking and baiting 2nd time this week, I am going tomorrow can't blooming wait, just make the most of what time you have and enjoy it, I'll be using a mix of 4 baits I have confidence in tomorrow 😁

Saturday Morning me Elmo, for 24hrs, I've also got my Mix ready for 1 rod, then the introduced new bait. 

[elmoputney]

2 minutes ago, Highy said:

Saturday Morning me Elmo, for 24hrs, I've also got my Mix ready for 1 rod, then the introduced new bait. 

It's nice being confident in your bait isn't it 😏

[...]

6 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

It's nice being confident in your bait isn't it 😏

Full confidence 👍

[greekskii]

28 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

Which do you prefer Coppens or skrettings? 

 

Either or. Depends on which pellet you use tbh. Coppens supreme or elite are good. Skretting premium is similar. The Aller Aqua pellets are good too now they are readily available. 
 

edit - salmon fry crumb is an incredible addition to bag mixes 

Edited September 9, 2021 by greekskii

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, greekskii said:

Either or. Depends on which pellet you use tbh. Coppens supreme or elite are good. Skretting premium is similar. The Aller Aqua pellets are good too now they are readily available. 
 

edit - salmon fry crumb is an incredible addition to bag mixes 

Nice one thanks, last ones I bought were Aller aqua halibut ones 17mm bream chokers, they were high protien high oil ones, seem quite high spec 

These were good to deal with very quick delivery postage included 

https://bulkfishpellets.co.uk/collections/aller-aqua-ap

 

 

[buzzbomb]

Any bait manufacturer had to take a hit over the past 18 months, as would their suppliers of ingredients.   It was suggested up-thread that this could be seasonal, but if it's a significant price drop (and sustained) it might be a desperate move to keep their suppliers afloat.  Without the companies producing the ingredients, there is no boilie business, so a strategic sacrifice.  If dropping bait prices brings fishermen back to their product then it's a win.

 

[salokcinnodrog]

Right, back online. 

Sorry, I have removed the argument, insults and the continual taking to a tangent. 

Sadly it does now read slightly skew whiff, but is on track

[Carpbell_ll]

On 09/09/2021 at 18:16, greekskii said:

Either or. Depends on which pellet you use tbh. Coppens supreme or elite are good. Skretting premium is similar. The Aller Aqua pellets are good too now they are readily available. 
 

edit - salmon fry crumb is an incredible addition to bag mixes 

pellets or boiles, why do carp anglers still use large amount of boilies when pellets are just as good and a lot cheaper. don't get me wrong i still use more boilies than pellet.

Another observation through trial and error is leaders previous session i had four fish off the same spot with no leader but i did have to re do my rod due to the line taking a beating, so this time out i used a leader on the same spot fishing just the same as the previous session, but only had one fish, the spot had fish feeding on it the whole time i was there, but what a difference the fish were being a lot more cagey.    

 

[...]

28 minutes ago, Carpbell_ll said:

pellets or boiles, why do carp anglers still use large amount of boilies when pellets are just as good and a lot cheaper. don't get me wrong i still use more boilies than pellet.

Another observation through trial and error is leaders previous session i had four fish off the same spot with no leader but i did have to re do my rod due to the line taking a beating, so this time out i used a leader on the same spot fishing just the same as the previous session, but only had one fish, the spot had fish feeding on it the whole time i was there, but what a difference the fish were being a lot more cagey.    

 

True dat... Lately using 8mm Pellets putting 2 on banded hair rigs, that's what I'm catching on, with a mesh Bags attached. 

I've started to use as little tubing as possible maybe about 6inch inserted into XL Soft tail rubber. 

[elmoputney]

57 minutes ago, Carpbell_ll said:

pellets or boiles, why do carp anglers still use large amount of boilies when pellets are just as good and a lot cheaper. don't get me wrong i still use more boilies than pellet.

Another observation through trial and error is leaders previous session i had four fish off the same spot with no leader but i did have to re do my rod due to the line taking a beating, so this time out i used a leader on the same spot fishing just the same as the previous session, but only had one fish, the spot had fish feeding on it the whole time i was there, but what a difference the fish were being a lot more cagey.    

 

I use a lot of pellet with my boilies, I tend to buy the biggest I can get as I think you get more bang for your buck, I am using 17mm ones now, not only are they great because you can just mix them with boilies and pult the lot out together but they don't break down for 48 hours meaning if you are prebaiting with them they wont just be mush by the time they find them,and they are nuisance resistant, but if you have a ridgemonkey boilie crusher, you can also crush pellets in it making a whole variety of bits which are ideal for bags etc, they are also good for taking on liquids, 

[yonny]

1 hour ago, Carpbell_ll said:

why do carp anglers still use large amount of boilies when pellets are just as good and a lot cheaper.

Different principles imo. Pellets are awesome for attraction but they breakdown so quickly that they cannot elicit the same type of feeding response. They'll get them grubbing around on the spot but they'll not get them moving around picking up baits. I think using both is the best option.

[elmoputney]

18 minutes ago, yonny said:

Different principles imo. Pellets are awesome for attraction but they breakdown so quickly that they cannot elicit the same type of feeding response. They'll get them grubbing around on the spot but they'll not get them moving around picking up baits. I think using both is the best option.

That's another reason I quite like the bigger ones, they don't make a carpet as such so they probably move more between bites and its more like feeding more boilies than smaller pellets