Rig ejection

[salokcinnodrog]

On 3 June 2019 at 10:09, yonny said:

I can guarantee you lads, we get done regularly on ALL rigs 😫

 

On 3 June 2019 at 10:14, snowmanstevo said:

Agreed you only need to look at underwater footage to realise we get lucky only a few times ! 

But as I’ve said I’ve never reeled in with the D moved it’s always been in the set position and I use 4/6 hooks myself Vic

 

On 3 June 2019 at 10:18, snowmanstevo said:

I’m sure I read on here many moons ago that one of the members called it a day after watching the underwater stuff and took up fluff chucking because he couldn’t get his head round how many times we get done.🙄🙄😂😂

Them pesky carp can sometimes be one step ahead 🙄😬😎🎣

I have sat watching carp on various waters pick up and eject goodness knows how many rigs.

I have not yet found a single rig that is totally anti-eject, pop-up, bottom bait, or critically balanced. Pop-up rigs can be taken or ignored, if the pop-up is tested that rig is often totally blown, it just won't catch from the fish that tested it, or sometimes any companion fish in that group.

A blow back rig will behave differently from whether it is a bottom bait or a pop-up; a pop-up will usually reset, where a bottom bait is stuffed. 

The strange thing is that bottom bait rigs can be forcibly ejected and blown out, or just 'fall out', where I have seen, personally, pop-up rigs tend to get blown out more. That may be different for others.

 

Also rigs work differently on different fish, waters, lakebeds, even different areas in a lake.

 

I think it was Danny Fairbrass who said (a fair few years ago, so it is possible his views have changed), that curved shank hooks don't need any tubing as the 'Kurve' itself that stopped the rig being ejected, however after watching my own plain straight knotless knotted curve shank rigs being ejected with ease by a couple of fish (not even big fish) I found that a line aligner does help. Extending the shank length on many hook patterns really improves hook-ups and reduces the chances of a rig being ejected, that is straight shank and curved shank hooks.

 

This extending the hook shank lead to things like The Savay Looney rig, the longshank hook patterns, line aligners, even kickers as longshank Bent hook rigs were banned.

 

 

 

[yonny]

28 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I have not yet found a single rig that is totally anti-eject

Likewise, I agree.

29 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

if the pop-up is tested that rig is often totally blown, it just won't catch from the fish that tested it, or sometimes any companion fish in that group.

Disagree, they're not that smart imo.

[Golden Paws]

We get "done" far more often then we think. I've watched barbel in shallow clear water take every grain of sweetcorn - except for one! I've also watched them blow it out with extreme force, the corn ends up further up the river than the 3 foot trace I was using. I was sight fishing so the long trace was purely to keep the end tackle as far away as possible. All you can do is play the percentage game. Ensure your hook is sharp, the rig is good, the line is out of the way and you don't spook them.

A friend told me a story of how he watched 2 carp come into a swim and clocked the 22 boilies, 20 freebies and 2 with hooks. One fish went to take the baited hook twice and the other carp "rammed" it sideways on. They left 5 minutes later with the 2 baits left and my mate went home straight away as he couldn't comprehend what he'd just witnessed.

[salokcinnodrog]

2 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Pop-up rigs can be taken or ignored, if the pop-up is tested that rig is often totally blown, it just won't catch from the fish that tested it, or sometimes any companion fish in that group.

 

2 hours ago, yonny said:

Likewise, I agree.

Disagree, they're not that smart imo.

I should have said at that particular time, or cast. I have watched fish totally avoid pop-ups (and bottom baits), and until that pop-up is recast or moved it is left alone. With bottom baits leaving them in place can work, as much as 48hours. 

Again I have watched carp, even over washed out baits, ignore the bait and hookbait, until it had been in the water for a few days. 

47 minutes ago, Golden Paws said:

We get "done" far more often then we think. I've watched barbel in shallow clear water take every grain of sweetcorn - except for one! I've also watched them blow it out with extreme force, the corn ends up further up the river than the 3 foot trace I was using. I was sight fishing so the long trace was purely to keep the end tackle as far away as possible. All you can do is play the percentage game. Ensure your hook is sharp, the rig is good, the line is out of the way and you don't spook them.

A friend told me a story of how he watched 2 carp come into a swim and clocked the 22 boilies, 20 freebies and 2 with hooks. One fish went to take the baited hook twice and the other carp "rammed" it sideways on. They left 5 minutes later with the 2 baits left and my mate went home straight away as he couldn't comprehend what he'd just witnessed.

On Taverham Mills I watched a couple of carp take every single grain of sweetcorn, except the hookbait.

We got to the stage that even there it could take the carp two days to move onto boilie or particle baited areas; a complete transformation from times when just getting a few boilies onto the spot would produce every night.

[emmcee]

I've watched a fair few of the underwater DVD's from korda and you obviously see that they were being "done" quite a lot. Flicking through YouTube I found a video recently with the Fox boys doing an underwater bit on wraysbury.  They were using the 360 rig. In the piece that I saw they had one pick up and it resulted in a fish on the bank. Gave me food for thought as I used to use that rig a lot before it was banned on one of my lakes. Might be trying it again on a lake near me soon Haha. 

[yonny]

11 hours ago, emmcee said:

underwater DVD's from korda

No matter what anyone thinks of Korda, those vids were a revelation.

I don't think any of us realised just how frequently we get done. Fact is we're likely getting stitched up numerous times before we get a take. It was these vids that taught us just how important it is to have a rig that can reset itself. That alone makes watching the vids invaluable imo.

[Golden Paws]

That's why I favour Combi's, you get the stiffness and resetting properties of the flouro but then have the final half inch that is (relatively) natural. I use wafters normally but presoaked in a flavour and that tends to over weight them so insert a cork plug in them so they are critically balanced. I prefer them to just lift the hook so the point is on the bottom and the gape is vertical.

[bluelabel]

You have to wonder what makes fish spook off a baited hook... is it a sight thing, or a detection of magnetic field...?

 having watched carp spook off my rigs in the margins its hard to say, but when you use multiple metal components in rigs (and often different metals) I think the latter may be true to a degree...

my young apprentice is a dedicated fan of the Ronnie and we all know it works, but I think the Multi has almost the same presentation without the attendant mix of metals...

I think I shall experiment with the multi and the Ronnie side by side and see if one outscores the other....

I will even go as far as using plasticine as the weight, so the only metal content on the multi is the hook and therefore offers no scope to create a magnetic field...

Edited June 26, 2020 by bluelabel

[emmcee]

50 minutes ago, yonny said:

No matter what anyone thinks of Korda, those vids were a revelation.

I don't think any of us realised just how frequently we get done. Fact is we're likely getting stitched up numerous times before we get a take. It was these vids that taught us just how important it is to have a rig that can reset itself. That alone makes watching the vids invaluable imo.

Absolutely spot on mate. 

[salokcinnodrog]

14 minutes ago, yonny said:

No matter what anyone thinks of Korda, those vids were a revelation.

I don't think any of us realised just how frequently we get done. Fact is we're likely getting stitched up numerous times before we get a take. It was these vids that taught us just how important it is to have a rig that can reset itself. That alone makes watching the vids invaluable imo.

@yonny, 

I think that a few anglers did know that they were getting done; it was the reason for development of rigs, obviously from the hair rig, sliding hair, D-rig even tubing on the hook and on. I remember reading articles or chapters by Ken Townley, Kevin Nash, Rob Maylin, and obviously Rod Hutchinson on watching rigs being ejected.

I think the Korda DVD's put it to every angler rather than just the few who got above the rigs in the water and were able to watch the fish.

 

Years ago on here in a thread I made the point, I don't think about rig mechanics, maybe I automatically assess and correct what is going wrong from my own observations. 

I do think that pop-up rigs behave very differently to bottom bait rigs. Many or even most pop-up rigs automatically reset, bottom bait rigs may not.

 

The other thing at the moment, I have not been using a hair made from the continuation of the knotless knot on most waters. Most of my rigs have come on to having a sliding ring on the hook shank. I believe it was Rob Maylin who coined the term sliding or revolving rigs, that hair on the rig ring is exactly that.

The reasons behind it:

I can change the hair length to suit the fishing.

I can fish bottom or snowman baits on the same rig.

The sliding ring does reset.

The sliding ring does not immediately give a 'fixed' pivot point. The fraction of the second extra time in the mouth as the ring slides up the shank before the baits pivot back on blowing. It may or may not be relevant, strangely I have not watched it in the water😖

What I do know is that from the first time I used it in 2008 on Brackens Pool, Nazeing, it produced fish, more fish to my rods than many who fished more time than I did. I wouldn't like to claim it was all rig as I was fishing very differently to most other anglers, using a fair amount of boilies when most were just fishing over a few.

 

 

 

[emmcee]

54 minutes ago, yonny said:

No matter what anyone thinks of Korda, those vids were a revelation.

I don't think any of us realised just how frequently we get done. Fact is we're likely getting stitched up numerous times before we get a take. It was these vids that taught us just how important it is to have a rig that can reset itself. That alone makes watching the vids invaluable imo.

This is also where having an established bait that the carp want can give you a massive edge and creating a feeding area/ situation that brings numbers of fish to your spot. The more your hookbait is picked up the more chance of a take naturally. 

[yonny]

42 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

You have to wonder what makes fish spook off a baited hook... is it a sight thing, or a detection of magnetic field...?

 having watched carp spook off my rigs in the margins its hard to say, but when you use multiple metal components in rigs (and often different metals) I think the latter may be true to a degree...

I just do not believe that for one second. The ronnie/spinner is imo right up there as one of the most effective rigs of all time. It's deadly. I've caught LOADS of carp on it.

Imo you can see very clearly in the Korda vids why they spook and that is because they know something is different, simple as that. It could be the way the hookbait behaves or it could be that they can see some part of the rig (they're not smart enough to know what a hook or a lead is but they can tell something is different). But they are just too inquisitive to ignore it imo. As long as the rig resets and there is food about they will normally take it eventually imo.

It's like when we fish on the surface. Unless you have them troughing like pigs you see them clock the hookbait all the time. They look at it, back off, come back, look at it, back off..... then on the fourth or fifth lap they take it. They just can't help it.

14 minutes ago, emmcee said:

This is also where having an established bait that the carp want can give you a massive edge and creating a feeding area/ situation that brings numbers of fish to your spot. The more your hookbait is picked up the more chance of a take naturally. 

Totally agree. Creating that feeding situation is 100 times more important that than the hookbait or the rig imo. If you have any half decent rig that can reset itself, with any half decent hookbait on, it'll work if you can create that feeding situation.

Edited June 26, 2020 by yonny

[bluelabel]

So how do you explain fish backing off hookbaits... its been seen time and time again... there must be an explanation for it...?

[elmoputney]

The elliot gray pop up theory sticks with me from those tbh where his rig caught the box common, I still think pop ups will probably catch bigger fish overall, and on the whole will be presented correctly  more often, after that and Pete Regan just chucking them in weed, all I can say is I'm not going to be as fussy where my rigs land tomorrow, I'm geared up to fish anywhere and over a spread of bait I have been liquid loading(not just glugging😁) for 3 days, creating the feeding situation and getting them grazing the area will be the most important thing then hopefully they will slip up, I am keen to try the stiff hinge rig with the doubled mouth trap, I am hoping that may prove tricky to eject, although one rod is going on the trig hammer ronnie with d rig kicker I made last night, 

[yonny]

9 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

So how do you explain fish backing off hookbaits... its been seen time and time again... there must be an explanation for it...?

I just answered that lol:

52 minutes ago, yonny said:

Imo you can see very clearly in the Korda vids why they spook and that is because they know something is different, simple as that. It could be the way the hookbait behaves or it could be that they can see some part of the rig (they're not smart enough to know what a hook or a lead is but they can tell something is different)

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by yonny

[yonny]

6 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I still think pop ups will probably catch bigger fish overall

Me too.

I have a close pal that I fished with on 3 different waters over a 5 year period. I always fish pop ups. He always fishes bottom baits in bags. My average was MUCH bigger, every year, on every water. Not conclusive, but a very good indication.

[carpepecheur]

I rarely fish boilies on the hair for reasons already mentioned above but if I did, I would probably make a small modification as shown in the following diagram. A short length of slightly stiff mono is whipped to the shank of the hook using the No Knot used to tie the hair.

When the carp sucks up the bait, it pulls the line straight, making it easier to pass into the carp’s mouth – as shown in first part of diagram.

The second the carp stops sucking, the line slackens and takes up the position in the second diagram. The stiff mono catches one side of the carp’s mouth and pushes the hook into the other side of the carp’s mouth.

Just an idea?

 

[yonny]

34 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

The Savay lads used to do this back in the 80s. There were several version including one with multiple "whiskers". 

[carpepecheur]

Yes I did wonder about using two diverging whiskers. Any idea why this is no used more? It is such a cheap and easy mod if it works.

[yonny]

Just now, carpepecheur said:

Any idea why this is no used more?

No idea mate.

Personally I just don't think it needs to be there. Any half decent rig that resets itself will do the job if the feeding situation is fostered effectively imo.

[bluelabel]

2 hours ago, yonny said:

Imo you can see very clearly in the Korda vids why they spook and that is because they know something is different, simple as that. It could be the way the hookbait behaves or it could be that they can see some part of the rig (they're not smart enough to know what a hook or a lead is but they can tell something is different).

this is my point... I 'm wondering if the mix of metals in rig components is causing a low level (either) magnetic or electrical field that the fish can detect, we all know that some fish can detect electrical muscle impulses of fish hiding in sand in the sea... who's to say freshwater fish cannot detect the same fields from metal mixes in rig components... as you said yourself, "they know something is different"  you said that yourself, but do you know what they are spooking at... really...??? 

 

this is the point I'm trying to get across

[bluelabel]

18 minutes ago, yonny said:

The Savay lads used to do this back in the 80s. There were several version including one with multiple "whiskers". 

Someone posted a few pics of the Anchor rig a while ago, dunno if it was on here or another site, but basically it had a stiff mono through the shrink tube kicker  so the rig looked like a mini anchor

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by bluelabel

[carpepecheur]

58 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

this is my point... I 'm wondering if the mix of metals in rig components is causing a low level (either) magnetic or electrical field that the fish can detect, we all know that some fish can detect electrical muscle impulses of fish hiding in sand in the sea... who's to say freshwater fish cannot detect the same fields from metal mixes in rig components... as you said yourself, "they know something is different"  you said that yourself, but do you know what they are spooking at... really...??? 

Watching similar videos I came to a different conclusion. When carp are feeding the food is wafting about in the disturbance. Anything attached to a line behaves differently and stands out like a sore thumb.

[carpepecheur]

1 hour ago, bluelabel said:

Someone posted a few pics of the Anchor rig a while ago, dunno if it was on here or another site, but basically it had a stiff mono through the shrink tube kicker  so the rig looked like a mini anchor

I tested that idea some time ago. The idea is that if the hook slides along the side of the mouth those arms turn the hook into the flesh. However, it works against you if the hook is on its back.

[yonny]

7 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

this is my point... I 'm wondering if the mix of metals in rig components is causing a low level (either) magnetic or electrical field that the fish can detect

Every single carp that has ever been caught on rod and line was hooked on a piece of metal bro.

8 minutes ago, bluelabel said:

some fish can detect electrical muscle impulses

All fish can detect electrical impulses - but a piece of metal cannot give off an impulse. It can have an inherent level of magnetism, but it cannot give off an impulse.

We can agree to disagree but imo if fish could distinguish metals none of us would ever have caught a carp in our lives.