Shelf life boilies

[buzzbomb]

If speaking frankly about a company on the internet was prosecute-able Fairbrass would have all our stuff at his house.

[greekskii]

9 hours ago, Dez Animaux said:

You don't know what's in it, mate

Nobody does apart from Mainline management, I doubt even the floor staff know

How hard do you think it is to buy a bag of bait, then send it off for chemical analysis? 

I could do it out my own pocket from home. You really think other bait companies don’t? I’ve seen the chemical analysis of it. And of a few other big name baits. I can personally guarantee you the levels of protein, etc. Are not as high as I want them in a bait. Digestabilty is the key with the cell. Quicker they pass it quicker they need to eat again. That’s where the easy to get hold of yeast ingredient comes in to play. Funnily enough other companies use that same ingredient and don’t call it special. 

[Guest Dez Animaux]

7 hours ago, greekskii said:

the levels of protein, etc. Are not as high as I want them in a bait. 

That old chestnut eh?

I thought the high protein obsession died in the late 90s! 

Come on mate it's easy and dirt cheap to ''throw'' protein into a bait if they wanted to.. look at Halibut pellets, those horrible things are 50% protein and cheap as chips

I know which I'd rather use between a nice fresh cell boilie and a rotten old shelf life halibut pellet.. 

Also, you DON'T know what's in cell, mate, no scientific test can reveal the formula and all the ingredients

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dez Animaux

[hutch]

You taking your tablets this morning Dez

Dont believe Vic stated what his ideal protein level is, I would guess its not above 50% as carp can only utilise around 38% in one passing, its not about protein % any way it about how well the fish can utilise the protein in a given product.

 No one mentioned halibut pellets

Quote

Also, you DON'T know what's in cell, mate, no scientific test can reveal the formula and all the ingredients

Its on the BAG!!!, lab analysis can tell exactly whats in a given product. oh and Vic's lab used to be at Sparsholt College  , before calling someone out do your ground work 

[Guest Dez Animaux]

11 minutes ago, hutch said:

You taking your tablets this morning Dez

Dont believe Vic stated what his ideal protein level is, I would guess its not above 50% as carp can only utilise around 38% in one passing, its not about protein % any way it about how well the fish can utilise the protein in a given product.

 No one mentioned halibut pellets

Its on the BAG!!!, lab analysis can tell exactly whats in a given product. oh and Vic's lab used to be at Sparsholt College  , before calling someone out do your ground work 

I don't care how qualified someone is, I know for a FACT that no scientific analysis could tell you the EXACT recipe of any given boilie.

There are MILLIONS of variants, in fact BILLIONS, between every given cereal (and CEREAL is what it says on the bag) and the ???? amount, type, level etc. of the flavourings, all a lab analysis will do is pick up on individual chemicals and identify them, some of those chemicals will be present in the cereals, the liquids, AND the flavours.

One thing I know is that some scientists like to believe they have nature ''cracked'', when they are in fact a million miles from it.

You're barking up the wrong tree, are both talking out of your beehives, and this conversation is in fact getting boring. I have heard it all before, but this is tripe. I'm not a yes man and I know for a fact you are talking nonsense. A scientific test will pick up a MILLION chemicals and chemical elements, which in ZERO way will explain a recipe, even a cake recipe from one country to another will vary almost infinitely in analysis..

I have some respect for science to a point, but it is very limited indeed.. So you're barking up the wrong tree at an old boy who has heard it all before. Sorry if I sound like I'm overreacting but One thing I refuse to come on here for is people trying to shove their TRIPE opinions and easily swayed beliefs down my throat. 🤐

[hutch]

Wont say which product this is analysis of but its from a lab test on a big bait companies product

25g citric acid
50ml Water
15ml Boiled Ham
10ml Maple
5ml E422 (Glycerol)

Close enough for me, quantity is based around he amount of liquid tested. And the guy who tested does lab testing for a living,

Cereals are bulking agents there is nothing in there nutritional profile a carp can process they simply do not have the requirements to do so, they are used in baits as they are cheap and although not directly bad for carp they just stinky winky it out because there is no gain in there.

Nearly every ingredient in use has come from animal/aquatic feeds industry these industries are heavily regulated by DEFRA and any item used in feeds has to have a detailed spec sheet produced detailing exactly what is in that ingredient and the process that's been used to create it.  From these sheets you can tell whether an ingredient is useful for a bait or not.

 

Quote

So you're barking up the wrong tree at an old boy who has heard it all before. Sorry if I sound like I'm overreacting but One thing I refuse to come on here for is people trying to shove their TRIPE opinions and easily swayed beliefs down my throat

CM is that you 😒 

[harpz_31]

52 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said:

don't care how qualified someone is, I know for a FACT that no scientific analysis could tell you the EXACT recipe of any given boilie.

If you could I dont think colonel Saunders secret blend of herbs and spices would secret for long

[Guest Dez Animaux]

SORRY FOR LOSING THE HEAD A BIT LADS

I just get a bit sensitive to people knocking a big brand bait for the wrong reasons

I think it's easy for people to see a commercial bait as ''simple'' and a bit ''gimicky'' when it is in fact complex, and very proven, and extremely successful.. I am a staunch believer that a bait does not have to be made from Megalodon caviar and gold leaf and the finest Wagyu cow acid rennets from Northern Greenland and Cullinan diamond extract mineral content

I tried an ''ultrabait'' hyper expensive Hyper protein ''secret'' mix from a bait boffin before, it cost me a FORTUNE to mix, and it was absolutely, completely and utterly PANTS

You get my drift. 

They hit on a great recipe, you don't know what it is, exactly what cereal combos they use etc. are and always will be unknown to us

It is a legendary product and a design classic

I love the stuff

Plus Fairbrass and Hamidi use it, so:

ner ner ner ner ner

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dez Animaux

[Guest Dez Animaux]

56 minutes ago, hutch said:

Wont say which product this is analysis of but its from a lab test on a big bait companies product

25g citric acid
50ml Water
15ml Boiled Ham
10ml Maple
5ml E422 (Glycerol)

Activ 8

But that's just the liquids and doesn't explain the bulk of the bait, and it's Parma ham not boiled ham

[greekskii]

29 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said:

Plus Fairbrass and Hamidi use it, so:

They are using the new link and fyber at the minute I believe. 

You can make a bait with the exact same nutritional profile as the Cell with 4 ingredients. I have seen the data analysis to show it. All of those ingredients are cheap cereals. In bulk you can make it for around £3 a kilo of ingredients. Less if you bought ingredients in tonnes. 

No one has said these baits don’t work, it’s just that those who know about full nutritional requirements of fish know they don’t contain what the fish need. I’d rather use a bait that gives the fish a bit of everything. As Hutch said, carp can only use 38% protein from a food source. Personally the bait im using right now has a protein level of over 40%. Why? Because the 10 or so ingredients all have high protein levels but also other minerals, fats, etc. That benefit the carp. They are easily digestible because of the ingredients. They are extremely palatable to the fish (something often overlooked) They have a high nutritional value. Long term this type of bait will work for longer than your basic mixes. 

39 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said:

They hit on a great recipe, you don't know what it is, exactly what cereal combos they use etc. are and always will be unknown to us

Again, you only have to look at suppliers and ingredients you can purchase to realise it’s nothing that can’t be replicated with ease in your kitchen as there’s is no secret yeast, I can buy it online, so can you. 

In the bait industry there is no major secrets, remember these guys used to share the knowledge back in the day. It’s a fairly close knit network behind the scenes. Suppliers don’t have loyalties either. 

 

Believe what you wish buddy, the cell, Manila, krill, key all work, they are still nothing super special and you’ll find much better quality at cheaper prices, with a longer track record. 

 

Btw lads, defo not CM. He wouldn’t call me out like that! Can we un-ban him now? 

[Guest Dez Animaux]

2 minutes ago, greekskii said:

Btw lads, defo not CM. He wouldn’t call me out like that! Can we un-ban him now? 

In what way did I ''call you out''?

Plus you missed the most important part of my argument:

I tried an ''ultrabait'', it was from a super duper bait scientist, top secret old school ultra expensive mix with all the very best bits and bobs such as the finest Essential oils on the market, Esters, High level High grade Caseins both Rennet and Acid, High level Nutramino, The finest Talin sweetners etc. etc.

 

And it was RUBBISH, couldn't buy a bite on several different venues, France included.

I could not have mixed it more carefully and cleanly either.. 

Succesful readymades every time for me now, I have no interest in the knockers who think they know best. And I reiterate: You do NOT know the Cell recipe. If you do, prove it by sharing..

Bait is just a tool we use, I learnt a while ago not to get too deeply into it and instead just use something I have confidence in.

The other thing about it is it's pretty boring at the end of the day.

My experience of smaller bait companies is that they are all ''know alls'' who claim this, that and the other about the big names, one of them said that he was better as he used ''whole egg''.. and cited Dynamite for using powdered egg..

I just laughed and said: ''Have you got Dynamite baits number mate, because fair play to them for working that out, I know how filling eggs are, try eating more than five for your breakfast if you don't believe me, and I would far sooner feed low egg mixes to the carp than your omlettes''!!!!

[greekskii]

3 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said:

In what way did I ''call you out''?

Plus you missed the most important part of my argument:

I tried an ''ultrabait'', it was from a super duper bait scientist, top secret old school ultra expensive mix with all the very best bits and bobs such as the finest Essential oils on the market, Esters, High level High grade Caseins both Rennet and Acid, High level Nutramino, The finest Talin sweetners etc. etc.

 

And it was RUBBISH, couldn't buy a bite on several different venues, France included.

I could not have mixed it more carefully and cleanly either.. 

Succesful readymades every time for me now, I have no interest in the knockers who think they know best. And I reiterate: You do NOT know the Cell recipe. If you do, prove it by sharing..

Bait is just a tool we use, I learnt a while ago not to get too deeply into it and instead just use something I have confidence in.

The other thing about it is it's pretty boring at the end of the day.

My experience of smaller bait companies is that they are all ''know alls'' who claim this, that and the other about the big names, one of them said that he was better as he used ''whole egg''.. and cited Dynamite for using powdered egg..

I just laughed and said: ''Have you got Dynamite baits number mate, because fair play to them for working that out, I know how filling eggs are, try eating more than five for your breakfast if you don't believe me, and I would far sooner feed low egg mixes to the carp than your omlettes''!!!!

By basically saying what I said is utter rubbish. Just like cell boilies. You said before that you don’t like opinions rammed down your throat but you’re more than happy to ram yours down everyone’s? 

No one has disagreed with the fact these baits work, just they are not worth the price tag as they are basic mixes. Especially cell. 

I’d say your ultrabait probably was either not put in the right location or potentially too much for the fish on the chemoreceptors, etc. I’ve seen ‘ultrabaits’ fail too and be outfished by sweetcorn, in fact I’ve seen most boilies outfished by breadcrust or dog biscuits. 

Eggs are used as binders in bait, fresh egg is ideal (you wouldn’t make your toast and then sprinkle powdered egg on it) but due to liquid content and binding properties of other ingredients used then sometimes it’s not possible to use all fresh egg. Powdered egg is also ALOT cheaper than fresh egg, and easier to deal with. It also is just egg white whereas fresh egg included the yolks and the nutrition from that, which has to be factored in to the recipe. Personally I’d prefer to eat a real egg than powdered.

Not sure you’re “5 eggs are filling” thing makes any sense when it comes to bait. Or any other recipe to be honest. Eggs go in cakes, yet a sponge cake is nowhere near as filling as the eggs used in it. Same principle as bait. 

Oh and you also get the eggshell which adds texture when using a whole egg. 

I’m going to stop now because 1. I’m bored and 2. You won’t open your mind but you are trying to force us to believe your opinion is fact. You’ll say I’m doing the same but I’m just repeating actual facts I’ve learnt. My opinion is that cell is rubbish, not worth the money, the same as sticky Manila, Nash Key, ccmoore tuna and a few others. I do rate some other baits in their ranges, XXX & scopex squid for example. I’m not trying to make anyone believe that as fact though. 

[Guest Dez Animaux]

1 minute ago, greekskii said:

By basically saying what I said is utter rubbish. Just like cell boilies. You said before that you don’t like opinions rammed down your throat but you’re more than happy to ram yours down everyone’s? 

No one has disagreed with the fact these baits work, just they are not worth the price tag as they are basic mixes. Especially cell. 

I’d say your ultrabait probably was either not put in the right location or potentially too much for the fish on the chemoreceptors, etc. I’ve seen ‘ultrabaits’ fail too and be outfished by sweetcorn, in fact I’ve seen most boilies outfished by breadcrust or dog biscuits. 

Eggs are used as binders in bait, fresh egg is ideal (you wouldn’t make your toast and then sprinkle powdered egg on it) but due to liquid content and binding properties of other ingredients used then sometimes it’s not possible to use all fresh egg. Powdered egg is also ALOT cheaper than fresh egg, and easier to deal with. It also is just egg white whereas fresh egg included the yolks and the nutrition from that, which has to be factored in to the recipe. Personally I’d prefer to eat a real egg than powdered.

Not sure you’re “5 eggs are filling” thing makes any sense when it comes to bait. Or any other recipe to be honest. Eggs go in cakes, yet a sponge cake is nowhere near as filling as the eggs used in it. Same principle as bait. 

Oh and you also get the eggshell which adds texture when using a whole egg. 

I’m going to stop now because 1. I’m bored and 2. You won’t open your mind but you are trying to force us to believe your opinion is fact. You’ll say I’m doing the same but I’m just repeating actual facts I’ve learnt. My opinion is that cell is rubbish, not worth the money, the same as sticky Manila, Nash Key, ccmoore tuna and a few others. I do rate some other baits in their ranges, XXX & scopex squid for example. I’m not trying to make anyone believe that as fact though. 

I did actually apologise for being a bit ''brusque'', and would have hoped to get some politeness back for that, but life is too short to worry about that at the end of the day

I got a bit wound up by people coming on all superior and scientific on me and so I provided another argument, and made an effort with it to boot.

One thing I never did though is try and ram my opinions down people's throats, I know I didn't as that is not my style.

BUT I will stick up for my opinions, different thing altogether actually..

And there is nothing wrong with having strong opinions anyway, as you know!

Bait is actually boring, educate yourself and have some morals, then its go play.. I think that sums it all up fairly well.

 

[cyborx]

my opinion is that Cell and sticky manilla are both absolute cack, i used them both for over a season and my catch rate went right down.

but that coming from someone who is only bothered what a bait will do and not what a bait contains so dont jump down my throat eh!!

IMO cherrycarp baits are doing the thing at the mo so are the number one bait for me

[snowmanstevo]

2 minutes ago, Gazlaaar said:

Blimey this has gotten heated, if I'd of known I would of picked up a bag of popcorn.

Or a bag of peanuts,Gaz. 

Did I just mention Peanuts 🥜........ now thats a whole different thread,apparently 😆😆😆😆

 

Sorry,me bad. 😬

[Guest Dez Animaux]

4 minutes ago, cyborx said:

IMO cherrycarp baits are doing the thing at the mo so are the number one bait for me

I wouldn't touch that Solar knockoff with a pho-ooken bargpole as I'm not into copycats

But nice try mate

And it didn't get ''heated'' in the slightest, it was a strong debate and quite interesting I found

[cyborx]

23 hours ago, Dez Animaux said:

You shouldn't quote people out of context.

It makes me look bad when YOU were the one bad mouthing Sticky.

 

wouldnt let a little thing like that bother you bud, thats just chilly being chilly

are you a Sticky rep, or one of their bait testers maybe? cos your sure defensive of them and it makes me wonder why.

have i missed a trick? was there something that i was doing wrong when i use Manilla?

i await the response with baited breath..... see wot i did there?

[Guest Dez Animaux]

Not a rep of anybody and never will be mate

Have caught well on Sticky so I was sticking up for them, as well as I was with Mainline

Just sick of people knocking on here, it all hints a little of both arrogance and jealousy when you start trying to rubbish very successful baits

Also I have tried some smaller companies at length before and found them absolute pants, been around the block a bit me, so not a fan of badmouthing when I have perhaps had experience of ''their side'' of the arguments a little more than they realise

[Steve001]

Hi all I haven't been on here for some time but popped in and woah some serious debate going on. 

Cell etc is, in all honesty pretty low nutrition value but does catch a lot of fish due to highest available "food source" . you could apply any old toot and get a result. 

 

As for the cell recipe, I shouldn't imagine it's much more than rapeseed meal, soya bean meal, micronised maize, copra meal, yeast and at a push some added lysine mega cheap and would work. Add a suitable angler friendly flavour, big names all over social media and voila, money machine. 

[Gazlaaar]

12 minutes ago, snowmanstevo said:

Or a bag of peanuts,Gaz. 

Did I just mention Peanuts 🥜........ now thats a whole different thread,apparently 😆😆😆😆

 

Sorry,me bad. 😬

Shhhh we only talk about the P word with the curtains closed

[Guest Dez Animaux]

6 minutes ago, Steve001 said:

Hi all I haven't been on here for some time but popped in and woah some serious debate going on. 

Cell etc is, in all honesty pretty low nutrition value but does catch a lot of fish due to highest available "food source" . you could apply any old toot and get a result. 

 

As for the cell recipe, I shouldn't imagine it's much more than rapeseed meal, soya bean meal, micronised maize, copra meal, yeast and at a push some added lysine mega cheap and would work. Add a suitable angler friendly flavour, big names all over social media and voila, money machine. 

It's far and away not as simple as that, and people do not continue to buy a bait that doesn't work

But well done on trying to sound clever

[Steve001]

Thanks very much, but im really not trying to look clever. That's my opinion on the subject which appears to different to yours. I can respect your views and difference of opinion and would perhaps appreciate the same in return.

[hutch]

Quote

Activ 8

But that's just the liquids and doesn't explain the bulk of the bait, and it's Parma ham not boiled ham

No but close

If your using a bait that depends on its liquid profile, then that part needs to be very attractive.  Parma Ham is no longer available Campbells discontinued it  but that did slot in the really good flavour band.

Quote

I tried an ''ultrabait'', it was from a super duper bait scientist, top secret old school ultra expensive mix

Who mentioned a good bait needs to be expensive, there are loads of great baits around the £6-7 a kilo mark some even less.

Quote

You do NOT know the Cell recipe. If you do, prove it by sharing..

How many times its on the BAG!!!!!!!!!!!, they sell in europe therefore to meet regs for selling in the EU they have to list the ingredients.

Quote

My experience of smaller bait companies is that they are all ''know alls'' who claim this, that and the other about the big names, one of them said that he was better as he used ''whole egg''.. and cited Dynamite for using powdered egg..

Nothing wrong with using whole egg powder, it sometimes used to aid quick attractor release and breakdown quite a few people use liquid egg.  Used a lot by our friends on the continent in there baits.

[hutch]

Quote

Plus Fairbrass and Hamidi use it, so:

Hmmm theres alot of rumours regarding Korda members going to baitworks due to bait quality issues (not my headline just whats circulating in the industry)

Quote

As for the cell recipe, I shouldn't imagine it's much more than rapeseed meal, soya bean meal, micronised maize, copra meal, yeast and at a push some added lysine mega cheap and would work. Add a suitable angler friendly flavour, big names all over social media and voila, money machine. 

Your not far wrong I don't think, and would reflect the listing on the bag. Maybe missing a bit of skimmed milk powder 

[cyborx]

38 minutes ago, Dez Animaux said:

I wouldn't touch that Solar knockoff with a pho-ooken bargpole as I'm not into copycats

But nice try mate

And it didn't get ''heated'' in the slightest, it was a strong debate and quite interesting I found

well well, NOW who is running down baits that he knows naff all about?

solar knock off? your showing your ignorance there buddy, the same team are making cherry's baits as were when they were 'partnered' with solar, the break up was all about the mark up that solar wanted to add and that you can take to the bank, i did quite an in depth look as to the why's and whatfor's for over 12 months before taking a leap of faith.

as to the second bit of your statement, and "quoting out of context", i have made precisely two posts (not counting this one) and in neither one did i mention "getting heated", dont start out playing by your own rulebook cos "here be dragons" as they say

i know your not CM cos your not in the same league but i would lay bets on you being a reincarnation of 'the carphauler' though.