Unfenced lakes

[B.C.]

6 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

Let me ask all you lads a question, would you like to see the U.S. or Australian problem with carp taking over and dominating our water courses and the rapid decline of native speceis, personally, i would not, but i think the E.A have recognised that the breeding and stocking programmes of the carp fraternity lead us down this path, do you really want  to go there.

There are more carp in our lakes and waterways than ever before. Lakes that were once mixed fisheries are being netted for Tench,Bream silvers, to create "Carp" waters, all in the name of business.... If, as a businessman, you wish to cross swords with nature itself, then expect the unexpected. The rules of business mean nothing to Mother nature. Don't cry if your business gets flooded out, hit by a hurricane or decimated by a wild animal, it happens..... You've picked a fight with a giant that you can never control...... So take it on the chin or move on.

The more I think about it, (and I have done lately due to various threads), the more I believe that otters could well be the saviour that true carp fishing needs.  IMO, the industry has created  a monster, too many anglers fishing for too many fish, 30lbers ten a penny, lakes with nothing under 20lb. An industry that feeds more Asians than Brits. The true ethos of angling, be that hunting or trapping, and the skills that come with it, being lost to people shooting fish in a barrel. The odd runs water, fine for youngsters to learn how to handle double figure fish..... Lakes with 80 plus carp per acre, no thanks. Nature would have nothing to do with that and reminds us every now and then by natural culling, via disease or predation, low oxygen etc....

Yes, otters were reintroduced, but not all of them. They've bred successfully and spread around the country because of the rich pickings that the businessman has put on a plate for them.

Ask these questions,

Do otters damage businesses?............... Can do.

Does otter predation damage angling?...........Nope, not in my opinion. Not for the sort of angling I enjoy. There are still fish to be caught and in more natural numbers. If fewer fish leads to a decline in anglers on the bank then bring it on. It will be an acid test to see what people are really in it for.... The pleasure or the man made glory.

I'd wager, that when the balance is achieved, with healthy numbers of otters and fish side by side, that there will still be 100 times more carp than there used to be. But whilst we are still stuffing more fish into our lakes,(again, all in the name of business) that balance will be hard to achieve.

They say "Don't mix business with pleasure", I'd go further to say "Don't mix business with nature"

 

[chillfactor]

What are you basing that argument on though BC? 

I can tell you now that one of the lakes I was fishing was lower stock than anything anyone else on here is or was fishing.  Hasn't stopped the otter wiping it out . 

Bit like you can tell people who haven't fished at range .... you can also tell people who haven't had or seen the otters work close up .

 

[nigewoodcock]

How about an otter taking every carp (all 7 of them) in a water that is over 90 acres and over 35/40ft deep. 

That water contains bream (it’s done the record but not claimed, a number of times), tench, roach, perch, pike, and eels. 

This same lake has people walking around it every day of the year, sailing boats and bird watchers. It’s not a quiet lake. The otters have evolved into a species that doesn’t fear man like they used to. Is this down to being hand reared??? 

You cant compare eras in the same light when there are massive differences in the variables. 

[B.C.]

1 hour ago, chillfactor said:

What are you basing that argument on though BC? 

Basing it on a few waters that I know of that haven't been completely wiped out, still unfenced, otters moved on. There's loads of cases like this. 

BTW, I wasn't arguing, just airing my views........ Been on club lakes for a while and seen what some of them are doing to their lakes, turning them into the equivelant of carp only  lakes, making a mockery of carp angling, big head of carp and no so called nuisance fish. Catching, not fishing....... 

 

59 minutes ago, nigewoodcock said:

How about an otter taking every carp (all 7 of them) in a water that is over 90 acres and over 35/40ft deep. 

That's a shame, it no doubt fed on other fish  20lb bream for instance and wasn't soley their for the carp but finally got them. Maybe if their was a hundred carp to begin with there would be a few left.

Just wondering how you know there were exactly 7 carp in a water that size, perhaps 7 "known" carp.

My question is, why base a livelihood around something you can't control?  

1 hour ago, nigewoodcock said:

massive differences in the variables. 

Natural variables compared to man made variables, there's your difference in era's

I'm not claiming to be an expert on otters, and with the exception of Frank, I haven't come across anyone on this forum that knows a great deal, in depth, on the subject. All our views are based on our own experiences or whatever strikes a chord from what other's say, an opinion is an opinion at the end of the day. There are always exceptional examples, such as the lake you mentioned above.

There are a lot of lakes in my area, perhaps why they move on before killing everything, but their presence is clear.......

There's no need to have a pop at anyone at all, on any subject on this forum. The distance fishing comment, no need for it, people were trying to help. We are not all experts at everything, 

My thoughts are never set in stone, free thinker, open to new ideas and opinions. My OP, well, that's just the way I feel about it all atm.

 

 

 

[chillfactor]

25 minutes ago, B.C. said:

Basing it on a few waters that I know of that haven't been completely wiped out, still unfenced, otters moved on. There's loads of cases like this. 

 

 

 

Just a matter of time mate that's all. 

[salokcinnodrog]

Oh, its getting touchy, not argumentative, but we are touching on issues within angling as a whole, and opinions are split both ways.

 

In 'natural' waters, nature finds a balance, between silver fish, tench, bream, pike, carp and perch. On the whole we have created carp only waters, and carp only anglers, in the process taking out other species. There are so many lakes that are carp only, from match fisheries where carp are used to build big winning weights, to 'specimen' carp only waters, big fish, loads of carp from say stocked at 10lb to biggest fish going 30lb+.

 

Any fishery owner that creates or owns a fishery now is a complete norbert if they do not put a fence around it if it is at all possible.

The cost of a fence is cheap compared to stock, however it goes missing, otters, other causes...

However as has been mentioned, other nature can't go through a fence either, foxes, deer, badgers, which do not predate on fish, but use the water for drinking, or hunting insects, rats, or if a fish does die and get near the bank, scavenge it.

 

I think B.C. and I are the same sort of area, I won't join CAPS, because there are so many carp anglers. A non carp angler may struggle to find a swim at the weekend. 

 

I do disagree slightly with B.C. though as grouse moors, which put money into a business are actually managed, and create more nature within the environment, however a fishery where money is king, other species are losing out. Anyone can create a fishery, dig a hole, get change of land use document, fill it with water, stick £10000 worth of carp in, and there is a day ticket lake that will make money.

 

Otters are protected, over protected in my opinion, and partly because of that numbers are higher than they should be. Carp I do not think are as good as avoiding otter predation than other species. Carp mostly, do not shoal like roach or bream, which protect themselves in numbers. Add to that, a 20lb carp,  likely higher nutritional value than a 1lb roach, less effort to catch the carp than the roach or bream.

Yes all species are at risk, but carp more so.

[chillfactor]

 

The problem is the very venues some might think they will be left with, are the one's disapparing first ! 

BC wasn't having a pop either mate apologies if you thought I was .

[jh92]

Well the one I went to this morning has been closed, not sure why but the gates were shut with a sign up saying closed. Just been to another that's open, getting fencing put all around it and its free fishing until it's complete, so came home to get bedchair and bag, gonna do a night I think 

[B.C.]

2 hours ago, chillfactor said:

BC wasn't having a pop either mate apologies if you thought I was .

No worries Chill, I was in rant mode earlier.... Had a chilled out walk round a lake to clear my head.... All good.

[levigsp]

On ‎16‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 06:42, carpmachine said:

yep, and go to the American posts, Otters not a problem , natural balance, they are a nuisance at the moment but it will balance out.

You make me laugh trying to compare the two.

In the states the people who trap fur are fantastic at it, they know how, where etc, yet most struggle to get an otter or two a season.

Here in the UK you would get dozens if you trapped the same area of land as the trap lines in the states. I know places in Europe where fish farms are killing 2-6 otters a year, and there are far fewer otter there, so what chance have our carp fisheries got.

I get sick to the stomach listening to people going on about the natural balance, I wish people would wake up to the fact the HUMANS are part and parcel of the natural balance, we are not separated from nature, although a lot of people would like to think we are.

[levigsp]

24 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

Frank, read what the chap said, they make hats out of otters, but they are thriving, so are the fish and by most peoples views on here ther shouldnt be a carp left in the U.S., i just dont agree with you and the long term experience of the U.S. supports that view.

I did read, they do use the furs, I did say they trap them for fur did I not!

They do thrive, but now YOU LOOK UP the actual statistics about populations per hectre and then try telling me.

Next do you realise that carp in the UK take  5-1 usa years to grow to same size? that for every 10 fish naturally spawned here in the UK the figure is 1000 in Europe and closer to 10000 in the USA and Australia, that's why they are a pest.

You simply cannot compare the different countries never mind continents.

You remind me of lots of people talking about foxes," Oh there not that bad, if they were left alone there would be a natural balance" bla bla, then they move to the country, buy some chickens and phone the likes of me and its the " they should exterminate all foxes" 

The average persons love of Otters, Foxes and Gippos is in direct proportion to the distance they live away from them  [Frank Law].

I do not wish to exterminate otters, I love seeing them, I have an affinity with them having kept them for many years, But I see them for what they are with my own eyes, not through media taught rose tinted glasses.

And I know that unless something along the lines of Parvo wipes the otters out in the UK, normal carp lakes in the UK don't stand a chance, unless we simply treat them as put and take lakes, we put them in the otters take them out. 

[levigsp]

3 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

Maybe we just put too mant in recently Frank, pointless argument, what will be will be, i hope i am right and you are wrong, only time will tell, i doubt the wild carp in the U.S. put on weight faster than the strains bred here.

You are VERY wrong, the carp in the USA grow far faster than anything in the UK, its all down to degree days, and they have far more, so more food and more growth.

You are right about it being pointless, because in the UK, regardless of what anyone says or does the likes of Chris Peckham will always win and the true naturalists and persons who live by the countryside will lose.

[yonny]

They'll always go for the bigger i.e. slower fish cm.

[greekskii]

1 hour ago, carpmachine said:

Just out of interest, has anyone come across any dead tench, courtesy of the otter, so far, i have only seen fish with a lighter colouration, carp and bream.

Tench tend to bury themselves in silt over the winter too. Strange but they'll go deep under it. 

I was on a fish farm netting a drained pond, I was told to never step on the same footprint because the tench would hide in them. Every year it was fully drained and emptied of fish. Once refilled there would be the odd tench appear like some sort of miracle. 

[kevtaylor]

1 hour ago, carpmachine said:

Frank, this is an educational question, i bow to your superior knowledge, answer me this, why are all the records coming from Europe, France has produced many big fish, Hungary , the world record, Poland has some beuats, Belgium and Holland in Northern Europe, also, i have had contact with the lads in the States, South  Africa, Bangladesh, Australia, nothing of European size has been reported, if you are right, why, i reckon something else is going on here, its not all down to climate, advise please.

Probably because they haven't even started scratching at the surface of what carp might be in Cananda and America.  Sure there is a little bit of carp fishing going on but compared to the opportunities available in terms of water volume and sheer carp numbers I cant imagine they have got anywhere near to catching their biggest fish.

Most of the countries listed have been extensively carp fished (pressured) for decades.

Just my take on it 

[nigewoodcock]

Also, they grow bigger quicker, could be alluding to not so much of what top weights they can achieve but more to do with the fact they grow past a size that a lot of predators, like other fish, can take. After all, cm was questioning why they have higher populations. This is definitely one of the variables. 

[B.C.]

17 hours ago, greekskii said:

Tench tend to bury themselves in silt over the winter too.

I was chatting on the bank the other day, a fella was telling me that one year he thought he'd had all his koi stolen, double figure fish, in a large pond. He spotted a tiny fleck of colour in one corner on the bottom. There they were, all huddled together under the silt with just the tip of the odd tail poking through the silt. I've seen smaller goldfish hide beneath leaf litter in ponds when temps bottom out.... I forgot to ask him the depth of his pond. I can imagine quite a few fish behaving like this. 

[levigsp]

5 hours ago, carpmachine said:

Frank, this is an educational question, i bow to your superior knowledge, answer me this, why are all the records coming from Europe, France has produced many big fish, Hungary , the world record, Poland has some beuats, Belgium and Holland in Northern Europe, also, i have had contact with the lads in the States, South  Africa, Bangladesh, Australia, nothing of European size has been reported, if you are right, why, i reckon something else is going on here, its not all down to climate, advise please.

The answer is long and complicated but I will start with the Europe. The Carp here are in their homeland, the closer to their[species] birth place the better they do, so carp in Hungary will do better than carp in Germany on average.

Up until recently the culture in Europe was to catch what you can and eat it, so carp never grew big at all, but now the iron curtain has gone and people have more cash, they would sooner buy a lump of salmon, so the carp do get chance to grow and because they grow fast it does not take long for monsters to appear, this combined with a relatively new movement of pleasure carp angling has resulted in the catches you hear about.

Next comes SA, the carp here are a mixed bunch bred from the original German fish and later aditions of Israeli fish and the can and do grow massive, somewhere in my files I have photos of 3 carp weighing in the 70-80lb bracket shot by two Irish lads at Umlilo. These came from a freshwater storage dam that was very deep with no shallows [very important]The carp were stocked by the bucket load and allowed to grow, no shallows so no breeding so plenty of food for the fish. However a lot of waters have perfect breeding for the fish and are then massively over populated.

Australia had its fish from, Europe and Asia, so two different sub-species of carp, where only European carp live the same rules as SA apply and they can and do grow big, however the hybrids etc. don't grow so big and on top of this the constant harassment by people works against the carp. New Zealand had its fish from Asia and these were what we tend to call Koi, they reverted to wild type, small long and lean.

But as already stated by others on this thread, the USA and Canada are a different ball game in that most of Canada does not have enough degree days to produce big carp, they get a great start because of warm water in summer but suffer in winter, so tend to grow quick for a few years and then slow right down, also they are mainly in rivers as the ponds, lakes etc are a predators playground, with Bass, Pike, Muskies, Trout, Sturgeon etc. and of course the otter. USA is the same in some senses with predators reigning supreme yet in other its the same as SA, they over populate and starve themselves out. One thing I will say is in quiet backwaters where carp can thrive there will be carp as big if not bigger than anything in Europe, but people have to fish to catch them.

I think I've covered it all there in a simplified manner, although I could add a lot more.

 

 

[kevtaylor]

49 minutes ago, levigsp said:

The answer is long and complicated but I will start with the Europe. The Carp here are in their homeland, the closer to their[species] birth place the better they do, so carp in Hungary will do better than carp in Germany on average.

Up until recently the culture in Europe was to catch what you can and eat it, so carp never grew big at all, but now the iron curtain has gone and people have more cash, they would sooner buy a lump of salmon, so the carp do get chance to grow and because they grow fast it does not take long for monsters to appear, this combined with a relatively new movement of pleasure carp angling has resulted in the catches you hear about.

Next comes SA, the carp here are a mixed bunch bred from the original German fish and later aditions of Israeli fish and the can and do grow massive, somewhere in my files I have photos of 3 carp weighing in the 70-80lb bracket shot by two Irish lads at Umlilo. These came from a freshwater storage dam that was very deep with no shallows [very important]The carp were stocked by the bucket load and allowed to grow, no shallows so no breeding so plenty of food for the fish. However a lot of waters have perfect breeding for the fish and are then massively over populated.

Australia had its fish from, Europe and Asia, so two different sub-species of carp, where only European carp live the same rules as SA apply and they can and do grow big, however the hybrids etc. don't grow so big and on top of this the constant harassment by people works against the carp. New Zealand had its fish from Asia and these were what we tend to call Koi, they reverted to wild type, small long and lean.

But as already stated by others on this thread, the USA and Canada are a different ball game in that most of Canada does not have enough degree days to produce big carp, they get a great start because of warm water in summer but suffer in winter, so tend to grow quick for a few years and then slow right down, also they are mainly in rivers as the ponds, lakes etc are a predators playground, with Bass, Pike, Muskies, Trout, Sturgeon etc. and of course the otter. USA is the same in some senses with predators reigning supreme yet in other its the same as SA, they over populate and starve themselves out. One thing I will say is in quiet backwaters where carp can thrive there will be carp as big if not bigger than anything in Europe, but people have to fish to catch them.

I think I've covered it all there in a simplified manner, although I could add a lot more.

 

 

What he said!!! 

[yonny]

6 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

the puzzler for me is why known fish that come out all year get caught at higher weights in winter, less growth days and less food around.

My understanding is it is because the weight they put on is not the same as the weight we put on through eating. The extra weight is almost all eggs, it's not fat, and only partially due to natural increase in size with age. The food they eat during the build up to winter and the limited food they eat throughout allows for the eggs to be regenerated through the colder season. Hence winter/spring weights are banging.

Edited February 20, 2018 by yonny

[salokcinnodrog]

6 hours ago, levigsp said:

The answer is long and complicated but I will start with the Europe. The Carp here are in their homeland, the closer to their[species] birth place the better they do, so carp in Hungary will do better than carp in Germany on average.

Up until recently the culture in Europe was to catch what you can and eat it, so carp never grew big at all, but now the iron curtain has gone and people have more cash, they would sooner buy a lump of salmon, so the carp do get chance to grow and because they grow fast it does not take long for monsters to appear, this combined with a relatively new movement of pleasure carp angling has resulted in the catches you hear about.

Next comes SA, the carp here are a mixed bunch bred from the original German fish and later aditions of Israeli fish and the can and do grow massive, somewhere in my files I have photos of 3 carp weighing in the 70-80lb bracket shot by two Irish lads at Umlilo. These came from a freshwater storage dam that was very deep with no shallows [very important]The carp were stocked by the bucket load and allowed to grow, no shallows so no breeding so plenty of food for the fish. However a lot of waters have perfect breeding for the fish and are then massively over populated.

Australia had its fish from, Europe and Asia, so two different sub-species of carp, where only European carp live the same rules as SA apply and they can and do grow big, however the hybrids etc. don't grow so big and on top of this the constant harassment by people works against the carp. New Zealand had its fish from Asia and these were what we tend to call Koi, they reverted to wild type, small long and lean.

But as already stated by others on this thread, the USA and Canada are a different ball game in that most of Canada does not have enough degree days to produce big carp, they get a great start because of warm water in summer but suffer in winter, so tend to grow quick for a few years and then slow right down, also they are mainly in rivers as the ponds, lakes etc are a predators playground, with Bass, Pike, Muskies, Trout, Sturgeon etc. and of course the otter. USA is the same in some senses with predators reigning supreme yet in other its the same as SA, they over populate and starve themselves out. One thing I will say is in quiet backwaters where carp can thrive there will be carp as big if not bigger than anything in Europe, but people have to fish to catch them.

I think I've covered it all there in a simplified manner, although I could add a lot more.

 

 

Frank, 

Do the colder winters where the carp are under the ice and warmer summers affect the growth rates in any way?

I recall or seem to think, some of those countries its ice covered, then almost 2 days later ice free, and up in the high teens degrees Celsius. 

Also in that our English method of carp fishing as it has emigrated across the globe has given rise to bigger carp being able to be landed?

Or is this my imagination running wild...

[greekskii]

14 hours ago, carpmachine said:

Okay, this has turned into a cracking thread, so i am going to ask Frank another question that puzzles me, going on from what you have said about growth days, why is it that some carp are caught at their biggest weight during the depths of winter. My theory, there to be knocked down is that whilst natural food is present , they prefer to eat just that, but during Winter they take whatever is going, also i beleive that some carp never take anglers bait, but the puzzler for me is why known fish that come out all year get caught at higher weights in winter, less growth days and less food around.

A bear in winter hibernation weighs more than an active bear. 

Basically what yonny said is the answer. They pile on weight before winter and then are very sedentary and don't burn it off. It is used slowly over winter to keep them going and then to produce eggs before winter is out. 

 

10 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Do the colder winters where the carp are under the ice and warmer summers affect the growth rates in any way?

Yes. There is less growth in winter. This can be seen when reading scales for age data. There are tighter bands where there is less growth (winter) and more spaced out bands during growth period (summer). So you can work out an age based on how many winters the fish has been alive. The banding on the scales would likely be more prominent when the winters are harsh and the summers are very warm too. There would likely be rapid growth in the summer months and hardly any over winter, as is the case normally but this would be above average and below average. 

[levigsp]

22 hours ago, carpmachine said:

Okay, this has turned into a cracking thread, so i am going to ask Frank another question that puzzles me, going on from what you have said about growth days, why is it that some carp are caught at their biggest weight during the depths of winter. My theory, there to be knocked down is that whilst natural food is present , they prefer to eat just that, but during Winter they take whatever is going, also i beleive that some carp never take anglers bait, but the puzzler for me is why known fish that come out all year get caught at higher weights in winter, less growth days and less food around.

Its quite simple really, adult carp are at their lightest straight after spawning, not just because they have shed spawn / milt, but with all the excursions they lose body condition. They then set about eating and what they eat is important, remember this is normally the start to mid summer, naturally the food would be in the for of various natural fauna, all very high in protein and little else, this soon builds muscle and supplies the carp with any energy  it may need it is at this point that the carp gains any AVERAGE annual weight gain[if it is gaining at all][this is why I believe in High Usable Protein bait.]

By this time it is the end of Summer and heading into Autumn and this is where my own experiments taught me something new that is not normally seen in print and differs somewhat with what some people preach.                                                                                                                                        The carp start eating natural flora, this gives them carbohydrates that not only gives them the energy they need but lays down fat reserves that help them over the coming months.                                        As the autumn progresses and goes into winter the carps diet slowly changes into a high protein diet again, but far less that eaten in the warmer months, sometimes eating is so infrequent one might believe they don't feed at all, this is brought on by the cold water slowing down their metabolism and a lack of food also due to cold, it then becomes worthless for the carp to search out food expending valuable energy.                                                                                                                                             That energy is better utilised by converting it into Spawn/Milt, now dependent on each individual fish, this could be the point at which it is at its heaviest, or sometime later in others when the spawn has begun to expand somewhat.

You are then into spring and the water warming up, the carp then starts to burn the last of its fat reserves off as energy looking for food, if it finds enough, it wont lose weight, but if it finds it difficult it will lose condition using its one muscle for energy and the spawning process.                                    Then the whole cycle begins again.                                                                          

[yonny]

4 minutes ago, levigsp said:

By this time it is the end of Summer and heading into Autumn and this is where my own experiments taught me something new that is not normally seen in print and differs somewhat with what some people preach. The carp start eating natural flora, this gives them carbohydrates that not only gives them the energy they need but lays down fat reserves that help them over the coming months.

I've seen things that would support that.

[levigsp]

19 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Frank, 

Do the colder winters where the carp are under the ice and warmer summers affect the growth rates in any way?

I recall or seem to think, some of those countries its ice covered, then almost 2 days later ice free, and up in the high teens degrees Celsius. 

Also in that our English method of carp fishing as it has emigrated across the globe has given rise to bigger carp being able to be landed?

Or is this my imagination running wild...

Nick in waters fished little, the carp will do better with very cold winter so it is not expending energy that it cannot replace, that's one of the main reasons carp do well in Europe.

However if its a fished lake with plenty of feed going in, the carp can replace energy, so milder weather helps them, so in the Uk this is a better bet for the carp as mostly we don't get it cold enough, so the carp is looking for feed that is difficult to find unless put there by anglers.

You are right in that the English method of carp fishing has resulted in bigger carp being caught in the rest of the world.