360 rig

[Carpbell]

Same amount if metal as the hinged stiff rig you describe!

Yeah but, the swivel is placed a good distance from the hook on the stiff rig, the swivel on the 360 come into contact with the fish? By the looks of the rig. Luckily Carp are not known for deep hooking.

[saskcarp]

360 rigs ive used for years have never caused the damage claimed in this thread. Thats scientific through real life fishing not theories.only reason I went quiet on this is because uou can only express your actual experiences so many times before monotony sets in. Great rig and no more damage than a regular hair rig on fish of all sizes. Thats me take my word for it or dont. Every one has a right to an opinion. Happy fishing to whatever rig you use. So long as its safe like the 360 is.

[Gaz]

360 rigs ive used for years have never caused the damage claimed in this thread. Thats scientific through real life fishing not theories.only reason I went quiet on this is because uou can only express your actual experiences so many times before monotony sets in. Great rig and no more damage than a regular hair rig on fish of all sizes. Thats me take my word for it or dont. Every one has a right to an opinion. Happy fishing to whatever rig you use. So long as its safe like the 360 is.

that your opinion, what about the people that have seen the damage these rigs can and do cause? you might be the lucky one. there has been many accounts of terrible damage by these rigs, proven as well. as you said yourself, it gets monotomous. you havnt seen the damage, i and many others have, therefore until you see the damage you wont believe it, where as the many people that has seen the damage know for a fact that it exists. how many people from years gone by see the damage a bent hook caused? many people i know used it and never see the damage, would you use that now?

[grangemilky]

:yawn:

[Gaz]

lol, i just knew you would come up with something, it has been explained exactly how and why these rigs cause damage, shame not many people seem worried by it though, usually the ones that have no idea they just jump on the bandwagon and follow others without thinking and seeing the truth.

 

ok now we all put a hook into a fishes mouth when we have no real need to BUT, i for one will do it as safely as i possibly can, and by that i will not use a rig that has been proved to cause terrible damage, if you want to use that rig then unfortuanately there is nothing me or anyone else can do about it unles you fish a water where the said rig is banned

[grangemilky]

 it has been explained exactly how and why these rigs cause damage.

 

 

I have asked you time and time again to provide me with where anyone has explained WHY they cause damage, to no avail. 

[Gaz]

The 360 rig is sometimes pinned with mouth damage due to its mechanics, in the same way the long shank bent hook rig was in the 80-90s - indeed this rig was banned in many places. The long shank aspect used to "double hook" (hook through the lips multiple times, otherwise called stitching) and then tear in the carps mouth, the bent hook, if not bent correctly, would open and close at the point of bending kind of like an old fashioned can opener causing damage to the carp.

 

The fox series 5 - the first commercially available long shanked curved hook brought in to try and emulate the success of the bent hook rig. It was found that smaller, more frantic carp could "double hook" themselves which then tore, ripping the lips. The readon shrink tube became so popular was it allowed you to fish a "bent hook" which didnt cause the damage with the hook opening and closing like a can openerin the carps mouth this is why we bend and curve shrink tube, to emulate the bent hook rig.The link has been made between the longshanked aspect and the 360 rig, it has been said (by "them") that it can cause the double hooking which leads to mouth damage. The evidence is not exactly solid, in the case of the bent hook rig, the damage and its cause was obvious, and lots of lakes banned it. The 360 rig is used by many top anglers, mr dave lane being one of them, it is seen as a "big fish rig" mostly down to the fact it utilises a longshanked hook which can hook multiple times in a smaller carps mouth. It is also designed to be fished heavily weighted as opposed to critically balanced. The idea is that the pop up spins 360 degrees and hook in the bottom lip. The use of a longshank hook has always been linked to mouth damage to smaller carp. Whether its true or not? Well thats open to speculation, the old bent hook was brutal, but the 360 rig is well popular and well used, if it was as damaging as the old bent hook rig was, then we would know by now, its been out for years, i dont use it as its too much metal in/around the hook - plus the use of a longshank puts me off a bit, as i remember the mouth damage from the 1st longshank curved hooks and bent hook rigs. I havent seen the series 5 on sale for years, although fox do sell the armapoint LSC which look near as damn it identical.

 

here ya go

[Gaz]

Rob maylin also outlined the dangers of the bent hook rig in print too, once they became known. The 360 rig is attributed to dave lane who stated it was a "big fish" rig where the likelyhood of doublehooking/stitching the hook is less likely. Some mouth damage will be down to poor unhooking, refusal to cut the hook if required (or even not being aware this is an option, how many people truthfully think to snip a hook?) also using the 360 rig out of the context to which it was origionally designed. I think that its use on smaller fish, high stock runs waters (for which it wasnt designed) is another reason why mouth damage may be encountered. Personally i think there are other pop up rigs out there that are just as effective.

 

a little more for you

[grangemilky]

Have you actually read either of those? Neither give a definitive answer, nor fight your case very well.

If I ever go to court, remind me not to employ you as my lawyer.

[ouchthathurt]

I recognise those quotes - i wrote them.

 

Damage caused when:

 

Longshank hook peirces lip in smaller carp.

 

Hookpoint passes clean through lip and out the other side.

 

Smaller carp frantically swimming/jerking/headshaking

 

Hookpoint re-hooks lip at another point.

 

Pressure exerted pulls hookpoint home.

 

Carp now double hooked (stitched)

 

Pressure applied to part of mouth there hook dug in a second time - direct pressure from angler on 1st hook point - leteral/sideways pressure on 2nd.

 

Hook tears along the lip, ripping it along until the hook ends up back, single hooked, where it started, or tears free.

 

The bent hook rig used to do the same, as the hook flexed forwards and backwards at the point of bending during the fight making matters worse.

 

Of the two, the 360 rig is much safer, and is a "big fish rig" so if uded correctly in the right situation for big carp (that often fight slower and less frantic then little uns) is less risky. Its not the rigs fault, its the person who choses to use it in the wrong situation.

 

Like my job, i carry a rifle, i went round afghan with it, but my rifle itself isnt dangerous, i could walk past civvies without it bursting into gunfire, but it became dangerous when i chose to use it.

 

I have seen mouth damage with a 360 rig and one carp is enough. I think other rigs work just as well.

 

You would want me as your lawyer, you might not win, but i'd be cheaper!

 

[Gaz]

Have you actually read either of those? Neither give a definitive answer, nor fight your case very well.

If I ever go to court, remind me not to employ you as my lawyer.

i have quoted what ouch wrote, the truth is there yet you still argue, like always, you ALWAYS go out of your way to cause an argument, have done since you came onto this forum. either you really have no idea what your talking about and just wanna jump on the bandwagon? or you really dont care about the welfare of the fish? ouch has quoted exactly what these rigs can do so either disbelieve the post (the one you have been asking for) and carry on, or read it take it in and maybe just once think you might be wrong and might have been taught a valuble lesson about a damaging rig? the choice is yours really.

[salokcinnodrog]

360 rigs ive used for years have never caused the damage claimed in this thread. Thats scientific through real life fishing not theories.only reason I went quiet on this is because uou can only express your actual experiences so many times before monotony sets in. Great rig and no more damage than a regular hair rig on fish of all sizes. Thats me take my word for it or dont. Every one has a right to an opinion. Happy fishing to whatever rig you use. So long as its safe like the 360 is.

I never caused damage with The Bent Hook rig, yet I accept that mouth damage was caused by its use. I didn't use it for small fish, so maybe it wasn't an issue for me, yet I will no longer use it. The same goes for the 360 rig, it can potentially cause damage when used in the wrong situation, for the 'wrong' small fish, so therefore I will not use it.

 

I spent a lot of time examining and experimenting the dangers of Leadcore; I wrote about it, I put the results up, yet others choose not to believe them, despite pictures of (what I think) are leadcore line damaged fish one with fresh marks along the flanks, so as with everything there are people who won't believe what is written unless they see it for themselves in reality, or will convince themselves it doesn't happen or will never happen to them, as in the case of the 360 rig.

 

The simple answer is in many cases we confuse ourselves by fiddling and faffing looking at rigs when we should be looking at getting the fish feeding first

[grangemilky]

The 360 rig is sometimes pinned with mouth damage due to its mechanics, in the same way the long shank bent hook rig was in the 80-90s - indeed this rig was banned in many places. The long shank aspect used to "double hook" (hook through the lips multiple times, otherwise called stitching) and then tear in the carps mouth, the bent hook, if not bent correctly, would open and close at the point of bending kind of like an old fashioned can opener causing damage to the carp.

 

The fox series 5 - the first commercially available long shanked curved hook brought in to try and emulate the success of the bent hook rig. It was found that smaller, more frantic carp could "double hook" themselves which then tore, ripping the lips. The readon shrink tube became so popular was it allowed you to fish a "bent hook" which didnt cause the damage with the hook opening and closing like a can openerin the carps mouth this is why we bend and curve shrink tube, to emulate the bent hook rig.The link has been made between the longshanked aspect and the 360 rig, it has been said (by "them") that it can cause the double hooking which leads to mouth damage. The evidence is not exactly solid, in the case of the bent hook rig, the damage and its cause was obvious, and lots of lakes banned it. The 360 rig is used by many top anglers, mr dave lane being one of them, it is seen as a "big fish rig" mostly down to the fact it utilises a longshanked hook which can hook multiple times in a smaller carps mouth. It is also designed to be fished heavily weighted as opposed to critically balanced. The idea is that the pop up spins 360 degrees and hook in the bottom lip. The use of a longshank hook has always been linked to mouth damage to smaller carp. Whether its true or not? Well thats open to speculation, the old bent hook was brutal, but the 360 rig is well popular and well used, if it was as damaging as the old bent hook rig was, then we would know by now, its been out for years, i dont use it as its too much metal in/around the hook - plus the use of a longshank puts me off a bit, as i remember the mouth damage from the 1st longshank curved hooks and bent hook rigs. I havent seen the series 5 on sale for years, although fox do sell the armapoint LSC which look near as damn it identical.

 

 

 

This post explains to us that the 'Bent hook rig' was banned from many fisheries because it caused mouth damage. Its tells us that the 360 is believed to cause damage ''due to its mechanics'' without going on to explain what the mechanics of the 360 rig actually are, ore so it goes on to explain how the bent hook rig had been known to double hook. However, no REASON has been given as to why, nor does it explain how this relates to the 360 rig. 

The post then goes on to explain that the fox series 5, and indeed similar hook patterns have been said to cause mouth damage, he even states that the evidence is not solid. He even states that  

 

''The use of a longshank hook has always been linked to mouth damage to smaller carp. Whether its true or not? Well thats open to speculation, the old bent hook was brutal, but the 360 rig is well popular and well used, if it was as damaging as the old bent hook rig was, then we would know by now''

 

This post is not for ,nor against the 360 rig, he is merely telling us why 'they' believe that the 360 rig causes damage. There are no facts expressed nor REASONS as to why the 360 rig causes damage. However, long shank hooks have been brought into question, due to the length of the shank, the fulcrum point is undeniably much further back, so any movement at the eye whilst playing the fish gets exaggerated at the point where the hook enters the mouth. Still, many many people use long shank hooks without an issue.  

 

so, what did this post gives us an incite into peoples opinions. It tells us that the bent hook rig caused damage. Undeniable. It also tells us that  some people think that long-shank hooks cause damage. So from this we can undeniably come to the conclusion that the only thing about a 360 rig, is the use of a long shank hook. So ,with a shorter hook it would be safe? Right?

 

 

 

 

Rob maylin also outlined the dangers of the bent hook rig in print too, once they became known. The 360 rig is attributed to dave lane who stated it was a "big fish" rig where the likelyhood of doublehooking/stitching the hook is less likely. Some mouth damage will be down to poor unhooking, refusal to cut the hook if required (or even not being aware this is an option, how many people truthfully think to snip a hook?) also using the 360 rig out of the context to which it was origionally designed. I think that its use on smaller fish, high stock runs waters (for which it wasnt designed) is another reason why mouth damage may be encountered. Personally i think there are other pop up rigs out there that are just as effective.

 

 

 

This post tells us again, that the bent hook rig causes damage. It also implies that the 360 was designed to be a much safer version of the bent hook rig. He tells us that he thinks that a lot of damage is causes by lazy unhooking. This it's self is not fault of the rig, just the person using it. He said he thinks its probably been said it causes damage because its used on waters for where it was not designed, but doesnt really give a reason as to why it would cause damage.

I have asked for a REASON for why it causes damage. These posts are great, and  informative, but it does not at any point state why the rig it's self causes damage, and you yourself have had little imput more than stating that it causes damage, with little or no facts to back it up. 

 

 

 

i have quoted what ouch wrote, the truth is there yet you still argue, like always, you ALWAYS go out of your way to cause an argument, have done since you came onto this forum. either you really have no idea what your talking about and just wanna jump on the bandwagon? or you really dont care about the welfare of the fish? ouch has quoted exactly what these rigs can do so either disbelieve the post (the one you have been asking for) and carry on, or read it take it in and maybe just once think you might be wrong and might have been taught a valuble lesson about a damaging rig? the choice is yours really.

 

Where is this truth? Honestly, i have asked one simple question all the way through this thread, and that is for a REASON that it causes damage. You have failed to answer this, and now, because you cannot answer, you are attempting to suggest that because i don't agree with you don't care about the welfare of the fish?

 

I certainly don't know what bandwagon i could be on, but if its the bandwagon that doesn't believe things without being given facts, than yeah im sat right up front driving the thing. 

 

You stated earlier in this thread i believe, that someone joined your water, was using the 360 rig, ad was causing mouth damage. All we can get from this FACT, is that someone was causing mouth damage. There is no fact you have stated as to why it must be the rig causing damage, and not the angler in question.

 

I have explained my reasons as to why i think it causes damage, because the eye of the hook gets caught in the landing net mesh. It is well documented that this is the reason that it causes damage. This can be avoided with a seamless hook, or a bit of shrink tube.

 

If you actually provide some facts, i will happily accept it causes damage for other reasons, but as to date you have not. 

[grangemilky]

its a totally safe rig to use mate,used to use it myself,had some proper carp on it aswell ,i would say that 95% of the fish i caught on it were hooked at least 2 inches back in the bottom of the mouth and bang centre,also don't think the man that invented it would have used it if it was dangerous to the fish seeing he's in the public eye alot(dave lane)

 

 

Theobeeus I understand what you are saying but I have not had any trouble with this rig,I enjoy fishing and would not use anything to harm the fish,

 

 

I use a 360. Better than the chod imo. Never caused any more damage than the initial puncture wound on all sizes.

 

 

I fail to see how fixing a swivel to a hook can cause horrific damage! I use this method to balance my floating plastic sweet corn on my rig. I've never had a problem with fish conservation.

How about you scaling your broom handle down - it'll work wonders.

 

 

Ive used this rig for 9+ yrs and never caused that damage.witch hunt and chinese whispers

[kevtaylor]

Without reading all this stuff, to me it seems pretty obvious that it is due to the typical hook pattern used, when used on a 360 I would imagine that this exaggerates the bad properties of the hook more.

 

Regardless of rig it is known fact that LS Nailers, Fox 5's or whatever version you use can cause nasty damage to the mouths of smaller fish.

 

It is known that they are big fish hooks full stop - that's accepted by most people.  I used LS Nailers for years with no problem until I landed a mid double one day, small for the venue - well the mouth and later body damage was shocking - like a can opener ripping through the mouth from side to side in a zig-zag. until it came out, went back in under the throat and continued to rip down the body.

 

Now I will only use the pattern on proper specimen waters, where there are no soft mouthed stockies.

 

Must you see that for yourself before you accept it?

[hoorayhenri]

Never tried a long shank can opener - cant see why for the life of me why you did! It appears we've moved  away from the swivel to blaming the hook pattern! I'm ok with that as I've never used long shanks - my conscience is clear,however I note that you use them  and not knowing how big the fish is until landed smacks of double standards. x

[salokcinnodrog]

 

 

hoorayhenri Posted Yesterday, 09:12 PM

 

 

Never tried a long shank can opener - cant see why for the life of me why you did! It appears we've moved  away from the swivel to blaming the hook pattern! I'm ok with that as I've never used long shanks - my conscience is clear,however I note that you use them  and not knowing how big the fish is until landed smacks of double standards.

 

Not necessarily true, or even knowing what you are fishing for.

 

As for a can opener, I know what Kev means, there are the can openers with rotary/butterfly handles, but there are those that you push through the lid, and then work round by cutting (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_opener  )

 

A lake in Essex I fish, I managed to catch a carp that took over an hour to land, if pressed and I had lost it, I would have sworn I had lost one of the largest fish in the lake; as it was it only turned out to be just 20lb, yet I have managed to land some of the big 20's and 30's from the lake in 10minutes.

 

At the same time, the vast majority of the fish in the lake are 20lb+, yet in one session, I managed to find a pod of smaller double figure fish. I wasn't fishing for them, they turned up in my swim, and I couldn't stop catching them, 3 fish between 14 and 19lb, and then one over 30.

 

Now hook pattern wise, we know that longshanks, and bent hooks can be dangerous, so adding an additional swivel to a longshank hook smacks of extra risk. Not only is the rig mechanics changed, but also the likelihood of the swivel getting caught up in the landing net, putting extra pressure on the mouth of the fish. If they rip normally during the fight, there is the additional risk of the swivel and the landing net meeting, which may put even more on the mouth of the carp.

[hoorayhenri]

I agree with you on long shank hooks, no matter what they are connected to they may cause harm by double lipping. I've yet to see it on carp but go along with the theory as I've caught many greedy small roach double lipped. As for the mechanics changing who's to say its not for the best? The swivel getting caught -possible as would a crimp or large shot.   As I said earlier I don't use long shanks on a 360 or in general use. From what I have  read on here the guys who use it appear to be quite knowledgeable and have the utmost respect for the fish they catch. 

Edited May 10, 2014 by hoorayhenri