Homemade particle

[Lumeymorris]

Guys I wanna try getting on the particle a cooking/soaking it myself but a little unsure as I've never done it before. So I thought ill go for the cheaper easier option and got myself some maize pigeon conditioner and vitalin but am I right in thinking that the maize gets soaked for 24hours and boilies for 30mins and the pigeon conditioner just needs to be soaked 24hours is this right?

 

Also any recommendations on choice of flavours/oils to add I was thinking off adding some hemp oil and some of the liquid that is the same flavour as my boilies as I don't want to get carried away with putting to many different flavours in

[Golden Paws]

I've got a couple of old pressure cookers that I use to cook up my particles. I make up a dry mix of pigeon conditioner and hemp (roughly 2:1) and add enough to cover about a quarter of the pan. Fill to about 2/3 with water and leave for 24 hours. It will swell up and if the water level above the particles is less than 3 inches, add some more water. Next the important bit - cook it outside on a gas burner. Do not even attempt to cook it indoors or else your significant other/mum will not be impressed! When the pressure cooker is singing, turn down the gas and give it a 15 minute simmer. I then turn off the gas and leave it in the boiling pan for 24 hours and normally plan to take it out it to co-incide with a trip. When poured into a bucket, you can add salt, don't add it before or else the hemp won't split. I normally then add a kilo of frozen sweetcorn to the bucket and it's done.

Maize is a hard bait and I normally pour boiling water into the pan to pre-soak it to give it a kick start. Again, leave 24 hours, boil and simmer for 15 to 30 minutes. When it is done, test it by squeezing between your finger and thumb. If it doesn't crush, it's too hard and is liable to swell in a fish's stomach and could kill it. I've added mollasses to corn (available from farm shops or horse supplies) and freezing it really draws in the flavour.

I have somtimes added hemp oil to the mix in the summer but don't really think it makes a huge difference.

[yonny]

PARTICLE PREPARATION GUIDELINES

Thanks to www.ccmoore.com for the following table:

Particle, Pre-soak minimum (hours), Boil/Simmer (minutes) 
TIGER NUTS 24 30 
MINI TIGER NUTS 24 30 
JUMBO TIGER NUTS 24 30 
CHICK PEAS 12-18 30 
HEMP SEED 24 Until kernels split 
LARGE HEMP SEED 24 Until kernels split 
TARES 12-18 30 
MAPLE PEAS 12-18 30 
MILO 6 30 
FRENCH MAIZE 24 30 
BUCK WHEAT 6 10 
GRADED WHEAT 6 15 
GRADED BARLEY 6 15 
PEANUT KERNELS 24 30 
ADZUKI BEANS 24 30 
WHOLE BRAZILS 24 30 
BROKEN BRAZILS 12-18 30 
HARICOT BEANS 12-18 30 
RED KIDNEY BEANS 12-18 30 
PINTO BEANS 12-18 30 
SOYA BEANS 12-18 30 
BIRD MIXES * 6 15 
MAIZE 12-18 30 
RED MAIZE 24 30 
SWEET LUPINS 24 30 

*bird seed mixes must not contain peanuts, these may be hazardous to the fish.


NOTES

1. Hemp - during certain times of the year, when hemp becomes difficult to split, follow the above process and then wash it with fresh water, pour boiling water back onto it and leave it to soak in a bucket or pail until it splits (maybe a further 24-48hrs). Don’t panic it will split! 

2. When any product is boiled or heat treated the molecular structure and nutritional profile (including attraction properties) are denatured and damaged. This means that the less boiling time required to make the particles suitable for use, the better. However, it is vital to ensure particle baits are correctly prepared to avoid fish damage. Therefore, pre-soak particles for longer than usual, making required boiling times shorter.

3. To improve attraction properties, leave the boiled particles to soak and partly ferment in their naturally occurring sugars that remain in the boiling water. After several days certain particles will start to form a caramelising liquid that makes the final particle much more attractive.

4. Tiny particles such as hemp, wheat, barley, dari, rapeseed, or mixes of tiny birdseeds, can also be prepared by putting in a lidded bucket or coolbox overnight, with boiling water added.

5. Peanuts MUST be human grade, non-human grade nuts may contain the Aflotoxin fungus, which KILLS FISH. If in doubt, don't use them, or buy peanuts from the Supermarket still in their shells.

6. Maximising soaking times and minimising boil times will result in better nutrient levels in the finished particles. Most particles can be soaked for up to a week before boiling,

[salokcinnodrog]

Do not put salt on hemp as you soak it or it will not split. Add it to the water after boiling.

[Lumeymorris]

Cheers guys but another thing I keep seeing is people using cool boxes and boiling water from the kettle to cook the particle and leaving it to soak over night which seems a lot less hassle but is it as simple as it looks or does it have it limitations??

 

[Golden Paws]

Yes. You need to simmer particles to soften them and take on water. If you leave them too hard, they can swell in the fishes stoamach and cause death - don't do it!

[salokcinnodrog]

6 hours ago, Lumeymorris said:

Cheers guys but another thing I keep seeing is people using cool boxes and boiling water from the kettle to cook the particle and leaving it to soak over night which seems a lot less hassle but is it as simple as it looks or does it have it limitations??

 

It has limitations.

You can only prepare small seeds in this manner, pigeon conditioner, chicken corn feed. If it contains any seeds larger than hemp it must be boiled as well.

The other thing is that just soaking these small particles is not as attractive to the fish as soaking and boiling.

 

[Lumeymorris]

I’m probably going to just boil them as I’m not making to much but do you need to add flavours and oils? As I’ve watch a few videos and they all add there liquids but for now I want to keep things cheap and use stuff out the super market but what ones do you go for I’ll most likely grab some hemp oil but are there any others out there that work really well preferably some that will complement a fish meal hook bait as that’s what I’ll be fishing with it on one rod at least 

 

[salokcinnodrog]

1 hour ago, Lumeymorris said:

I’m probably going to just boil them as I’m not making to much but do you need to add flavours and oils? As I’ve watch a few videos and they all add there liquids but for now I want to keep things cheap and use stuff out the super market but what ones do you go for I’ll most likely grab some hemp oil but are there any others out there that work really well preferably some that will complement a fish meal hook bait as that’s what I’ll be fishing with it on one rod at least 

 

You really don't need to add anything to particles, they work after soaking and boiling au natural. Adding things in is a current fashion. I can honestly say chilli hemp has caught me no more than standard hemp, soaked and boiled pigeon conditioner catches no less than pigeon conditioner soaked with salt!

 

If I add anything to particles, it is usually at the 'groundbaiting' stage, as I mix Vitalin in to ball it or spod it in. With the Vitalin I add molasses, maybe a bit of condensed milk.

 

Particles work with ANY  bait, be it birdfood or fishmeal or any other base mix type. They even work as a hookbait in their own right. Stick some particles in a wrap of stocking or tights, tie it off and attach to hair.

One thing I will say, sometimes fish will get pre-occupied on particles, and avoid boilies, I have seen it happen.

[Lumeymorris]

So with vitalin am I right in thinking by adding this to the mix will create a cloud?? Or isit just a cheaper version of groundbait??

and that’s a good idea with the particles in tights although I may try the salt trick to make it pva friendly

 

[salokcinnodrog]

10 hours ago, Lumeymorris said:

So with vitalin am I right in thinking by adding this to the mix will create a cloud?? Or isit just a cheaper version of groundbait??

and that’s a good idea with the particles in tights although I may try the salt trick to make it pva friendly

 

Vitalin is a dog food, but this dog food is basically the perfect groundbait. In its own right it makes excellent groundbait to fish the Method. It is perfect to ball up and throw in.

 

You can pour prepared particles into it, mix it together well, so the Vitalin only just takes on a bit of juice,  leave for 30 minutes or so, then make particle/groundbait balls to throw or catapult in. You may have to play around until you get it right, but you will soon find out how much Vitalin to add to particles.

It does cloud up, and breaks down on the bottom from a ball to form a carpet.

[Machali]

Hello guys!

Some weeks ago i  scheduled a session with a friend, filled a bucket with corn to soak it before boil to pre-bait the swim. We had to re-schedule, and i forgot the bucket full of corn. So it is soaking since october 13!

Should i take it to the garbage and prepare a new bucket, or boil that same corn? 

I prepare my own particles (corn, wheat, hemp seed, bird food) respecting the preparation guide posted by yonny, but never leaved it for so much time, and i don't know if the quality of it can be compromised.

[Golden Paws]

1 hour ago, Machali said:

Should i take it to the garbage and prepare a new bucket, or boil that same corn? 

Try the nose test. If it reeks and look rancid, bin it, if not should be OK.

[Machali]

30 minutes ago, Golden Paws said:

Try the nose test. If it reeks and look rancid, bin it, if not should be OK.

I'll do the test! Thank you mate!

Other question: As we know, carp has a really sensitive smell sense. How should i wash the sour smell from it?

I don't like to use cleaning products on my bait buckets because of chemicals used in those products

[emmcee]

who says rancid particle doesnt work? a well regarded angler i spoke to at a show once told me how he leaves his maize for up to and over 10 months at a time. that must smell disgusting, but he swore by it. 

[Machali]

29 minutes ago, emmcee said:

who says rancid particle doesnt work? a well regarded angler i spoke to at a show once told me how he leaves his maize for up to and over 10 months at a time. that must smell disgusting, but he swore by it. 

I read somewhere on internet that fermented particles works really nice, but rotten particles can make fish move away from the swim for weeks...

My bucket has a bit of mold in

[carpepecheur]

On 21/08/2019 at 17:56, Golden Paws said:

Yes. You need to simmer particles to soften them and take on water. If you leave them too hard, they can swell in the fishes stoamach and cause death - don't do it!

I am afraid I disagree with this statement. Firstly, a carp doesn’t have a stomach. Secondly  the carp has Pharyngeal teeth to grind down food. And finally how much expansion would kill a carp?

 

My comments relate only to maize as I use raw maize a lot.

 

I find it difficult to find out how long it takes for maize to pass through the digestive system. My best guess from what I have read is 24 hours. It is very simple to measure how much maize expands after a 24 hours soaking in water at lake temperature. In my test it is not very much.

 

Do you have any evidence for your statement?

Edited November 10, 2019 by carpepecheur

[salokcinnodrog]

15 hours ago, Machali said:

I read somewhere on internet that fermented particles works really nice, but rotten particles can make fish move away from the swim for weeks...

My bucket has a bit of mold in

 

16 hours ago, emmcee said:

who says rancid particle doesnt work? a well regarded angler i spoke to at a show once told me how he leaves his maize for up to and over 10 months at a time. that must smell disgusting, but he swore by it. 

 

17 hours ago, Golden Paws said:

Try the nose test. If it reeks and look rancid, bin it, if not should be OK.

 

18 hours ago, Machali said:

Hello guys!

Some weeks ago i  scheduled a session with a friend, filled a bucket with corn to soak it before boil to pre-bait the swim. We had to re-schedule, and i forgot the bucket full of corn. So it is soaking since october 13!

Should i take it to the garbage and prepare a new bucket, or boil that same corn? 

I prepare my own particles (corn, wheat, hemp seed, bird food) respecting the preparation guide posted by yonny, but never leaved it for so much time, and i don't know if the quality of it can be compromised.

I remember a Shaun Harrison article where he tipped some 'rancid' particle away, the fish and geese cleaned it up.

Now personally, when it comes to my chicken corn, I actually prefer it slightly off, or left for a few days. I soak it for a few days before boiling it, then once boiled leave it for a couple of days.

If it has been soaking, I would actually boil it as it stands!

[Golden Paws]

Yes, poor choice of terminology on my part, fish don't have a stomach but they do have a long digestion tube that is concertinaed in their body. This makes it easier for food to get trapped and especially if it were to swell. Peanuts are banned on many fisheries because of the problem as well as tiger nuts (which aren't technically a nut!)

The time it takes for a food item to pass through a carp is dependent on the water temperature and probably it's solubility in the digestion tract juices. Things like maggots and worms are probably easily broken down whereas harder baits will take longer. A well known angler told me once how he watched chub taking sweetcorn like there was no tomorrow, they passed it and swam in a circle to savour it again! Having had 3 kids, I can confirm that if you feed them sweetcorn one day, the next you have a yellow speckled nappy!

All I would say if that we have a responsibility towards the fish we are trying to catch and should tempt them on food that is attractive and beneficial to them. Deliberately feeding them food items that could cause discomfort of even death should be avoided at all costs. 

[carpepecheur]

On 10/11/2019 at 09:56, Golden Paws said:

Yes, poor choice of terminology on my part, fish don't have a stomach but they do have a long digestion tube that is concertinaed in their body. This makes it easier for food to get trapped and especially if it were to swell. Peanuts are banned on many fisheries because of the problem as well as tiger nuts (which aren't technically a nut!)

The time it takes for a food item to pass through a carp is dependent on the water temperature and probably it's solubility in the digestion tract juices. Things like maggots and worms are probably easily broken down whereas harder baits will take longer. A well known angler told me once how he watched chub taking sweetcorn like there was no tomorrow, they passed it and swam in a circle to savour it again! Having had 3 kids, I can confirm that if you feed them sweetcorn one day, the next you have a yellow speckled nappy!

All I would say if that we have a responsibility towards the fish we are trying to catch and should tempt them on food that is attractive and beneficial to them. Deliberately feeding them food items that could cause discomfort of even death should be avoided at all costs. 

Sorry Goldie, the stomach comment was an easy cheap shot and not germane to the discussion.

 

I should explain that I used to be a surveyor and have a hang-up about measurement. I did a small simple experiment. I filled a glass with water then poured in some maize until it was level with the rim. I waited 17 hours and observed how much it expanded. I scraped off the corn which had expanded above the rim and weighed it at 56 grams. I then weighed the total amount of maize and it weighed 548 grams. I conclude that the volume has expanded by 10%. I also observed that most of the expansion occurred in the first 6 hours.

 

Now if we assume that the carp did not grind down the maize with its pharyngeal teeth before swallowing and it ate the maize straight away before it had time to start absorbing water, and that it continues to expand during the feeding period as digestion takes place, the absolute worst expansion it can experience is 10%.

 

I am no biologist but I feel fairly sure that any expansion of maize after a carp has swallowed it is not going to kill it or cause any serious problems.

[Golden Paws]

The following guidelines will help to ensure that any particles you use are safe to fish.  Dry particles and seeds need to be denatured with a combination of soaking and boiling to make them completely safe.   

MAIZE -Pre-soak for 24 hours then bring to the boil and simmer for 30 minutes.  

Taken from this page; https://hinders.co.uk/pages/particle-preparation-guide

Hinders know far more about particles than I do and I'm happy to take their advice.

Your assessment may be correct but  there is a risk that you could be wrong. Unfortunately fish have died because of problems with swelling, I seem to remember that a large Common called Benson was found dead and the suspicion was that it was caused by swelling and constriction of the digestive tube after an autopsy. I have used maize in the past but always gave it (a highly unscientific) chew after it was cooked to make sure it was softish as it is rock hard when dry.

[carpepecheur]

I believe Hinders is a supplier of bait for carp. Would you not think that they have a vested interest in making baits seem more complicated than they need to be?

You said “Unfortunately fish have died because of problems with swelling”. I have found no direct positive evidence of this (plenty of speculation). Do you have a reference?

Just for the record, the owner of the lake where Benson died found some uncooked tiger nuts nearby and suggested Benson was poisoned. The taxidermist who prepared Benson for mounting found no trace of particles and suggested the cause was gravidity as he saw evidence of spawning. I am not aware of any formal autopsy being performed.

I have no desire to encourage harm to any animal but I do like to make informed decisions.

[yonny]

It's about risk innit. It's been known since day dot that particles need to be prepared correctly to eliminate all risk to the fish. It's your call to ignore that risk. In the UK if we even thought about using unprepared particles, on ANY water, we'd be banned for life.

On a side note, even prepared particles aint that good for them. Imo the least we can do is try to improve digestibility through decent preparation. At least that way they get the benefit from the limited nutritional content on offer.

 

[kevtaylor]

I think you need to look at how much tiger nuts swell when soaked and boiled - because I'd guess a minimum 4 times the original size and I'm being conservative on that.

If food swelled to 4 - 8 times its original size I'd be in trouble.

[carpepecheur]

3 hours ago, yonny said:

It's about risk innit. It's been known since day dot that particles need to be prepared correctly to eliminate all risk to the fish. It's your call to ignore that risk. In the UK if we even thought about using unprepared particles, on ANY water, we'd be banned for life.

 

 

That is exactly right, it is all about risk and, as you pointed out, you and I fish completely different types of water. I have assed the risk. I have actually measured the worst case scenario when using maize. I have scoured the imternet without success for any properly scrutinised, scientific evidence of raw maize causing damage to fish. If anyone has any links I am definately open to changing my mind. Since the day dot, people have been worshipping various gods. That does not make me religious.

 

"Put and take" lakes are not my cup of tea but if someone has spent vast amounts of time and money establishing a fishery I guess they are entitled to make up any rules they want which they think will protect their investment.That does not make them right.

3 hours ago, yonny said:

On a side note, even prepared particles aint that good for them. Imo the least we can do is try to improve digestibility through decent preparation. At least that way they get the benefit from the limited nutritional content on offer.

That is a different argument. If you want to feed your fish then I guess HNV baits are the way to go but they cost money and , as an impovorished pensioner, I am happier with 25p per kilo maize. The fact that it does not quickly meet the nutritional requirements of a carp is a plus point as far as I am concerned. It means the fish need to eat a lot more bait to get what they need from it. Getting fish to feed and keeping them going is, in my opinion, a sensible tactic. I groundbait regularly and in quite large amounts but have never seen bait go rotten or witnessed distressed fish afterwards.

 

I realise Yonny, that I am paddling a lone canoe. I am not trying to change anyone's tactics. I am simply amd constantly looking for information to test my personal conclusions.