salokcinnodrog

I'm not sure I agree, as I have seen fresh baits left in (heavily fished) areas, and fresh baits eaten in areas where the carp don't think they are being fished for. At Taverham, I spent a lot of time on the water over 10 years, and you could see the fish leave baits in those heavily fished spots, until they had been in the water for a couple of days, at which point they would start clearing them up. The same with the local river, carp would leave sweetcorn on a particular spot until it had started to go grey, they would swim past it, pause, and then only after a couple of days would they come in to eat it. A couple of mates and I spent a fair amount of time there walking the whole stretch, and there is no way, as the carp could swim the whole stretch in the time we walked it (and did almost every day in summer), that we wouldn't see them, so observation was pretty easy. Strangely enough, we didn't see the bream and the tench there, but we knew that they were about as they were often the first fish into particular spots when we fished. The carp would also avoid particular features, one being a gravel bank that rose up from the river bed. On the occasions I have left hookbaits in the water for a few days, it is often the bigger fish from a water that take it. That is I have spotted larger fish in the spot, and watched them 'control' the area, making smaller fish avoid the spot or area, and then take the hookbait after a couple of days, when my apparent danger is nil (not many anglers leave a bait out for so long without recasting). I'm sure I am not the only person who has noticed this as Ken Townley wrote about it, and it is a tactic that Albert Romp employed in the past.

Sorry, you get the same easily copied pics I use on a couple of threads:

I've let this ride, and not said anything about the topic, although I had thoughts, but was trying to marshal them into some sort of order so I could say what I think. Washed out baits may work on a couple of levels; The bait has been in the water for a couple of days, so it is safe to eat and not a pressure point that the carp feel they are eating freshly put in bait. If the pressure is so high that they don't eat baits that haven't been in the water a couple of day, then older 'washed out' baits may be the ones that are safe. It may also be that they would eat fresh baits if the amount of bait going in was enough so that they felt safe, whereas, they are leaving the new baits as they simply aren't safe. It may also be that fresh baits could possibly be overloaded with flavours, and at introduction levels are so high that they repel! I used to feel that on many high pressure weekend syndrome lakes, the fish do leave the baits introduced on Friday until Sunday at the earliest, and those that catch are those that are using washed out baits, small stringers, or even single hookbaits, different from those fishing over the large amount of spodded baits. If you prebait with enough bait that the carp are comfortable eating it, then I don't think that washed out baits are an advantage, and for my weekend trips, I do try to be different from the 'norm'. However, I do also think that fresh baits can be a danger to fish, and so I often use an older hookbait. I may start the trip with a hookbait, and use that same hookbait for a couple of days if it doesn't get pulled off the hair (fish or deterioration, which can be reduced by meshing hookbait ). I also bait up with fresh baits as my freebies. The hookbait is 'safe', the freebies are fresh and dangerous, the hookbait catches 'em. Also it can be worth leaving a bait in place for a couple of days, again, you have to have confidence that it will stay on the hook/hair. A few years ago, this washed out bait thing, I watched the carp ignoring sweetcorn that was fresh, until it had started to go a bit grey after a couple of days. The tench and the bream would eat it fresh (until a few were caught on it), and then they would avoid the area for a few days, (tench especially), but for the carp to take sweetcorn, it had to have been introduced a couple of days previously. My main belief is simply that baits get left over a weekend, due to weekend syndrome, and a washed out bait may be better, but if fishing normally (midweek), pre-bait as much as possible, and you shouldn't need a washed out bait, except at the weekend when the pressure is usually highest

Mainline braids often have additional 'ingredients' like Kevlar added to make them more tougher, and can actually be more abrasive or cutting along the fishes flanks than a softer hooklink braid, although there are a couple of hooklink braids that I avoid as they are so darn 'sharp'. For hooklinks I would only ever use a specific hooklink braid, and I haven't come away from the Kryston stable for them for years; If it ain't broke don't fix it, and Kryston has not let me down. They may be more expensive than other manufacturers, but when a spool of Merlin lasts 4 or 5 years (and I do tie a lot of rigs), and can be used neat or as part of a combi-rig, then I stick to what I know works. The only Kryston coated braid I don't feel comfortable with, is actually Jackal. I found, (me personally), that I was breaking the coating when I tied my knots, and so they would go a bit limp as the coating was damaged. As for coated braids, they are stiffer until you strip them, which can improve resistance to abrasion, cutting and rubbing against snags etc, and possibly for the carp. When it comes to braids, we use higher breaking strains than the mainline, simply because some are so thin that if used in lower strains and diameters, would cut the fishes mouth, so using the finest may not always be best.

Sounds like a good water. A method I know works with worms on the hook is the float and lift method. Slightly overdepth it will work for perch, tench and carp. I can remember one gentlemen on here used to fish like this a lot stalking his carp, fished with a centre pin he really had a few good fish. Obviously don't fish a pin unless you're used to it, but you do have really good control. As for hooklinks, I normally use 'stuff' as well. I keep a spool or 2 in the tackle bag and some spare Drennan Super Specialists just for it.

Also, you don't have to use shrink tubing, a small silicon tubing will work the same, and can also be used to slide down the shank and hold the hair in place. As a rule of thumb, if I do have a hair down the hookshank, then I tend to have it leave the shank around halfway between the point and the end of the barb. It may be worth having a hunt for the pic I put up about hair and hook separation from the eye, the shank and the bend.

I must admit that I have often have a flappy hair, being as it is attached to a rig ring that slides freely up and down the hook shank Like Tim says, I play with hair length dependant on where I hook my fish, and hookpulls. Edge of mouth, or hookpull, lengthen it. Deep in mouth then shorten it. Right in centre of bottom lip, perfect length. (the reason for attaching the hair to sliding ring, it means I can play with hair length without cutting rigs apart) I buy my shrink tubing from Maplins usually, the smallest, can't remember what size as I've lost the packet. I don't care that it has tiny printing on the side as I'm sure the carp can't read what it says when its shrunk down. I prefer Gardner Muggas as my hooks, but Drennan Super Specialists, and many other hooks, can at times be improved with shrink tubing, even hooks with incurved or inturned eyes, as occasionally you still miss some takes with a knotless knot.

It has been replaced a few times, out of my own pocket, It is my first choice of mainline, I don't even think of buying any other now, although I do still replace it at least once or twice a year. Habit that I can't have any line on my reels for more than a year

I brought this thread up again after realising that I have now been using the Pro-Carp (the original as it was sent to me) for a few years now. It is my first choice of line, and over the past few years I have put a number of fish on the bank with it, from long and short casts at Nazeing, in clear and coloured water, and over gravel bars and after being fragged by Crayfish. The largest fish I have caught using it is 33lb, a fish that took me round a few tree roots, but I have caught numerous others from the other lagoons on the complex. A better line than many more of the more expensive lines available.

It is not just the money from ejecting the lead on every take, but litter. If you walked down the road, and every 100metres or so you threw a lead away it would be classed as littering. Now equate that to fishing, every time you lose eject a lead on the take you are effectively littering the lakebed. It is not just the lead you are ejecting either, it is a plastic coating, usually a copper insert for the loop and a swivel which is some other metal, or for just an inline, the plastic coating and insert, which are elements which do NOT break down in the environment in a hurry. Years ago, when my leads were dead, bashed, cratered, pitted etc, and beyond even marker rod use, I would give them to a friend of mine. He would then melt them down, and then use the lead for new leads. The copper insert would go into our copper pile for scrap and melting down. Effectively, our green and pleasant society has forgotten how to recycle, despite the various coloured nice big bins we have. Glass bottles, deposit for the children to take back to the local shop, or milk bottles every day, cleaned, re-used recycled. Tin foil, taken to the local shop, and a payment made for the amount (and the occasional stone when we wanted to bilk, sorry bulk out ) This 'fad' for apparent rig safety and ejecting the lead is simply that, a fad, as tackle manufacturers have discovered that they need to make money, and more (and more and more) tackle manufacturers mean the slices of cake that they eat are getting smaller. Rig safety is not rig safety as it stands any more, many many items of tackle are sold which are dangerous to the fish (don't give me that sticking hooks thingy argument), ready made leadcore leaders in inline and pendant set-ups, even helicopter ones. They are sold, not because they are safe, but because tackle manufacturers have discovered a market for people who will buy them. They may be the least dangerous available, or properly manufactured, but are not fish friendly in the event of a crack off. It is not just one manufacturer, sorry, it is many, in fact just about any tackle manufacturer sells a ready made system. As I said in my previous post, all you need is a lead attached to the line, preferably on a John Roberts Lead attachment , a swivel or quick link and your hooklink and hook at the end of it. The original innovator I think was John Roberts, many tackle manufacturers have ideas copied from him, but these items from his brand are not fashionable at the moment, but are often the best for tackle. Just look at this page of John Roberts tackle, the tackle shop chosen was picked totally at random, so sorry to any other shop: http://www.thetackle-shop.co.uk/section121/John-Roberts-Products.html Items that will work now as they did 20+ years ago, and many better than some of the more modern names.

Korda originally used the term 'Safe Zone' I think it was; not as safe in terms of angler use, but 'safe' for the fish to feed in the area, i.e. the tackle was camouflaged, hidden or difficult to see. It did not in any way make it safe for the angler to use it, and some of the products (leaders etc), made it not at all safe in terms of breakages, the risk of fish towing leads around and the potential for tethered fish. Having recovered a snapped off Safezone leader, attached to many metres of line, with a plastic bait on the end, and a lead that would not release all jammed up with weed, it definitely does not make it safe! As others have said, my view is that using helicopters, you need the lead on the end of a leader system, so that the leader does not fold in the middle preventing the rig being ejected at all. A Heli-safe system will only be safe if not using a leader, but cannot be used where there is any snag, weed or anything that could catch up on the line, andf the rig must be able to be ejected. Again, I do NOT like ejecting the lead, unless I absolutely have to, to prevent a fish becoming snagged up. In most cases I don't need to drop the lead on the take, and even in weed, using an inline lead there is often no need to drop the lead, even more so if using zipp shaped inlines as the weed will pass over it. I understand that tackle manufacturers have a need to make money, its a business world out there. Problem is that as anglers, you only really need a lead on the line that can be ejected safely in a break off or snag, attached to a hooklink with a hook and bait on the end, and to fish that safely, you don't need to buy loads of tackle, yet tackle manufacturers wouldn't exist if that is all we bought

It's not new, been around as long as the hills and mountains of the world, and is from my original post, either with or without tubing dependant on snags or not:

Well I was going to keep it quiet, but I queried about the Pro-Carp I heard was being released, and Richard Gardner sent me some to give an honest appraisal of. In the packing were 2 packets of Gardner Muggas in the sizes I use. I was sent those as samples, nice, Thanks, and have bought those products since. By the same token, I have been sent products by other manufacturers, that I found awful, wrote back telling them why, and not heard from since

I've read a bit of this thread, and seem to have the same thing to say as most others; I have faith in Gamakatsu GP 204's Gardner Muggas Kamasan B175's for floater (and chub) fishing Drennan Super Specialists, and Specimens The Gardner hooks are probably some of the best I have used, and I was put onto them by Richard Gardner himself; although I very rarely follow tackle hype from most manufacturers (especially NOT Korda, don't know why ) I have tested others, and although some are good, (and some bad), I go back to what I KNOW works

Or ask nicely and I will send you a bundle of 2 fire extinguisher tags, which make good boilie stops. Another way to mount the mixer is to tie a uni knot loop at the end of the hooklink line (only assuming you use a hooklink), put the bait in the loop, pull tight, and then knotless knot it tight to the hoo, then attach to mainline. As the mixer expands when wet it fits in very tightly, and is then easy enough to change when you need to change the bait.

It is the hookpulls that to me makes me think the hair was too short, so lengthening it you have gotten them to take a bit more confidently. Again, on the extreme edge of the mouth, I would possibly add a little bit more length until hooks were firmly embedded centre of bottom lip. The other way possibly to get better hookholds could actually be to feed a bit more, so the fish are feeding a bit more confidently as well. I have always considered in my mind that confident feeding fish don't necessarily inspect, or suck and blow hookbaits as much as those that are not feeding comfortably, so increasing your groundbait (particles groundbait or whatever background feed), may lead them to be more confident. If they really do start feeding comfortably though, and get pre-occupied, then shortening the hair may be the answer. I know, blooming circles again! Beanz makes a fair point in hook and hair position, and I think I have mentioned it in the past? Remember the pic: Where the hair leaves the hook; From thejust below the eye as KD, then the hook may well be going in point downwards, and as it is blown out, then automatically hooks the lip. From the eye itself, may be going in backwards, and be blown out, and from the bend of the hook, can be blown out backwards, so the point is still facing the throat, no chance of a hookhold. So my preference has been for the hair to leave the shank of the hook, opposite the barb/point of the hook.

With running leads, I don't normally worry about rig length, but do worry about hair length. I've used 3oz leads for years, it is what I got comfortable using, having to cast a set distance and using the lead to get that far, then adding on or cutting down on PVA additions weight (how many boilies on a stringer, or how big a PVA bag/mesh to get the casting distance right, along with the reel line clip, to prevent overcasting. I cast out, then make sure that I get as much slack as possible, and the indicators at maximum drop, the line pulling through a tube (in the water) on the take, until it eventually bangs in tight onto the line clip or baitrunner. I don't strike, just lift into the fish and start playing fish on the backwind, with a pause (not intentional), as I switch the anti reverse off and then the baitrunner clicks off as I start to wind. About the only time I don't use running leads is when physical conditions are so strong that I can't, undertow and the like. Even with running leads and the line as low to the lakebed as possible, you can avoid most drifting weed.

If the rig works, it works! I must admit though, I would have tested it to destruction before I actually thought about casting it out for a carp... It is far more important to get the rig in the right place than worry about whether the rig works or not, and even more important to get the feeding situation right, so that the carp aren't testing every hookbait. Years ago, I came up with the theory of a doubled over spliced hooklink section (also helped by a product called Octosplice), using Kryston Merlin (but it does also work with most of their uncoated braids), to a stiffer section above in a Multi rig style. A dental floss hair on the shank section of the splice. I needle knotted the stiffer boom section (amnesia) through the spliced Merlin.

Not necessarily true, or even knowing what you are fishing for. As for a can opener, I know what Kev means, there are the can openers with rotary/butterfly handles, but there are those that you push through the lid, and then work round by cutting (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_opener ) A lake in Essex I fish, I managed to catch a carp that took over an hour to land, if pressed and I had lost it, I would have sworn I had lost one of the largest fish in the lake; as it was it only turned out to be just 20lb, yet I have managed to land some of the big 20's and 30's from the lake in 10minutes. At the same time, the vast majority of the fish in the lake are 20lb+, yet in one session, I managed to find a pod of smaller double figure fish. I wasn't fishing for them, they turned up in my swim, and I couldn't stop catching them, 3 fish between 14 and 19lb, and then one over 30. Now hook pattern wise, we know that longshanks, and bent hooks can be dangerous, so adding an additional swivel to a longshank hook smacks of extra risk. Not only is the rig mechanics changed, but also the likelihood of the swivel getting caught up in the landing net, putting extra pressure on the mouth of the fish. If they rip normally during the fight, there is the additional risk of the swivel and the landing net meeting, which may put even more on the mouth of the carp.

I never caused damage with The Bent Hook rig, yet I accept that mouth damage was caused by its use. I didn't use it for small fish, so maybe it wasn't an issue for me, yet I will no longer use it. The same goes for the 360 rig, it can potentially cause damage when used in the wrong situation, for the 'wrong' small fish, so therefore I will not use it. I spent a lot of time examining and experimenting the dangers of Leadcore; I wrote about it, I put the results up, yet others choose not to believe them, despite pictures of (what I think) are leadcore line damaged fish one with fresh marks along the flanks, so as with everything there are people who won't believe what is written unless they see it for themselves in reality, or will convince themselves it doesn't happen or will never happen to them, as in the case of the 360 rig. The simple answer is in many cases we confuse ourselves by fiddling and faffing looking at rigs when we should be looking at getting the fish feeding first

I'll try to keep you happy, Sorry Beza! no icons while on ipad

And had a good pike next cast?

I wonder how much mouth damage from some of these rigs is down to bad unhooking? I have no problems in cutting the hook, on the shank, just below the eye or as low as I can get, and then feeding the point through. The cut eye section will fall away with no problems. It is fiddling and faffing and forcing the hook free (with any rig) that can cause (additional) damage. Then dose up the hookmark, or marks with Klinik or similar hookpoint antiseptic treatment I would much rather tie on a fresh hooklink, rig or hook, than expect to re-use the same one each time. Please don't get me wrong, I am very tight on hooks, and materials, if it is sharp enough, then to me it is good enough, but for the sake of NOT damaging a fish, I would far rather cut the hook or hooklink than be responsible for mouth damage. A good pair of wire/side cutters is an important item to have in the tackle box for that very reason. I think that it is long shank hooks that can be the cause of much mouth damage, especially in small fish, whatever pattern, Carp-R-Us Longshank Nailer, Fox Series 5, Ritchie MacDonald Z13 or PiggyBacks, whenever there is a chance of double hooking, and I think that many anglers are using fashionable rigs, without necessarily knowing or being able to think out the potential risks. It is not even their fault, but since Rob Maylin first published the Bent Hook Rig, it got used everywhere, and the same is true of the 360 rig.

Ok, there are some things that should be considered. The 360 rig has caused damage to fish, but it is in many cases that what is a big fish rig is used for small carp. An example of this is the Bent hook rig, widely advocated for big fish, and I used it for a few years. I don't remember causing any damage to fish, yet many did, but it was used almost everywhere, and some fishery managers and owners did see damage, and widespread publicity saw the long shank bent hooks banned. The 360 rig may be the same. As it potentially damages fish my concern means I will not use it. All of us should consider fish welfare, if you are an angler who just follows fashion, or articles, and don't actually think or concern yourself with trying to reduce risks and damage, then you shouldn't be fishing, Be that leaders, lead core, bent hooks, 360 or even fixed leads, you need to think and work out the safety aspects; don't follow fashion, or a famous angler just because he says what he uses, not all are safe.

In fact this may also help: