HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[elmoputney]

7 minutes ago, commonly said:

Krank

If you like a krank you will low these 😍

https://www.jprecisionhooks.co.uk/products/gapex-1

[elmoputney]

44 minutes ago, crusian said:

Thanks very much , Kev. 

At the moment I have one rod with a Ronnie , and the other with a multi rig so I can try different hook patterns ; the pattern I'm trying at the moment is a ESP Grip Rigger which has an out turned eye .

 

 

The krank type hooks are good with a Ronnie Rig, I've recently developed a love of these with the Ronnie, these are now pretty much all I use now, great hook holds so far. 

https://www.jprecisionhooks.co.uk/products/advanced-lgs

I also use avid D rig kickers as my go to Ronnie kicker, I like having the d rig to add a little more seperation between hook and bait (bit fiddly) and when I need to change hooks I now always file down the barb of the old hook to aid removing this 👍

[elmoputney]

That's pretty much my rig nowadays  👍

@crusian

Edited October 5, 2023 by elmoputney

[KINDFISHER]

10 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

Really in 25lb its really thick thats surprising.

I'd try a coated braid and just strip the hair, something like the ESP Tungsten Loaded thats fab 👍

Hi there, quick update - I have checked and I'm using the 20lb version of this hooklink.  

In which case why do they sell such a product and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.  Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods I have described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare.  I just cannot believe that I'm the only carp angler using 4oz leads, with a short supple hooklink, in a PVA bag - or am I ???

[KINDFISHER]

10 hours ago, elmoputney said:

Then it must be the braid with a heavy lead swinging about in front of its face I would say., try a soft coated braid and see if it still does it. 

Unfortunately a think that I must agree with you.  Can you recommend a soft coated braid ???

On a more sinister note, I fear that I am not the only carp angler in the UK using this method or indeed similar methods.  Based on my assumption, it must therefore be that lots of other carp anglers are suffering the same issue, but just do not think it's something to be addressed.  This could partly explain why we are seeing so many carp nowadays with damaged mouths.

Anyway, I will lighten my lead and use a different hooklink on my next trip out.  I will also experiment with dropping the lead for a short while and see if this helps.

 

[kevtaylor]

46 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

Hi there, quick update - I have checked and I'm using the 20lb version of this hooklink.  

In which case why do they sell such a product and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.  Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods I have described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare.  I just cannot believe that I'm the only carp angler using 4oz leads, with a short supple hooklink, in a PVA bag - or am I ???

I recommended ESP Tungsten Loaded, your not using that - its a coated braid and why I recommended it.

I dont use uncoated braids they are a tangle risk and offer little in the way of separation.

You asked for a supple braid I gave you one, its too thick for rig making for me - but seemed a good option for you, if you dont like it take it up with them ' not me 👍

If I wanted a supple braid I use Richworth Sourcerer, but you cant get that anymore - I have lots however! 👍

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, KINDFISHER said:

Unfortunately a think that I must agree with you.  Can you recommend a soft coated braid ???

On a more sinister note, I fear that I am not the only carp angler in the UK using this method or indeed similar methods.  Based on my assumption, it must therefore be that lots of other carp anglers are suffering the same issue, but just do not think it's something to be addressed.  This could partly explain why we are seeing so many carp nowadays with damaged mouths.

Anyway, I will lighten my lead and use a different hooklink on my next trip out.  I will also experiment with dropping the lead for a short while and see if this helps.

 

The esp tungsten soft is a good coated braid there are plenty out there though, 

I think it is something that is possibly overlooked tbh, I did a quick search and some lakes have banned uncoated braid,perhaps more should, 

[kevtaylor]

3 hours ago, KINDFISHER said:

Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods I have described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare.  I just cannot believe that I'm the only carp angler using 4oz leads, with a short supple hooklink, in a PVA bag - or am I ???

I wouldn't fish a short uncoated braid to a 4oz lead and not drop it.  Lead clip or drop off inline.

[KINDFISHER]

3 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

I recommended ESP Tungsten Loaded, your not using that - its a coated braid and why I recommended it.

I dont use uncoated braids they are a tangle risk and offer little in the way of separation.

You asked for a supple braid I gave you one, its too thick for rig making for me - but seemed a good option for you, if you dont like it take it up with them ' not me 👍

If I wanted a supple braid I use Richworth Sourcerer, but you cant get that anymore - I have lots however! 👍

Thanks, I'll give the ESP a go and up the braking strain of my supple hooklink as you suggested.

[KINDFISHER]

1 hour ago, elmoputney said:

The esp tungsten soft is a good coated braid there are plenty out there though, 

I think it is something that is possibly overlooked tbh, I did a quick search and some lakes have banned uncoated braid,perhaps more should, 

Thanks, I'll give the ESP a go.  I think that you're right in that this is an issue that is overlooked and needs to be addressed.  I was only using the 20lb (cheesewire I'll call it now) as it was the closest match to my 16lb braking strain mainline.  I would never have thought that such a product, produced by one of the biggest carp Kompanies, could cause so much damage to the very fish that we are meant to cherish and look after.  I'm really [censored]ed off that I've spent £15 on something that really shouldn't be on the shelves.

[kevtaylor]

1 minute ago, KINDFISHER said:

Thanks, I'll give the ESP a go.  I think that you're right in that this is an issue that is overlooked and needs to be addressed.  I was only using the 20lb (cheesewire I'll call it now) as it was the closest match to my 16lb braking strain mainline.  I would never have thought that such a product, produced by one of the biggest carp Kompanies, could cause so much damage to the very fish that we are meant to cherish and look after.  I'm really [censored]ed off that I've spent £15 on something that really shouldn't be on the shelves.

I wouldn't worry, I've spent 100s on pop-ups that don't pop-up, that's fishing 🤣👍

[elmoputney]

17 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

I wouldn't worry, I've spent 100s on pop-ups that don't pop-up, that's fishing 🤣👍

If I had a pound for every pop up in my collection I would be pretty wealthy right now 🤣

[commonly]

1 hour ago, elmoputney said:

If I had a pound for every pop up in my collection I would be pretty wealthy right now 🤣

Sounds like you should stop buying them mate.

Although the one you gave me, was useful. Proper job 👍

[elmoputney]

2 minutes ago, commonly said:

Sounds like you should stop buying them mate.

Although the one you gave me, was useful. Proper job 👍

I just looked on the proper job website gone up to £10.25 a tub now. Good job I have tonnes already 😳

[commonly]

3 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

I wouldn't fish a short uncoated braid to a 4oz lead and not drop it.  Lead clip or drop off inline.

I've always said it, a short hooklink,(unless you drop the lead) will always end up causing damage to the fish. Either the swivel or lead will be catching the fishes mouth and head in a fight.

The shortest I'd go is 5 inches for that reason.

Maybe try a stiff fluorocarbon????

 

[KINDFISHER]

2 minutes ago, commonly said:

I've always said it, a short hooklink,(unless you drop the lead) will always end up causing damage to the fish. Either the swivel or lead will be catching the fishes mouth and head in a fight.

The shortest I'd go is 5 inches for that reason.

Maybe try a stiff fluorocarbon????

 

I'm going to reassess my whole end tackle arrangement from mainline right the way through to the boilie stop (including PVA bag size and contents).  I'm also going to ditch the current waters that I'm fishing and find pastures new, and do a little bit of experimentation work.  Should keep me busy for a few years

[elmoputney]

1 hour ago, KINDFISHER said:

I'm going to reassess my whole end tackle arrangement from mainline right the way through to the boilie stop (including PVA bag size and contents).  I'm also going to ditch the current waters that I'm fishing and find pastures new, and do a little bit of experimentation work.  Should keep me busy for a few years

How will you know what part was the problem if you ditch everything at once?  

 

[commonly]

Sounds a bit drastic?

Maybe try another species?

I know others on here do that for a change

if you're already catching more than anyone else. It sounds like your rig needs fine tuning

[commonly]

Sounds a bit drastic?

Maybe try another species?

I know others on here do that for a change

if you're already catching more than anyone else. It sounds like your rig needs fine tuning

[KINDFISHER]

50 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

How will you know what part was the problem if you ditch everything at once?  

 

Well, I won't ditch the whole lot at once, I'll start with your braid suggestion and see how it goes.  I'll the gradually assess each component to see if it can be improved or ditched depending on the experimentation results.  I just want to be as effective as possible, whilst preventing any unnecessary damage.

[KINDFISHER]

43 minutes ago, commonly said:

Sounds a bit drastic?

Maybe try another species?

I know others on here do that for a change

if you're already catching more than anyone else. It sounds like your rig needs fine tuning

Yeah, well it just feels like I need a new challenge on a different lake.  I have been doing a spot of river fishing recently, catching perch, dace, chub and gudgeon etc, but it doesn't really scratch that carpy itch.  I will fine tune my current method as you suggest, I've just got back from my local tackle shop with the ESP TUNGSTEN LOADED and some inline drop off leads, so I'll see how I get on.  I had a bit of  a moan about the 20lb KORDA braid, but to no avail.  I was advised to contact KORDA, so I will, just to see what they say

[crusian]

22 hours ago, commonly said:

Krank

Hello Commonly .

I've not been happy with the hook holds I've had with Kranks which I put down to the size of Carp that I catch .

ESP Trig Hammers were a particular disaster for me .

  

[salokcinnodrog]

On 05/10/2023 at 12:11, KINDFISHER said:

Hi all, sorry for the length of this post, but the information is all relevant.  I am a seasoned angler of 40 years plus and have enjoyed all types of fishing in this time.  I am predominantly a carp angler and have fine tuned my tactics over the years, both with ideas of my own and information gleaned from the famous and those not so famous, from books, magazines internet etc. etc.  I’m not gonna boast, but the main method I use catches me a hell of a lot of fish when others around me seem to struggle.  However, I have come up against a problem, which is the result of the method that I use, and although I’m catching a lot of carp I need to change things.  The problem is, that the fish I’m catching seem to be suffering mouth damage in the scissors section of the mouth - sometimes on one side, sometimes on both.  I have been using propolis on the damage and carp disinfectant where appropriate, but I’m not prepared to carry on with the damage that I’m seeing.  I fish all types of lakes and catch all sizes of carp.  So, I’m using 10ft 3lb test curve rods, 16lb fluorocarbon mainline, 2 blobs (about the size of a large pea) of heavy metal putty on the mainline about 8 inches and then 16 inches above an 18 inch length of anti tangle tubing (to protect the carps flanks), anti tangle tubing plugs into a tail rubber which attaches to an inline pear lead (3oz or 4oz).  I have my rods on alarms, with heavyish bobbins that register the bite quickly, and have my lines reasonably tight, but not bow string tight, as I like to have the line resting on the bottom about 4 feet from my lead.  I have my rod butts sometimes on the floor (due to rock hard banks and not wanting to smash banksticks in - scaring all the carp away and naffing off every angler in the vicinity) and sometimes in a butt holder of some description.  I fish big pit reels with baitrunners, with the baitrunner clutch set anywhere from no give ( if anywhere near bushes, reeds et) to fairly loose if in open water.  My mainline is then threaded through the anti tangle tubing etc and attached to my rig via a 6 turn full blood knot to a size 8 swivel that plugs into the lead.  My rig consists of a size 6 or 8 wide gape micro barbed hook or similar sharpened variety, tied onto soft 20lb braid (varying between 4 inches and 6 inches) via a 4 turn grinner knot.  The braid is then tied to the size 8 swivel via the same knot.  Both knots have a blob of rig glue applied.  I whip a hair onto the hook using fine sewing thread material, and the hair leaves the hook opposite the hook point.  The whipping uses a small blob of rig glue. I then have a one inch piece of shrink tubing which covers the hair whipping and the hook knot and extends the length of hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve (line aligner style).  I solely use PVA  bags, which contain my lead and rig, which are separated by 2/3 the length of the rig that I am using.  The bag is filled with pellets, boiles and various powders / groundbait and other goodies that the carp find attractive.  Due to the effectiveness of my rig and boilie attachment, coupled with the PVA bag, most of my catches are nailed in the bottom of the mouth somewhere and rarely come out - in fact I only lose one or two fish in every hundred runs.  The hook holds sometimes can be seen to have moved a bit initially, but this results in only small scratches or tears, which can easily heal with the aid of the carp care products that I use.  I don’t play the fish hard and don’t drag them out of snags or reeds etc, although I will put some pressure on them to keep them out of said snags or reeds etc so that they don’t damage themselves or get snarled up in their bid for freedom.  I use a 42 inch landing net which I use to carry them to the unhooking mat, making sure that the line from the rod tip to the rig has slack line so that it doesn’t pull on the fish whilst being transported.  I am very proficient at unhooking them once on the bank and the hooks are removed with relative ease and no excessive damage.  So, as I said at the beginning, I am catching a hell of a lot of carp with my methods (not gonna give my hook baits or bag mix away, as to be honest these are probably my biggest edge) but the mouth damage in the scissors is not acceptable to me, so something has to change.  All thoughts welcome and feel free to ask questions and give helpful opinions.  Tight lines to you all and thanks in advance 🙂👍🏻  

Lots to look at!

10feet 3lb TC rods?

That in itself could be part of the problem, even though you say you don't play fish hard. If the rods are tip actioned, then you can be putting a lot of hard pressure on the fishes mouth at short range in the fight. A through action rod could be a better option, or a lighter test curve. A 10feet rod can be very stiff!

The same test curve on a 12feet rod could be nicer!

 

Your hooklink braid, what is it?

I've used various Kryston braids for over 30years, Merlin, Supernova, Silkworm in 15 or 25lb, no mouth damage. Sadly when Kryston was sold their braids became hard to get hold of, so my stocks are now running low. If you use a mainline braid, that can be a totally different material and could cause damage.

Extremely short hooklinks, my minimum is 15centimetres, 6inches. A short hooklink with a lead bouncing around very close to the hook...

Extremely sharp, hand sharpened hooks, on soft mouthed silt feeding fish, no need, just an ordinary hook out of the packet, my choice of hooks are Gardner Muggas and Solar 101's in size 4 and 6, only dropping smaller for floater fishing or to comply with lake tiles. 

[crusian]

23 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

Multi rig, recently done with stiff end section.

Esp Tungsten loaded semi stiff

Korda IQ 25lb

Korda Choddy size 4 or Kama Kura style

 

That's great thanks , Kev.

I'm already using ESP Tungsten Loaded Semi Stiff since Yonny recommended it ; I did have a try with Korda Ready Made multi rig with the Kamo Braid , but I found the coating didn't keep it's rigidity over time , and so messed the presentation up .

So now I'm concentrating on whether to use a hook with an in- turned , or out - turned eye   .

🤔

[crusian]

22 hours ago, elmoputney said:

The krank type hooks are good with a Ronnie Rig, I've recently developed a love of these with the Ronnie, these are now pretty much all I use now, great hook holds so far. 

https://www.jprecisionhooks.co.uk/products/advanced-lgs

I also use avid D rig kickers as my go to Ronnie kicker, I like having the d rig to add a little more seperation between hook and bait (bit fiddly) and when I need to change hooks I now always file down the barb of the old hook to aid removing this 👍

Thanks , Elmo .

The jprecision hook is one I can look at as I'm only allowed to use barbless hooks - crimping / filing not allowed .

😃