HOW TO PREVENT MOUTH DAMAGE

[KINDFISHER]

Hi all, sorry for the length of this post, but the information is all relevant.  I am a seasoned angler of 40 years plus and have enjoyed all types of fishing in this time.  I am predominantly a carp angler and have fine tuned my tactics over the years, both with ideas of my own and information gleaned from the famous and those not so famous, from books, magazines internet etc. etc.  I’m not gonna boast, but the main method I use catches me a hell of a lot of fish when others around me seem to struggle.  However, I have come up against a problem, which is the result of the method that I use, and although I’m catching a lot of carp I need to change things.  The problem is, that the fish I’m catching seem to be suffering mouth damage in the scissors section of the mouth - sometimes on one side, sometimes on both.  I have been using propolis on the damage and carp disinfectant where appropriate, but I’m not prepared to carry on with the damage that I’m seeing.  I fish all types of lakes and catch all sizes of carp.  So, I’m using 10ft 3lb test curve rods, 16lb fluorocarbon mainline, 2 blobs (about the size of a large pea) of heavy metal putty on the mainline about 8 inches and then 16 inches above an 18 inch length of anti tangle tubing (to protect the carps flanks), anti tangle tubing plugs into a tail rubber which attaches to an inline pear lead (3oz or 4oz).  I have my rods on alarms, with heavyish bobbins that register the bite quickly, and have my lines reasonably tight, but not bow string tight, as I like to have the line resting on the bottom about 4 feet from my lead.  I have my rod butts sometimes on the floor (due to rock hard banks and not wanting to smash banksticks in - scaring all the carp away and naffing off every angler in the vicinity) and sometimes in a butt holder of some description.  I fish big pit reels with baitrunners, with the baitrunner clutch set anywhere from no give ( if anywhere near bushes, reeds et) to fairly loose if in open water.  My mainline is then threaded through the anti tangle tubing etc and attached to my rig via a 6 turn full blood knot to a size 8 swivel that plugs into the lead.  My rig consists of a size 6 or 8 wide gape micro barbed hook or similar sharpened variety, tied onto soft 20lb braid (varying between 4 inches and 6 inches) via a 4 turn grinner knot.  The braid is then tied to the size 8 swivel via the same knot.  Both knots have a blob of rig glue applied.  I whip a hair onto the hook using fine sewing thread material, and the hair leaves the hook opposite the hook point.  The whipping uses a small blob of rig glue. I then have a one inch piece of shrink tubing which covers the hair whipping and the hook knot and extends the length of hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve (line aligner style).  I solely use PVA  bags, which contain my lead and rig, which are separated by 2/3 the length of the rig that I am using.  The bag is filled with pellets, boiles and various powders / groundbait and other goodies that the carp find attractive.  Due to the effectiveness of my rig and boilie attachment, coupled with the PVA bag, most of my catches are nailed in the bottom of the mouth somewhere and rarely come out - in fact I only lose one or two fish in every hundred runs.  The hook holds sometimes can be seen to have moved a bit initially, but this results in only small scratches or tears, which can easily heal with the aid of the carp care products that I use.  I don’t play the fish hard and don’t drag them out of snags or reeds etc, although I will put some pressure on them to keep them out of said snags or reeds etc so that they don’t damage themselves or get snarled up in their bid for freedom.  I use a 42 inch landing net which I use to carry them to the unhooking mat, making sure that the line from the rod tip to the rig has slack line so that it doesn’t pull on the fish whilst being transported.  I am very proficient at unhooking them once on the bank and the hooks are removed with relative ease and no excessive damage.  So, as I said at the beginning, I am catching a hell of a lot of carp with my methods (not gonna give my hook baits or bag mix away, as to be honest these are probably my biggest edge) but the mouth damage in the scissors is not acceptable to me, so something has to change.  All thoughts welcome and feel free to ask questions and give helpful opinions.  Tight lines to you all and thanks in advance 🙂👍🏻  

[elmoputney]

2 things I might consider. 

Maybe use a different uncoated braid. 

Maybe consider using a drop off inline lead 

[KINDFISHER]

5 hours ago, elmoputney said:

2 things I might consider. 

Maybe use a different uncoated braid. 

Maybe consider using a drop off inline lead 

The supple braid is supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there and so I would hope that it is one of the best quality carp friendly braids out there - it should be as it costs nearly £1 per metre  .  I will try the drop off inline lead, but cannot see this as a long term solution as on some good weeks this could cost me £70+ and over the year means 400+ discarded leads sat around on lake beds.  There must be thousands of carp anglers using 4oz and indeed 5 oz leads to aid in the initial hooking of the carp (including some very famous ones), maybe they all have the same issue, but just move on ???

[kevtaylor]

Use an efficient pop-up rig, my hook holds since using these almost exclusively have been bang on, normally dead centre of the bottom lip and a fair way in.  Very few hooked in the scissors, cant remember any tbh, must have been a few, but nailed proper.  Its the first thing i noticed when trying the rig and the reason I've stuck with it since.

Also no slippage that I can remember. 👍

Used to use a blowback rig with rig ring, bottom baits, wafters or snowmen, caught lots, but hook holds were more random and lost more.  When its not nailed on the pickup I guess it pulls into the scissors as it tightens it up whilst moving off.

Edited October 5, 2023 by kevtaylor

[commonly]

If I can, I'll always use a curved Krank hook. 

On the rare occasion I catch a fish, it's always nailed center of the bottom lip.

I found similar similar issyes with unusual hook holds with the straight shanked hooks. That's on combi or stiff rigs.

[elmoputney]

53 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

The supple braid is supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there and so I would hope that it is one of the best quality carp friendly braids out there - it should be as it costs nearly £1 per metre  .  I will try the drop off inline lead, but cannot see this as a long term solution as on some good weeks this could cost me £70+ and over the year means 400+ discarded leads sat around on lake beds.  There must be thousands of carp anglers using 4oz and indeed 5 oz leads to aid in the initial hooking of the carp (including some very famous ones), maybe they all have the same issue, but just move on ???

You can buy a broken down ferrari and it will still be broken, personally I think it will be the uncoated braid that is causing the mouth damage. 

[KINDFISHER]

1 minute ago, elmoputney said:

You can buy a broken down ferrari and it will still be broken, personally I think it will be the uncoated braid that is causing the mouth damage. 

Have you any suggestions for an alternative that will behave in the same manner as my current supple braid ???

[elmoputney]

2 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

Have you any suggestions for an alternative that will behave in the same manner as my current supple braid ???

Without knowing what one you use it would be difficult to ascertain what to suggest. I find uncoated braids can be a bit rough to the touch though and if you have flecks of kevlar in them they can be quite sharp too, 

[KINDFISHER]

18 minutes ago, commonly said:

If I can, I'll always use a curved Krank hook. 

On the rare occasion I catch a fish, it's always nailed center of the bottom lip.

I found similar similar issyes with unusual hook holds with the straight shanked hooks. That's on combi or stiff rigs.

As I said in my rather long post, most of the time the carp are hooked in the centre of the bottom lip (not always) , but there is still mouth damage ???

[elmoputney]

4 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

As I said in my rather long post, most of the time the carp are hooked in the centre of the bottom lip (not always) , but there is still mouth damage ???

Then it is the hooklink

[kevtaylor]

22 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

As I said in my rather long post, most of the time the carp are hooked in the centre of the bottom lip (not always) , but there is still mouth damage ???

Mouth damage like what? Cuts from hook slippage or like red rawness from rubbing?

[elmoputney]

8 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Mouth damage like what? Cuts from hook slippage or like red rawness from rubbing?

I think it will be cuts from the braid whilst the fish is going away from him a bit too much pressure and it is slicing through the scissors from what I can understand. 

[crusian]

1 hour ago, kevtaylor said:

Use an efficient pop-up rig, my hook holds since using these almost exclusively have been bang on, normally dead centre of the bottom lip and a fair way in.  Very few hooked in the scissors, cant remember any tbh, must have been a few, but nailed proper.  Its the first thing i noticed when trying the rig and the reason I've stuck with it since.

Also no slippage that I can remember. 👍

Used to use a blowback rig with rig ring, bottom baits, wafters or snowmen, caught lots, but hook holds were more random and lost more.  When its not nailed on the pickup I guess it pulls into the scissors as it tightens it up whilst moving off.

Hello Kev

Could you describe your pop-up rig please , or do you prefer not to say ? .

I use pop-ups exclusively , and all the Carp I catch are hooked in the scissors ; that's using a Ronnie Rig with a Gardner Mugga Sz. 6 .

Like Kindfisher I'm keen to hook the Carp I catch in the tougher , less inclined to damage lips rather than the scissors .

😃

[kevtaylor]

27 minutes ago, crusian said:

Hello Kev

Could you describe your pop-up rig please , or do you prefer not to say ? .

I use pop-ups exclusively , and all the Carp I catch are hooked in the scissors ; that's using a Ronnie Rig with a Gardner Mugga Sz. 6 .

Like Kindfisher I'm keen to hook the Carp I catch in the tougher , less inclined to damage lips rather than the scissors .

😃

Multi rig, recently done with stiff end section.

Esp Tungsten loaded semi stiff

Korda IQ 25lb

Korda Choddy size 4 or Kama Kura style

 

[kevtaylor]

36 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I think it will be cuts from the braid whilst the fish is going away from him a bit too much pressure and it is slicing through the scissors from what I can understand. 

Probably change to a coated braid straight through then?  Stripped hair

The Korda Dark Matter sinking braid is a thick material for hooklinks especially in 25lb - not a thin braid that cuts like whiplash 👍

[KINDFISHER]

46 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Mouth damage like what? Cuts from hook slippage or like red rawness from rubbing?

Basically it's as if the sides of the mouth have been hacked a bit - not to the point of a complete 'Glasgow Smile' , but enough to cause a need for change...

[KINDFISHER]

4 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Probably change to a coated braid straight through then?  Stripped hair

The Korda Dark Matter sinking braid is a thick material for hooklinks especially in 25lb - not a thin braid that cuts like whiplash 👍

Unfortunately you have picked the exact supple braid that I am currently using

[kevtaylor]

1 minute ago, KINDFISHER said:

Unfortunately you have picked the exact supple braid that I am currently using

Really in 25lb its really thick thats surprising.

I'd try a coated braid and just strip the hair, something like the ESP Tungsten Loaded thats fab 👍

[crusian]

4 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Multi rig, recently done with stiff end section.

Esp Tungsten loaded semi stiff

Korda IQ 25lb

Korda Choddy size 4 or Kama Kura style

 

Thanks very much , Kev. 

At the moment I have one rod with a Ronnie , and the other with a multi rig so I can try different hook patterns ; the pattern I'm trying at the moment is a ESP Grip Rigger which has an out turned eye .

 

 

[KINDFISHER]

43 minutes ago, elmoputney said:

I think it will be cuts from the braid whilst the fish is going away from him a bit too much pressure and it is slicing through the scissors from what I can understand. 

As I said in my post, I don't play the fish hard and in my opinion I play the fish quite lightly and only apply pressure when the carp make a bid for freedom in snags or reeds etc.  I usually let them plod around under the rod tip whilst keeping a light bend in the rod.

 

 

[kevtaylor]

1 minute ago, crusian said:

Thanks very much , Kev. 

At the moment I have one rod with a Ronnie , and the other with a multi rig so I can try different hook patterns ; the pattern I'm trying at the moment is a ESP Grip Rigger which has an out turned eye .

 

 

I'm not for the ronnie and haven't used one just because of the extra metal, need for shrink tube or kicker and swivels can stick.

The stiff end multi seems a winner so far to me, done all my recent fish maybe coincidence but it is aggressive.  Obvs none of the additional stuff and can change hook even easier, what's not to like,  plus everyone used ronnies, thats reason enough  lol

[kevtaylor]

8 minutes ago, crusian said:

Thanks very much , Kev. 

At the moment I have one rod with a Ronnie , and the other with a multi rig so I can try different hook patterns ; the pattern I'm trying at the moment is a ESP Grip Rigger which has an out turned eye .

 

 

Korda Choddy - used for a long time, no complaints its like a widegape with the out turned eye and thats been doing the business forever hasn't it. 

Im sure all the ESP ones are great too 👍

I've got some of the new range and used to use stiff riggers, still got them in the archives along with the CarpRUs LS Nailers 👀😳🤣

[elmoputney]

22 minutes ago, KINDFISHER said:

As I said in my post, I don't play the fish hard and in my opinion I play the fish quite lightly and only apply pressure when the carp make a bid for freedom in snags or reeds etc.  I usually let them plod around under the rod tip whilst keeping a light bend in the rod.

 

 

Then it must be the braid with a heavy lead swinging about in front of its face I would say., try a soft coated braid and see if it still does it. 

[elmoputney]

19 minutes ago, kevtaylor said:

Korda Choddy - used for a long time, no complaints its like a widegape with the out turned eye and thats been doing the business forever hasn't it. 

Im sure all the ESP ones are great too 👍

I've got some of the new range and used to use stiff riggers, still got them in the archives along with the CarpRUs LS Nailers 👀😳🤣

ESP chod hammers 👍

[commonly]

Krank