Homemade particle

[carpepecheur]

2 hours ago, kevtaylor said:

I think you need to look at how much tiger nuts swell when soaked and boiled - because I'd guess a minimum 4 times the original size and I'm being conservative on that.

If food swelled to 4 - 8 times its original size I'd be in trouble.

Yes I have investigated tiger nuts. They are a different animal to maize. I drive to Valencia where a lot of it is grown and buy sacks of the biggest and freshest "nuts" I can find. Here is a suggestion, Instead of soaking them in water, soak them in Tiparros fish sauce, available in bulk from chinese supermarkets. I found it vey succesful and yes tiger nuts do swell up a lot compared to maize.

[Golden Paws]

6 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

I believe Hinders is a supplier of bait for carp. Would you not think that they have a vested interest in making baits seem more complicated than they need to be?

No. Hinders are a reputable Company with many years of experience and give advice freely to educate the customer so that problems don't occur. If that means they sell more particles, I'm happy to accept that.

[kevtaylor]

4 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

Yes I have investigated tiger nuts. They are a different animal to maize. I drive to Valencia where a lot of it is grown and buy sacks of the biggest and freshest "nuts" I can find. Here is a suggestion, Instead of soaking them in water, soak them in Tiparros fish sauce, available in bulk from chinese supermarkets. I found it vey succesful and yes tiger nuts do swell up a lot compared to maize.

Thanks for the suggestion, I dont usually add anything 👍

[chillfactor]

Always surprises me how quick tigers dry back out too & dehydrate , back to an unprepared state .

[carpepecheur]

15 hours ago, Golden Paws said:

No. Hinders are a reputable Company with many years of experience and give advice freely to educate the customer so that problems don't occur. If that means they sell more particles, I'm happy to accept that.

I am sure Hinders are "reputable", whatever that means. I notice they sell raw maize described as effective and affordable for £1.35 per kilo (if you buy their largest economy pack) plus £13 shipping. I can drive to my local shop and buy it for 25p per kilo. I could drive to a local farm at harvest time and fill a trailer full of the stuff for a fraction of even that price but I can only store so much.

 

If I wanted to proves that using raw maize was actually harmful to fish, personally I would not cite Hinders as a source of scientific knowledge. If I could not find experimental evidence that an expansion of 10% in the gut of a feeding and excreting carp transended the elastic limit of that gut, then I would expect to find at least some Bayesian inference to support that hypothesis. I have been unable to find either. I am simply asking for help in finding such evidence to justify changing my approach. Isn't that what forums like this are all about?

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by carpepecheur

[oscsha]

6 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

I am sure Hinders are "reputable", whatever that means. I notice they sell raw maize described as effective and affordable for £1.35 per kilo (if you buy their largest economy pack) plus £13 shipping. I can drive to my local shop and buy it for 25p per kilo. I could drive to a local farm at harvest time and fill a trailer full of the stuff for a fraction of even that price but I can only store so much.

 

If I wanted to proves that using raw maize was actually harmful to fish, personally I would not cite Hinders as a source of scientific knowledge. If I could not find experimental evidence that an expansion of 10% in the gut of a feeding and excreting carp transended the elastic limit of that gut, then I would expect to find at least some Bayesian inference to support that hypothesis. I have been unable to find either. I am simply asking for help in finding such evidence to justify changing my approach. Isn't that what forums like this are all about?

 

 

With all due respect you don't know how much the maize will expand and how quick once eaten !! Some will be crushed by the carp so the tough outer is broken ,how do you know what effects the digesting acids in the carp effect the maize ?

Placing maize in water to see how much it expands is NOT what happens when eaten by carp.

 

Surely your better off playing it safe rather than risking unknowns .

[yonny]

15 hours ago, carpepecheur said:

Tiparros fish sauce

I'm guessing the high salt content will inhibit the tigers production of that thick jelly-like sugary slime no?

32 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

If I could not find experimental evidence that an expansion of 10% in the gut of a feeding and excreting carp transended the elastic limit of that gut, then I would expect to find at least some Bayesian inference to support that hypothesis. I have been unable to find either.

It's your call buddy. Like you say we cannot tell you that you are wrong, we cannot provide the evidence you seek. Let's just hope your tactics don't yield said evidence.

[carpepecheur]

There seems to be a clear implication on this forum that the use of raw maize should be avoided because, despite any clear evidence to the contrary, it can be imagined that the maize can expand in the gut and harm the fish.

 

I do understand that argument but why isn’t the same logic applied to other aspects of carp bait?

[yonny]

13 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

I do understand that argument but why isn’t the same logic applied to other aspects of carp bait?

Example please buddy?

The same logic is applied to all particle baits.

Then we have boiled baits which unlike particles are highly digestible (assuming you're using a half decent one), and pellet which break-down in minutes. Naturals such as maggot and worm are digestible, only the skins pass through.

[yonny]

22 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

There seems to be a clear implication on this forum that the use of raw maize should be avoided

I think it's fair to say that implication comes from the UK carp angling fraternity, not just this forum.

[carpepecheur]

2 hours ago, yonny said:

Example please buddy?

 

Sorry Yonny there was no criticism intended of this friendly, experienced and often well informed forum. Perhaps I should have used the term “general consensus in carp fishing” instead.

The logic being applied in the raw maize discussion seems to be:- although there is no direct evidence, one can imagine a situation in which expanding maize can harm a fish therefor it is better to err on the side of caution and not use it. To which I say, if that logic holds up, then that logic should be applied consistently.

You asked for an example so I suggest the use of salt.

Carp cannot exist without salt, so the argument goes that extra salt in bait or in the environment helps to replace that needed by the carp and is therefore attractive to them and beneficial to their health. I can find no evidence of carp in a normal lake suffering from lack of salt. Of course it has to be the right kind of salt and Himalyan rock salt seems to be de rigueur for carp fishing.

However, there is plenty of evidence of too much salt being toxic to most forms of life. It is easy to imagine that too much salt can cause harm to a fish but how much is too much? Therefore, using the logic we have already established, we should avoid the use of salt completely.

[yonny]

14 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

there was no criticism intended of this friendly, experienced and often well informed forum.

For sure mate I know that. This is a debate, nothing more. Quite a good one imo.

14 minutes ago, carpepecheur said:

there is plenty of evidence of too much salt being toxic to most forms of life. It is easy to imagine that too much salt can cause harm to a fish but how much is too much?

Good example, but for me we know salt is safe to use (within reason). We would need to spod 24 tonnes of salt into a one acre lake just to achieve the salinity koi enthusiasts desire of their ponds:

https://www.carpology.net/article/features/the-truth-about-salt/

Edit: that's from Simon Scott, one the most respected fish farmers in the UK. 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by yonny

[carpepecheur]

That was an interesting article but it did not quite give the whole picture. Salt water at 0.3% concentration is only used to treat fish when there is a specific problem in a Koi pond.

Even if the fish can survive, it has other effects.

If salinity levels reach 0.10% or above - anacharis, water hyacinths and lotus will not be able to live in the water.

If salinity levels reach 0.20% or above - lavender musk and water lilies will not be able to live in the water.

If salinity levels reach 0.30% or above – the majority of other aquatic plants will suffer. This includes forget-me-nots, zebra rush, cattails and floating hearts.

(Source of info :- https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk)

I remember reading an article where a famous name placed a salt lick in a lake and observed what happened. Eventually carp were attracted to the area and, over time, completely cleared the area of weed and even left a shallow depression where they had been feeding. His conclusion was that salt is a great attractor.

My conclusion from his observation was quite different. If you have ever been out and caught razor fish on a beach at low tide you will understand. The technique is to pour a little bit of salt into their hole. After several seconds the razor fish comes up and sticks out above the surface to get rid of the irritant. (They are delicious to eat and make a superb bait for Bass). I guess something similar is happening at the salt lick in the carp lake.

I suggest that as the salt lick dissolves it creates a very strong salt solution locally before being dispersed in the rest of the lake. This concentrated salt solution, being denser than freshwater, spreads along the bottom disturbing and eventually killing all the microorganisms that carp like to feed on. This provides a ready feast for carp who move in and make a killing while it lasts. This then leaves an inert cleared space which the name reported seeing.

This is pure speculation on my part but just as likely as the explanation that the carp are therefore attracted to the salt lick. So using our established logic we should avoid salt.

Coming back to your 24 tons of salt in a one-acre lake, I believe this to be rather misleading. Apart from the damage it would do to other pond life, if you are spodding out lumps of salt it will be in a relatively small area. This will cause very high concentrations locally and do damage before it is dispersed generally into the lake. In addition, salt water is denser than fresh water so will form underwater pockets of higher concentration doing further damage.

Because the article appeared in a (presumably) respected carp magazine it is accepted without question. Using our established logic, we should avoid such practise.

 

 

[yonny]

The article says they add salt to the water on their farm.

Either way, we're not spodding 24 tonnes lol. Were talking grams, which is completely negligible.  We're not talking about a % worth discussing, we're talking in terms of PPM.

[buzzbomb]

I'm content to soak and cook my maize because I'll use it on the hair as well as for ground bait.  However, a carp is not a pipe bomb.  Huge schools of carp feed on grains, pulses, and legumes spilled into the water where they load freighters  at ports on the Great Lakes.  Guides on the St Lawrence knife open huge sacks of maize on the transoms of their boats and let it go straight into the river.  These are the places tourists come to try and catch their 50.  Maybe they wait until it softens up a bit before eating it, but if they can crush clams and zebra mussels, they can probably crush corn.  Even if raw isn't a danger, I think the cooked bait is worth the effort for the attractant value of released scent/flavour.

[carpepecheur]

12 hours ago, yonny said:

The article says they add salt to the water on their farm.

Either way, we're not spodding 24 tonnes lol. Were talking grams, which is completely negligible.  We're not talking about a % worth discussing, we're talking in terms of PPM.

I totally agree with what you said Yonny but you seem to infer that it is therefore safe to send out a few spodfulls of pink Himalayan rock salt.

I think you are wrong and will explain why I think that. There are three very simple experiments you can do to help understand my concerns.

1)    Put a blob of that bright green goo stuff, that I have seen on UK web sites, onto the bed of a lake where you can observe it. You will notice that, because it is heavier than water, it spreads out along the bottom of the lake. (Actually there are youtube videos showing this to save you doing it yourself.)

2)    Drop a couple of sugar cubes into the bottom of a cup of tea, without stirring, then drink it slowly straight away. You should notice that as you get to the end of the cup it gets sweeter and sweeter. (not rocket science is it?)

3)    Get some live daphnia from a pet shop where it is sold as fish food and watch them swim around in a glass of water. Drop some rock salt to the bottom of the glass. You will see that the daphnia move towards the top of the glass to get away from the brine and then eventually die.

What I think happens when you spod out a dose of rock salt is that it takes a finite time to dissolve. As it dissolves the water around the rock salt becomes extremely salty. This strong brine is heavier than water and sinks to the bottom where it spreads out much like the goo. The salt continues to dissolve adding more strong brine to that already on the lake bed. Eventually the salt completely dissolves and the brine solution continues to disperse in the lake until it is virtually undetectable.

BUT by then the damage has been done. The strong brine first brings all the small organisms up from the silt and then kills them (a bit like catching razor fish that I mentioned earlier) . This is may be why rock salt appears to attract fish. The carp move in and eat all the small dead organisms and, if there happens to be a bait in the area, they take that as well.

So each time a spod of rock salt is cast out, an inert mini desert is created where all food has been destroyed. It may only be a metre diameter but you can see how it won’t take many anglers to do quite a bit of damage without even knowing they are doing it.

Unless you can prove me wrong I suggest we stick to our principles established earlier and avoid the use of salt.

[carpepecheur]

23 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

 However, a carp is not a pipe bomb. 

I love that expression.

 

Whether cooked maize is more attractive than raw maize is a different question. I have left piles of both side by side overnight. In the morning it has all gone. Whether they took the cokked before the raw, I couldn't say. However I am fishing waters with hardly any pressure from other anglers.