Chod rig for harder/mud bottoms

[bigpitconnor]

As above guys, I want to use a choddy since its hooking ability is great! The carp are slightly riggy but the water is murky, will this rig be effective here as the bottom is slightly muddy but basically hard and not silty?

[iambunn]

Maybe consider the hinged stiff rig if you are sure you want a pop up presentation. Have you thought of using balanced bottoms baits and rigs? I'd say they are usualy a better option over a hard clear bottom?

[bigpitconnor]

Hi mate forgot to mention the fact the mud keeps trapping my lead so the stiff boom on a hinged stiff would make my rig sit at an upwards slope.. But I was wondering if a choddy is only suitable when the actual hooklink is sitting in weed?

[salokcinnodrog]

Hi mate forgot to mention the fact the mud keeps trapping my lead so the stiff boom on a hinged stiff would make my rig sit at an upwards slope.. But I was wondering if a choddy is only suitable when the actual hooklink is sitting in weed?

 

The SILT rig set up (its proper name, NOT Chod, which stands for Claggy Horrible Old Detritus, or something similar), is designed for Silt fishing, NOT in weed, but has been (badly) adapted for any situation (by those who are too lazy to do anything else

 

Actually the hooking ability of a Helicopter set-up is not great, and can be responsible for more lost fish than standard set-ups, some of which since you didn't get any indication you won't even know about.

The angle of pull is across the line, so a ring swivel on mainline can weaken the line by rubbing, and then under pressure it breaks, also that angler of pressure can also lead to high numbers of hookpulls.

 

It is something that Tim Paisley wrote about years ago when he was fishing The Mangrove Swamp in Big Carp Summer in his book Big Carp.

 

Just because a lake is silty, or gravel, sand or clay you DON'T have to use a Helicopter/Rotary set-up.

 

You could fish a standard set-up incorporating a semi-fixed or running lead, effectively a paternoster That way using a weak link, you can be sure that the lead will break free if required. Or by using (the only good use for) a Leadcore link, it will pull the lead down into the silt.

 

The lead pulls everything behind it, reducing tangles, and with a flat (pear/bottle) lead, is less likely to sink right into the lakebed.

 

Pictured below in the quotes is the set-up that Derek Ritchie used to land a number of fish in a water he was fishing, and Danny Fairbrass liked it so much he published it in his book The Korda Guide to Rig Making, or something along those lines

 

This rig is one for use in Weedy waters, it also works in Silty waters where the lead is sinking into the Silt, leaving the hooklink about the silt.

Paternosted Lead attached by a Finer Breaking Strain mono, so in the event of the Lead snagging up it will break free.

 

 

You can play around with the length of the lead link, and also the breaking strain so that you get it sorted for how you need to fish

[bigpitconnor]

No, as frank Warwick states, he named the rig the silt rig and terry Hearn had his take on it as the CHOD, as far as hooking ability goes, jim Shelley catches huge carp and looses few on this rig, also I AM USING FLURO, so a standard rig makes it sit funny due to sunken lead

[stoogi]

Chod rigs!!!!

[dougmoon]

Chod rigs!!!!

 

[salokcinnodrog]

No, as frank Warwick states, he named the rig the silt rig and terry Hearn had his take on it as the CHOD, as far as hooking ability goes, jim Shelley catches huge carp and looses few on this rig, also I AM USING FLURO, so a standard rig makes it sit funny due to sunken lead

 

It wasn't Frank Warwick who christened the short rigs on a helicopter the Silt rig, it was Tim Paisley, shortened from the terminology from "bomb-on-the-end-of-the-line" as he put it "for brevity's sake"

 

The Chod rig terminology came from a conversation between Terry Hearn and Jim Maylin when one asked the other "What's the bottom like out there?" The reply was "its a bit choddy".

 

And Jim Shelley also had to change away from the Silt rig on a number of waters, because it didn't sit right, and wasn't hooking fish

 

Just because someone "famous" does something, it DOES NOT mean that other methods won't work.

 

I use Combi rigs, so I do know how stiffer hooklinks come off the swivel, being as Amnesia is a VERY stiff hooklink material

 

Which is WHY I gave you the picture, so you could see a lead link.

[bigpitconnor]

Sorry mate your just coming off as a bit patronising but at the end of the day im not stupid, im attempting to bag a biggun off a match lake and I need some advice at the mo, and fame has nothing to do with it, the simple fact is he has caught carp to 61lb, therefore he knows his stuff, sorry for any misunderstanding

[margin_master]

you could try the withy pool rig??

[margin_master]

you could try the withy pool rig????

 

chods are for nods

[fantasticmrfox]

Sorry mate your just coming off as a bit patronising but at the end of the day im not stupid, im attempting to bag a biggun off a match lake and I need some advice at the mo, and fame has nothing to do with it, the simple fact is he has caught carp to 61lb, therefore he knows his stuff, sorry for any misunderstanding

 

Seem's like you all ready have your mind made up mate, in which case why ask?

 

Nick gave you a very useful piece of advice and an effective rig for the situation you gave mate yet you seemed to completely disregard it.

 

If you come across with that demeanour when someone answers the question you ask with something other than what it is you want to hear no one will want to help in future.

 

Try taking all the advice and use it constructively, not turn a deaf ear until you hear what you want.

[salokcinnodrog]

Sorry mate your just coming off as a bit patronising but at the end of the day im not stupid, im attempting to bag a biggun off a match lake and I need some advice at the mo, and fame has nothing to do with it, the simple fact is he has caught carp to 61lb, therefore he knows his stuff, sorry for any misunderstanding

 

If I give a full explanation then it seems patronising, yet what you forget is that other people NOT just yourself read threads and opinions, and may need a full answer or explanation.

 

If I had just given a 3 word answer of "Use the Chod" you would have been happy, but it didn't agree with what you wanted to hear.

 

In fact you trying to tell me about how Silt rigs and Chod rig got their name put my back up as I am pretty sure that I probably have a very long memory regarding a vast number of rigs, baits and tackle, in many cases long before some of todays anglers were born. Frank Warwick christened the Chod rig "the Short rig"

 

Just put it this way, I've fished in the 70's, 80's, 90, 00's and now the 10's. Work out how many decades that is!

 

 

You asked for advice, and I gave you advice and my opinion and some of it from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!

I would totally avoid Helicopter set-ups unless I absolutely have to, and the clue in that personal experience is in this line:

 

The angle of pull is across the line, so a ring swivel on mainline can weaken the line by rubbing, and then under pressure it breaks, also that angle of pressure can also lead to high numbers of hookpulls.

 

 

 

20years ago I was playing around with bomb on the end of the line set-ups and found that that was a fault that they had going against them. It meant that even with 20lb leaders I was losing fish, where even the shockleader was giving way. Then we switched over to that horrible poxy stuff called leadcore, which is something I dislike with a passion after finding out for myself how much of a risk it is in fishing.

 

As for Jim Shelley, then I still honestly don't care, I have had personal contact with him, and sometimes what the great and famous do, is not always the best in terms of fish safety

 

There are other rigs that are effective with a great hooking potential, and many a whole lot easier to set up on a standard lead set-up.

 

Now I fish a water that is very silty; no matter how hard I search I still can't find a hard bit of bottom in the lake, it is very thick (smelly) silt, yet I haven't had to resort to Silt set-ups with the bomb on the end of the line yet, and I have had a fair number of fish out on limited number of sessions.

[coops_northants]

You could just fish hard on the deck. Bait up and when you fish have some feed around the hook bait. Create competition by feeding accurately and regularly ( either while fishing or pre baiting) hooking potential is always there with bottom rigs as much as with the chod, infact you will probably notice a better hookng of the fish, with the extra freedom and the greater flexibility to change it up to maximise the runs and numbers of fish caught.

 

The chod rig has its place and works well as its always fishing, not because it hooks better but with 100percent of the time offering a bait as the rig intends not tangled etc as other rigs do.

 

For me I cannot understand why you would go out of your way to make a rig work for something it was not designed for rather than use the obvious, carper make carp fishing difficult, carp are just underwater pigs.

[leggs007]

i agree with coops no need for chod rig on hard bottom a simple knotless knot no frills, if lead is burying itself a bit just use longer hook lengths

[cragger84]

hey salokcinnodrog can you PM me please

[salokcinnodrog]

hey salokcinnodrog can you PM me please

 

Answered

[bigpitconnor]

I'll admit defeat, I wanted to hear I could make the short rig work but only to try to think outside the box since to be fair it does often pay to be different, fished with my dad for years and I fished the hinged stiff this weekend and he fished the paternoster above, to my humiliation he bagged the fish I was after with a proper Cheshire cat grin! However, my opinion is that with my stiff link being VERY stiff, would it not make the link sit at a slope when the lead buries? Also why is leadcore so dangerous? I've never used it as im a tubing man, plus I understand you all hate the choddy but to be fair Tom dove is one of the best young anglers present and he puts the rig on a pedastal as well as ian McMillan, and its not fame, but they have got where they are for a reason guys?

[bigpitconnor]

Aaaalso, someone said 'if its a clear bottom why not use a hinged stiff rig?' I would like to know why, where's the real difference realistically, or is it just that everyone hates the chod rig? No offense

[emmcee]

if you want to use the chod rig mate then go ahead,ive been a convert for 2 seasons now and my catch rate has without doubt gone up.99% of my fish have been nailed 1inch to 2inches back in the mouth bang centre with 2 hook pulls from over 50 fish.this weekend i done a few nights on my spring water which has some low weed but the rest is mainly a sandy bottom where the lead plugs in big style.i had 3 rods out all on the sand 1 chod rig with 6ft of esp sand coloured leadcore and 2 with fluro carbon straight to lead clip and balanced baits on fluro/combi links.2 fish both on the chod."chods for nods" so what if im a noddy then so be it and like you have said why do some of our best anglers use it if its as dangerous and as hopeless as it is made out to be.dont get me wrong in the wrong hands and tied incorrectly it WILL be a death rig which no one wants.ive been carp fishing about 20yrs now and boy do i wish i new about that rig from day 1. oh and nick is that patternoster rig not from the original korda rig guide? the same korda that you and most other anglers on here slate and here you are publicising them tut tut

[snowmanstevo]

Aaaalso, someone said 'if its a clear bottom why not use a hinged stiff rig?' I would like to know why, where's the real difference realistically, or is it just that everyone hates the chod rig? No offense

 

Ask the lads who had 30lb+ fish at cromwell if they hate chods

 

Not everyone hates them mate just some people have different opinions

[salokcinnodrog]

A couple of threads about Leadcore and Leaders:

https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=32598

That goes back to 2008, when I started experimenting to prove or disprove the safety aspect; Result for me was that Leadcore does NOT do what it says on the tin.

 

https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=39794

 

https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=40970

 

And ask Moorsey what has happened on the fishery he owns and runs in France from purchase to modern day

[iambunn]

I have no problem with the choddy, and usually have it on one rod at my syndy water as a roving rod casting to showing fish, but this is because most of the lake is covered in weed. I believe the hinged stiff rig has better hooking potential though, and can be used with a better lead set up. Because of this, If I know the bottom is clear, I'll use the hinged stiff rig over the choddy. I still prefer a balanced bait like a snowman or a wafter on a clear bottom though

[salokcinnodrog]

if you want to use the chod rig mate then go ahead,ive been a convert for 2 seasons now and my catch rate has without doubt gone up.99% of my fish have been nailed 1inch to 2inches back in the mouth bang centre with 2 hook pulls from over 50 fish.this weekend i done a few nights on my spring water which has some low weed but the rest is mainly a sandy bottom where the lead plugs in big style.i had 3 rods out all on the sand 1 chod rig with 6ft of esp sand coloured leadcore and 2 with fluro carbon straight to lead clip and balanced baits on fluro/combi links.2 fish both on the chod."chods for nods" so what if im a noddy then so be it and like you have said why do some of our best anglers use it if its as dangerous and as hopeless as it is made out to be.dont get me wrong in the wrong hands and tied incorrectly it WILL be a death rig which no one wants.ive been carp fishing about 20yrs now and boy do i wish i new about that rig from day 1. oh and nick is that patternoster rig not from the original korda rig guide? the same korda that you and most other anglers on here slate and here you are publicising them tut tut

 

Yes it is from the original Korda Rig Guide, from the days when DF was actually getting into the tackle shops and I had respect for them.

 

I hate the article plugging by Korda that is now commonplace by the employees and sponsored/subsidised anglers in magazines. I have also found since the publication of that book that some of the stuff they now produce is NOT suitable for my fishing.

 

Problem is that one of our best known anglers has said publicly that he uses Leadcore in lengths as long as 10feet long, although I believe since he has been forced to shorten it for another article

 

Some anglers will catch fish with LC, and they will fish it no matter what, some may not accept the risks.

 

I'm sorry, it doesn't take a "wrongly" set-up leadcore leader to kill a fish, all it takes is 10cm of leadcore and a fish can be tethered.

 

A few years ago, I got into the water between New Year and Christmas, proper fishing as well and did a fair few experiments to prove or disprove some of the theories regarding Leadcore, and in doing so, managed to upset a certain Magazine editor when I e-mailed him my findings, and I got accused of being an armchair keyboard warrior in print in the magazine. The threads on here that gave the facts were all locked when people didn't or wouldn't accept them and the insults flew, all aimed at Keith and myself or those who were showing and telling the risks of Leadcore

 

That 10cms of Leadcore can kink and trap beads so that rigs can't pass over the knot join, even if they do go through the proper central hole. Leadcore can shoot past the lead on contact with water on a cast, even when feathered, that shooting past is able to create a kink in the LC. Pulling it back does not necessarily remove the kink or pull it totally straight. In leadcore, no matter who's it is, there is the possibility of the lead inner breaking and poking through the outer sheath, which can also trap beads in position.

 

If leadcore is able to wrap around any twig, it will prevent the beads (and rig) coming free. That twig can then be pulled and towed around, picking up more weed and other twigs and detritus creating a big bundle of rubbish that a fish is now pulling complete. I know that we want to keep our fish fit, but I'm sure they don't like doing "Wind Sprints" , and that in turn can break the fishes jaw (ask Keith), or eventually snag up totally, tethering the fish.

 

I can give you pictures of bundles of rubbish pulled out of a lake, and in them, for some reason, there always seems to be a length of leadcore, even if it has managed to pick up other snap-offs, or lengths of line.

 

Leadcore does NOT lay so flat along the lakebed, it is not supple enough to go into every nook and cranny, although mono is probably the same, it is not as highly visible as a length of LC laying along the lakebed.

 

The abrasion resistance, I will agree, it is very high, only it is so high that the outer core (which may well be Kevlar or Dyneema based) is able to saw through wood, and is MORE likely to mark and cut the fish than mono, which usually slides over the fish. In fact last week I had a small common which I caught on Fluoro coated mono, and at one point in I saw the line go around the pectoral fin as it turned away under pressure and then came free as the fight progressed, I netted the fish, and there was no marks or damage.

I have also got pictures of fish, which I have put on here before during the days when I did use leadcore, and there are marks which I believe may have been caused by leadcore rubbing along the flanks.

 

Regarding the pictures I put up ages ago of fish with marks on their flanks, that I consider may well have been damaged by leadcore, there is no chance that that is spawning damage, not unless it takes roughly 2 months for (fresh) red marks to heal on rarely caught fish (the big fully scaled caught on 7/7 if anyone knows why the date is relevant) and straight line marks on another mirror and even a pinged scale on the first fish I caught from there which I caught earlier in the year on my second fishing trip to the water, which could not have been caused by spawning as of the time of the first 2 captures they hadn't been there to do it.

 

In fact the first 2 captures came on my second fishing trip on the water in April, and the water was still cold and clear. They didn't spawn that year until May, I know I watched them when they did it.160acres of water to hide in, fish may not get caught for years between captures and some had never been caught before.

 

 

It was during a time when I did use leadcore in my fishing. At the same time I was also fishing Suffolk Water Park a bit, which is very weedy, and lost a fish, that was guaranteed to be trailing a leadcore leader, fished Pendant lead style, as the line went above the leader knot when the fish cut along a gravel bar on the take. Another incident on that lake made me realise how risky any leaders can be; I cast my marker rod out one evening to have a dig around at what was in front of me, and got snagged up by something.

 

Eventually I retrieved a leader fished helicopter style, complete with (plastic) bait, where the lead could not be ejected and 10's of metres of line caught up in weed a big bundle. The beads would not come free from the leader no matter how much hand pressure myself and the bailiff put on it. We had to use pliers to free the beads and the rig, which I'm sure the carp or other fish are not in possession of.

 

I'm sure that Keith will always use his actual memories of having to kill a fish, it is a first hand incident, one that because he saw and dealt with himself is going to use as a reference. Now he has a water where leaders are banned, and since then has not had another incident, and I believe in his water he also drains down at times to remove any snags and branches that are a risk to fishing. The fish seem to have come on in big weights.

 

Leadcore and leaders are things in fishing where if you use them correctly, as per instructions, will cause the potential for fish to be tethered, but add to that, there is so much additional potential for fish to be snagged/harmed if things are done incorrectly, like putting beads side on, or fishing too close to snags.

 

As I said, it only takes 10cms of leadcore for a fish to be snagged up, and a small twig. If anyone has ever lost a fish, and watched it with a hook in the mouth, they can sometimes use a branch or twig and rub against it, swimming round in tight circles. That 10cms of leadcore may then snag up. Result, a snagged, tethered fish.

 

I really didn't want to get dragged back into another leadcore debate, they do get nasty, and apart from smart alec remarks I'm not that way inclined. I prefer live and let live, but sometimes you have to try to point out dangers to whoever

 

 

I'm sorry, I have copied and pasted some of my replies on another forum into the quotes, so some of it is repeated (as it has been done many times before albeit in different words), and I have also C&P'd some of this thread onto that "Leaders or Not" Thread

[emmcee]

just out of curiosity nick what was the altenative leader you once printed a picture of on another thread.if i recall it looked like leadcore but was safer in your eyes.not sure if ive explained it enough for it to jog your memory of it.