salokcinnodrog

I've been using ESP Leadcore, never had a problem with the Lead pushing through the outer braid. When it comes to tubing vs Leadcore, I have been fishing Leadcore on 2 rods and Tubing on 1. I have swapped rods around onto the same areas so that each rod has a fair chance. On 1 Leadcore rod I have 60cms of Leadcore, on the other I have 120cms of Leadcore. The tubing rod is Korda Khaki tubing of 60cms. The 2 Leadcore rods I have had more takes than on the tubing rods, that includes Bream takes as well. On 1 water I have caught 1 Carp and 1 Bream on the tubing. On the Leadcore rigs, my takes have been roughly equal, and I have had 4 Carp and 12 Bream. Not conclusive I know, but I think that tubing does not lie as comfortably and flat across an uneven lake bed like Leadcore. Also there is the possibility of Reflection.

Just for the Record when I fished last night and had 2 carp and 1 bream all of the fish were hooked on a Slack Line Running rig. The first Carp didn't run, I don't think that on a 9inch hooklength it actually knew it was hooked until I struck on 3 bleeps of the Delkims. Incidentally I have my Clutches set very tight, so I can try to pull the Carp off balance. This Carp was hooked on a 9inch hooklink, line aligned and the hair was only about 24mm long, with an 18mm boilie, allowing just 6mm of travel. The rig material was Super Mantis and the Running Lead was 3 oz The 2nd Carp was hooked on a fluorocarbon hooklink of 9inches with a hook line aligned and a D-rig. The swivel end had a loop on it and the bait was an18mm boilie and half a Squid and Octopus 14mm pop-up on the hair loop to sit it nicely on the weed Carpet.. Again taken on a slack line and 3 oz Running Lead. Now in theory both these rigs are complicated. Both were fished over a previous Baited Patch that I think was just the smell remaining in the bottom until I topped it up with a couple of PVA bags of boilies and Pellets.

I use Kryston end Tackle for my Braids. Try one of their Super Braids, like the SuperMantis, SnakeBite or SnakeSkin. You can remove the outer coating to give you a supple inner that is very soft and supple. If you leave a length of the outer coating further up , you also have a fairly tangle free rig. Tie an loop Overhand knot in the end of the Braid and then attach your hook via the Knotless Knot. Attach to the swivel with either a Uni, Grinner or Palomar Knot. If you are not sure of your knots practice until you get it right.

Quote by Ripslider "It's like I said on the distant days of the top of page two. There are times when the heavy, short linked shock/bolt rig is a better way of fishing." Steve, while I agree with you on most of that I don't think that the Heavy Lead 'n' Short Link is a better way of Fishing. I agree with the Heavy part, but I think that Short Links with a Heavy lead result in a lot of Fish being lost, either due to Hookpulls in the fight or in the Fish being wary of the End Tackle. If the fish is lost in the fight on a short Hooklink, I think that the bounce with the Lead so close to the Carps mouth results in the hook being bounced out. I actually lost a Carp last night on a Short Link with a Heavy lead, the first time in ages I have dropped below 7inch hooklink. It is also the 1st Carp I have lost in about 3 years due to a hookpull. As for being awake having to strike with either a Fixed Paternoster or Running Lead again you are right. It is that having to strike with a proper Running Lead or Paternoster that put many Anglers off. I don't class as a Running Lead a lead that can run free but with a tight Line. By definition the lead is not able to run when the line is tight to the rod tip and reel. You are creating a Fixed Point in the Tackle. Please note I have corrected my Error in my Previous post, I missed out 2 important letter on my comment about Resistance

LOL :D I tried that on Thursday. 5kilos of pellets, followed by 4kilos of boilies with a Throwing stick. Think thats bad I only had 1 bream over 2 nights.

The original Hair Rig set-up consisted of a hooklink less than 0.6m (2ft) with a size 4 hook and a hair of 5-7.5cm (2-3in). It was designed to eliminate the sucking and blowing of baits , that occur even with free baits. What made the hair successful was that hard baits were used , the bait having to be taken to the back of the Carp's mouth to be crushed. There are 3 places that a hair can be attached to the hook and my theory of what happens. 1) From the eye, 2) Off the Bend, 3) Along the shank. A hair swinging from the eye of the hook will be fine when the hook and bait are blown out, but on sucking or picking up could actually hook outside the mouth or not entering at all. A hair attached to the bend of the hook will definitely be sucked in the right way, but when blown out the hook will be turned in the mouth, exiting bait and bend first, with little chance of the hookpoint catching. A hair attached to the shank of the hook I think ensures that the hook goes in the right way , bend first, and when ejected it will pivot round trying to force the hook out eye first, thus hooking in the Carps lip. Now in modern fishing the hair has become shorter to become the Ultimate Bolt/Anti Eject rig. The hair is normnally now around 1/2 to 1inch long. In addition the hooklength has now become shorter, now between 6-9inches long. The short hair, short link and tight line all contributing to the fish hooking itself when it tries to spit out the hook. However this short hooklink/short hair and tight line approach mean that the only indications of takes are those in which the Carp have hooked themselves. Sucking fish, I have watched and checked other research, suck from as much as 6inches away from the bait. Baits that are on a short hair will spring back as the hair reaches its full length. This suck is often powerful enough to register a twitch on the indicator. Now I agree with Steve that the best way of de-registering resistance is to minimise the lead attached directly to the line. (Work That one out). If you can change the hair length to something that the Carp are not expecting, maybe going back to the original concept of the hair in its confidence rig scenario with a paternoster, then you should have excellent indication, no resistance and extremely confused and more hooked Carp.

Erm... yes. Sorry I scanned it straight out of a book

I thnk the problem with the short rigs is that Carp aren't actually getting the bait to the back of their throat to crush it down. We are trying to hook them the second they pick up the bait, whereas with the longer rigs we could be getting more strikeable indications by allowing the Carp to actually get the bait right back. If the Carp are testing baits by rolling them around then the short hooklink is going to give less movement and at the same time give us that twitch/bleep that means 'you've been done'. The longer hooklength gives the bait freedom to move and then the Carp can move off with the hook unable to use the Lead as a resistance point. If we take this a little further, if you hook a Carp at the edge of the lips and have hookpulls on occasional fish then the hooklink or hair is probably too short. If we can get the bait to the back of the Carps throat we are giving ourselves more time to get a strikeable indication.

I'm going to try this Long hooklength out on a couple of waters. On one there are some very cute Carp, that are extremely rig shy, in very clear water, although the biggest in the lake is only about 14lb. The other is reliant on baits but quite cloudy. I'll try with and without the Superstiff to see what the Carp can/can't get away with on both waters. On the longer hooklength I'm still convinced that we may get better runs as the Carp won't understand what is happening, being used to pull for resistance at say 6inches. Just thinking that if it is possible to pin down loops, then Silkworm and Merlin may be good hooklengths in longer lengths, even BFA Deception which is exceptionally thin. I think that the majority of Carp are hooked when they pick up the Bait, then move far enough to straighten the hooklink. Now if the Danger Radius is 6-9inches then in that 6-9inches the Carp will move with extra caution so they can stop and shake the hook out if they get pricked. Tim Paisley wrote in To Catch A Carp when he went back to hooklinks of 45cm (15inch) he caught more bigger Carp. Another point he mentioned is that more Carp are lost on shorter hooklinks. The point is that the Carp are only lightly hooked around the edge of the lips, because the Bait is not taken far enough into the fishes mouth, due to this the hook can work out more easily during the fight. Now this long hooklink theory starts to be borne that if the Carp are inspecting and playing with the hookbait then a long hooklength gives them more to play with and you have given them less chance of identifying the hookbait from the freebies. It also means that the bait can be taken further back into the Carp's mouth giving a better strikeable indication. God this is getting too much, all this thinking. lol:confused: :D

I think that with most people fishing short hooklengths the Carp are being conditioned to feeling for the lead at ,say, 6inches. With a longer, softer hooklength the Carp are not feeling the Lead until they have moved a long way. Also a bait on a long hair and long hooklength will behave more naturally in the water if the Carp is sucking and blowing. My theory is simply that a Carp that has to move 2 foot with the bait to get to the next one. The Carp are picking up and are unable to use the Lead to free the hook from their mouth as I think they can with a short mono/fluorocarbon (stiff) hooklength. I also don't think that with a long supple braid hooklength the Carp will necessarily realise that there is a hook attached until it moves to the lead. Would this give us better indications? As for single baits or baits that are far apart I'm not 100%sure, I know what I'm thinking, but can't necessarily explain it. I was thinking I think that a long hooklength with a long hair can be picked up by both suckers and picking up Carp, whereas a short hooklength can only be picked up by Picking up Carp. In terms of your answer I don't think you've misssed the point, I'm playing with everyones answers to get my mind thinking over presentations for Fish. Like you I'm sure that at some point I've contradicted myself, but just want to see if the theory is as good as it seems to be in my head.

Confidence (Long) rigs I think are best when the Baits are further apart or even single baits. I mean if a fish has to move 2foot plus to get to the next Boilie(?) then a 23inch long hooklength will catch that fish out (in theory). Problem is as you stated, how can we get a Hooklength material that the fish can't detect? Fluorocarbon or mono because of their inherent stiffness will create resistance. Add into that a long hair maybe 2 inches long, going back to the original Lennie Middleton idea you have something that hardly anyone fishes. With the changing of the length of the hair you create some very unusual situations that the Carp can't work out. I.e. A long hooklength, changing the length of the Hair. If you consider that to crush and eat the bait then a Carp has to take it to its Pharyngeal teeth some 4inches into its mouth. Again after watching fish feed on PVA bags where its 1 mouthful of food then a short hooklength will work. The Carp is just getting a mouthful of food then, bang, in goes the hook into the lip. The majority of Anglers are all fishing hooklengths of 6-9 inches long and Fluorocarbon seems to be the fashion at the moment. Most anglers are using the hair so that the bait is resting against the shank. I'll try to be different, if everyone fishes Fluorcarbon hooklengths then I'll stick with my 10-12 inch braid lengths with a proper hair.

The same rig I use for all of my Fishing.

I know the Shockleader knot In the shock leader tie an Overhand knot, but don't pull it tight. Thread the mainline through the knot and then loop it round the shockleader a minimum of 6 times. Then back up through the loop. Hope this diagram comes out ok

Adam I think the best material I have found for long hooklengths is Kryston SuperSilk. In its white state it looks pretty obvious, but it does take up the colour of the botton very quickly and it can be coloured. Another way of fishing a long hooklength is to use a concertina effect, with the use of Superstiff. The hooklength is folded into thirds and then stuck into position with the Superstiff. Alternatively we get into the realms of complication with Extending rigs and lengths of braid attached but not fixed with rig rings. I think how far a Carp can suck a Boilie in from depends on the make up of the bottom. On a clear firm bottom, the Carp can suck in from further away than on a silty water, where it may actually have to pick it up. It is for these clear water sucking Carp that the Sliding hair was invented. Also there are different types of feeding between Carp. I have seen some pick up baits, while others sucked them in. This is on the same water, some fish suck, while others pick up. Does this mean that we need to use different rigs dependant on what type of feeding Carp we have in front of us?

Steve I think I understand and agree with most of what you're saying. I also think that a lot of anglers forget how Carp feed. Hence why 1 particular rig becomes In-Vogue. At the moment the trend seems to be for short rigs put in a bag full of pellets. Now the idea behind this is as soon as a fish lifts after taking the bait the Carp is hooked in the bottom lip? Imagine if you will where a Carp has to move further between boilies to get its next mouthfull, this is where a lengthened hooklength will work. The lengthened rig will hook as the Carp turns and aims for the next bait? The confidence concept of the lengthened rig intrigues me, as is it possible to have a hooklength material that the fish are not aware of? Notice I put question marks behind my theories as although they make sense in my mind are they valid in others? I think if I carried on with my thoughts I would be leaving behind the Complicated Rigs thread, as there seems to be a correlation between Baiting Patterns and rigs. Hence shorter rigs work on tight beds of bait and longer rigs work on more spread areas. In most cases the paternoster tail will give better bite indication, but its use is negated by, God Forbid, having to strike and even worse, sit right next to the rods.

Rob, I agree with you to a certain extent. The basics on a hair rig can be changed quite easily, length of hair, lengthen or shorten, attach it to the shank, the bend or the eye. The sliding hair invented by Rod Hutchinson I believe was the progression from a basic hair. At the same time I believe it was Roger Smith who came up with the Idea of the D-rig. With the D-rig where/how the D is fixed can be changed. I.e from the eye to the shank or from the eye up the hooklength. Now both rigs are just steps forward from the basic hair, and I don't think to be honest that there have been that many new Innovations since then. We have different types of Hook, short shank wide gape, Longshank, Inturned eye, outurned eye and various others. Nearly all use either the Line Aligner or the Knotless Knot and a basic hair. I think that in a way you have answered your own question without realising it. Get the Fish feeding comfortably on the Bait and a simple effective rig will catch them. :D

When it comes to Knot tying, the best knot I have found is the Uni Knot. The only time I have ever had one give way is when I've been forced to pull for a break. I use this on my mainline to the swivel, on my braided hooklengths and also my mono or fluorocarbon hooklengths. Like you I have problems tying a Grinner Knot, getting my fingers round the loop, but found the Uni knot gives as good knot strength With all knots just practice until you can get it right, the only reason I don't practice with the Grinner Knot is I have found a knot that I can consistently tie, that doesn't give way under stretch or stress associated with playing a fish. I don't need to Superglue my knots as I am happy with what I've got. Test every knot by pulling on the hook with either a Knot Tester or a pair of forceps on the shank of the hook, not your lips Neil. lol;)

I use Braid for the majority of my Hooklengths and don't suffer tangles. The Braid I use is Kryston Merlin or BFA Deception. Are you sure your tangles are on the cast or as you retrieve the line? You may find as braid is so supple it just falls in a coil around the lead, and it tangles as you reel in. Make sure the length of tubing you use is about 10centimetres longer than your hooklength. On the swivel to the hooklength cover the knot with about a centimetre of tubing, either silicone tubing or shrink tubing. This will push the hooklength away from the mainline. Also use a stringer, this helps to keep the hooklength away as well. The Superstiff coating Mick recommends is another great way of creating a Concertina effect, almost an extending hooklength.

Right the layout of the Res is this. It is split into 2 arms, one going roughly North/South, one going roughly East/West. The 2 join at the Dam Wall, which does have an Aerator. At the northern end is another smaller dam, and there are several smaller dams along the edges. There are also several inflow pipes from the Sewage Treatment works on one side. Near the Dam Wall is the area where the Sailing Club have their HQ. The northern end, the only section that I have seen fish so far, where I found them attempting to Spawn at the start of May. This arm stretches for about 11/2 miles, (admittedly worked out by time taken to walk length). There is some bankside cover at the far end of the North Arm, trees, but some of it is open. I have climbed as many trees as I safely can, and found some very good possible spots. The Dam at the North end has an area of water that goes from 4feet at the shallowest to depths that I have found of 12 feet, although I have only managed to fish it 4 times. There is prolific weed growth, Silkweed, Canadian Pondweed and some others. I have walked all along the North Arm, which seems to be the least crowded. In 4 trips I have caught 2 Carp and about 8/9 Bream. The Carp weighed 13.8 and 24.12. All I can say is that that is a start. Every fish came on Boilies as I have a feeling that the Carp are taking such large Patrol Routes that I need a Bait to be in the water for a long time. This idea is due to I have followed the Wind and I caught on night 3 of a 3 night session. I may be wrong in this, but I have not caught on single overnighters or 2 night sessions. I have looked all along the Northern Arm for fish every time I have set up on any trip, and have so far always followed the wind pushing into it. While I would happily use a Natural if I could see Carp, the sheer numbers of Bream and Perch make this very difficult. I have got Carp feeding over Pellets and Particles, that I spodded out into what I think was a fish made clear patch in the weed. Any more ideas?

Sounds like a knotty problem! With a braided line never use a Blood Knot. It strangulates the line and causes it to 'go'. I prefer the Uni Knot for braids when tying to the swivel.

Steve (rip), to be honest I don't think you've gone off Thread, you've tried various rigs and methods to prove/disprove a point. I guess you just said in better and more proven terms what I've said on occasion. Locate the Fish Find a food that the Carp want to eat, present it in the right place, and you will catch. Hard waters; The only waters I think of as hard are those with limited stock in relation to their size. Try finding carp on a 167 acre reservoir. Complicated Rigs; Who needs them? just get the location and the food source right. Someday, someone will make me eat my words... lol;)

Commonhunter, I don't know about you, but I KNOW I'm mad. LOL:D . Riphunter, Tongue in cheek comment about your tackle being antique, merely a piece of wit and joviality. When I do a 2/3 day trip yes I do put my Century Sp's on the Buzzers and fish overnight, but anything I catch at night I treat as Bonus Fish. During the day I spend as much time as I possibly can stalking or fish locating... Like you if it won't go in my JRC stalking bag I don't need it. An unhooking mat for a seat, a net that I bought when I was 14, that makes it 21years old, and my Stalking rod. Admittedly that's only about 5years old, because I had a load of gear stolen from my flat. A Daiwa Pro Specialist 11/2lb 11.6 rod that is happy casting freelined floaters and fishing a float 'lift' style. When I can justify it I may buy a 'proper' stalking rod. The number of fish I have caught about 2-3 foot from the bank is far more than I have caught with 'Long Casts' and rods on the buzzers. I used to fish every night after work with just my stalking tackle and regularly caught 6-7 fish in a couple of hours either on floaters or naturals. My 28lb personal best was caught in a 21/2 hour 'session' between work and college. Getting 'up close and personal' I have found that I learn so much more than just sitting behind rods. How fish feed, how they check the bait, just 2 of the things you can see. As for being a proper Carp Angler, I reckon I just about qualify, but only on the numbers of fish I have caught. :D Nick

Steve (ripslider) Again Thanks. My point as well. I much prefer to stalk Carp with basic Tackle and Rigs, although I not quite as Antique as you and your Tackle. Lol:p Seriously my normal stalking method is Lift Float and a Slightly weaker hooklength. I too have found that I can catch as many fish in 4/5 hours fishing than many do in 48hours and often the average size of mine is bigger. I remember a particular occasion at Taverham Mills. My mate Bruce and I arrived at 4 in the afternoon and set up for overnight. He hooked and landed a small double at about 4 in the morning. From 8 oclock to 4 in the afternoon I ended up with 8 fish caught on floaters and Lift Float, the biggest going 17.10. That week there were only 12 fish caught from Saturday to Saturday and I had the most and the biggest of the week. As for using my Century Sp's and Aerlex's, I do that at night when I cast out to continue fishing, after spending as much time looking/stalking fish in the daytime. I know a lot of the theory behind 'Complicated' rigs , but find that in most cases get the fish feeding comfortably and my basic standard rigs work as well as the all singing, all dancing swivel knotted, line aligned, looped fluorocarbon/braid untwisted combi rig. :D

Just a thought to add to this. I know we all have our favourite simple rig that works for us, but any rig tied on Super Mantis, Snakebite or any of the coated Braids is fishing a rig that is more complicated than standard. I know by definition a Combi rig is Advanced and complicated, then look at the Coated Braids. If you fish with the Coated Braid/multistrand rig and remove any part of the coating to create a different effect, then surely you are not fishing with a simple standard rig? I am quite happy fishing Braid with Leadcore or tubing as it prevents tangles, but to use a Coated Braid, the stiffness kicks it away from the Mainline if you are not using tubing or leadcore. Then fishing the last part of the Coated Braids with a hinge/stripped section makes it a 'complicated/advanced' rig.

nicb I agree with most of your thoughts, although I am a firm believer in getting the fish to "enjoy" eating your bait. Once they do that their guard is lowered so often a simple conventional rig will score. As a result I end up the majority of the time using Bottom Baits. I did have an "In yer Face" brightly topknotted Snowman on one rod Sunday as the fish had been spawning and I wanted a visible bait to attract their attention as they left the spawning area, but this is a rarity. I do not rely solely on one rig. I do experiment and try out different things, but often find that I end up going back to my simple size 6/8 Line Aligned Braid Hair Rig, which works on the majority of waters I have fished. I will state though, that I do not fish heavily fished pressurized waters. If I did then i would probably experiment more. As for going on, from the standard hair rig, then the next step is the sliding hair, the D-rig, Savay Loony tube extension, and so on. Don't get me wrong I know there are many more up to date rigs than that, but these are just progressive steps on from the original concept of the "basic" Hair. How many fish would we catch just by going on by going back in time to some of these rigs?