Food source basemix

[Grodslok]

My dutch mate just sent me a covid care package, with rolling tables and a bunch of ingredients (krill and fishmeals, some liquids, and a bag of krill basemix) to get me up and running.

The store-bought mix is 5 kg of Nothern Baits Krillers, thought it'd be good for rolling practice and prebaiting, but when it runs out I hope I'll be doing my own blend, with wich I'm going to need some help.

I'm looking for a reasonably easy mix, high nutritional value food stuff, no overly exotic ingredients, and some tips on how to tweak it between freebies, hookbaits, general variety, and so on.

Starting point for a 1 kg mix;

200g fishmeal

170g krill meal

200g semolina

200g maize flour

100g chickpea flour

50g krill or liver hydro

10g salmon oil

20g banana or tutti frutti powder (MVDE groundbait flavour powder)

50g robin red.

 

The above is ingredients I already have. I also have an abundance of wholegrain buckwheat flour, since the wife is gluten intolerant, could definetly replace the chickpea.

Local shops stock a bunch of liquids, dips and glugs from Northern Baits (been ogling their banana, BNB and Milky Amino liquids a while), and some stuff from Tandem Baits, Sticky Baits, and the shop's own un-branded GLM and other hydros and bait dips.

Please adjust the levels and ingredients freely. 

I'm assuming a high-attract hookbait would get an extra dollop of hydros and flavours, and some egg albumen for a better chance with the crays?

[Grodslok]

Further questions;

Are fresh ingredients (for example blitzing some shrimp, or fish offal to a fine mush) any use, or will it just cause boilies to roll poorly and/or rot? 

How much of larger particles can one add before they roll poorly? (Seeing some of you adding nijer seeds, ground nuts, etc). 

Is there an FAQ for rolling issues I've missed? For example "balls collapse; too much oil, or too large sausage. Balls break up when cooking; mix too coarse" and so on.

[salokcinnodrog]

8 hours ago, Grodslok said:

Further questions;

Are fresh ingredients (for example blitzing some shrimp, or fish offal to a fine mush) any use, or will it just cause boilies to roll poorly and/or rot? 

How much of larger particles can one add before they roll poorly? (Seeing some of you adding nijer seeds, ground nuts, etc). 

Is there an FAQ for rolling issues I've missed? For example "balls collapse; too much oil, or too large sausage. Balls break up when cooking; mix too coarse" and so on.

One of the best boilie mixes going was liquidised squid, liquidised liver and semolina to bind it. 

Unfortunately you will have to play around with binder amounts to get it to roll. 

Dynamite baits I think it was, also did a fresh fish range with no egg, just using the fish as the attractor. 

Various bird foods can be ground up to powder to bind and attract. You can also use chick crumb (young chick feed), and from memory there is a source of fishmeal in there, so don't feed it to sheep or cattle

[Grodslok]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

One of the best boilie mixes going was liquidised squid, liquidised liver and semolina to bind it. 

Unfortunately you will have to play around with binder amounts to get it to roll. 

Dynamite baits I think it was, also did a fresh fish range with no egg, just using the fish as the attractor. 

Various bird foods can be ground up to powder to bind and attract. You can also use chick crumb (young chick feed), and from memory there is a source of fishmeal in there, so don't feed it to sheep or cattle

I might experiment a bit then, just for fun. When we've had shrimps for dinner, I blitz the shells and heads and mix with cheese curl flour. Good groundbait additive for chub. 

Any major adjustments to the basemix recipe above I ought to consider? 

[salokcinnodrog]

I can't see any faults with your base mix; nutrition and  attraction are covered. 

Krill may be an issue, not because it is a bad ingredient, but because it can be very light and make baits float

[Grodslok]

50 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I can't see any faults with your base mix; nutrition and  attraction are covered. 

Krill may be an issue, not because it is a bad ingredient, but because it can be very light and make baits float

Right, skewing the mix a bit more towards fishmeal for starters, and then start experimenting. Upping the krill might turn them into wafters, with enough fiddling, I guess? 

Thanks!

[Carpbell_ll]

1 hour ago, Grodslok said:

Right, skewing the mix a bit more towards fishmeal for starters, and then start experimenting. Upping the krill might turn them into wafters, with enough fiddling, I guess? 

Thanks!

Might not roll if you put too much of something in sure their is a inclusion list on-line that shows the maximum levels of single ingredients per kilo mix and what the results will be if too much is used, think it was a CC Moor list.

I'd try some of the other Haiths stuff, robin gold really is something else the fish love it. 

[Grodslok]

I'm having some trouble bending my head around how to balance the wet ingredients. Dry parts, simple; weigh, blend, then take whatever you need to the egg mix. 

1 kg base mix goes to what, roughly 8 eggs. Do you include the oils and hydros in the 1 kg of base mix, or is it added to the 1 kg of dry parts? 

Reasonably simple for 1 kg batches, but when you do 1 or 4 egg fractions it's a bit more fiddly.

[framey]

Powder with powders except dyes I have found

liquids with liquids

roughly 100-130g of dry per egg  but that depends on mix 

there is no science to it it’s all bait woolly lol

[Grodslok]

11 minutes ago, framey said:

Powder with powders except dyes I have found

liquids with liquids

roughly 100-130g of dry per egg  but that depends on mix 

there is no science to it it’s all bait woolly lol

Yeah, I was just being thick; the amount of liquid additives are so small it doesn't really matter either way. Lots of new stuff to cram into my skull.

[hutch]

On 01/05/2021 at 22:37, Grodslok said:

200g fishmeal

170g krill meal

200g semolina

200g maize flour

100g chickpea flour

50g krill or liver hydro

10g salmon oil

20g banana or tutti frutti powder (MVDE groundbait flavour powder)

50g robin red.

 

So first up work out your liquids and powders seperately, if i am looking at doing a recipe i will work quantities out based on 1 kilo of powdered mix.

Looking at the above powders 200g fishmeal is good you can go to 300g if you wanted, the Krill maybe to high depending on how good the krill meal is, as Nick alluded to it can make the bait float if to much is added (some shrimp meals can have the same effect), Semo, Chickpea & Maize are all doing the same job pretty much.  There is not much in the way of soluble ingredients in there look at CSCP 90 if your building a fishmeal most common inclusion is around 10% (or 100g), I would want some form of CLO type product in there and possibly some milks (300g Fishmeal and 50g WPC 80 pretty much cover the daily requirements nutritional wise).  Fruit powders tend to be very potent there usual inclusion is around the 5g mark per kg 20g could well be overkill.  50g RR is fine you might adjust depending how red you would like the finished bait (although RR is not what it was try and located some Kingfisher Red will save you some cash).

Liquids look fine 50ml Hydro and 10ml of Oil .

Number of eggs can vary on the mix 6-8 Large Eggs normally serves a kilo of bait

On 05/05/2021 at 11:42, Grodslok said:

Are fresh ingredients (for example blitzing some shrimp, or fish offal to a fine mush) any use, or will it just cause boilies to roll poorly and/or rot? 

They work, the problem is if you add to much the mix will be tricky to roll.

 

On 05/05/2021 at 11:42, Grodslok said:

How much of larger particles can one add before they roll poorly? (Seeing some of you adding nijer seeds, ground nuts, etc). 

Depending on how course your mix is before adding you could get away between 10-20%  

 

[Grodslok]

1 hour ago, hutch said:

So first up work out your liquids and powders seperately, if i am looking at doing a recipe i will work quantities out based on 1 kilo of powdered mix.

Looking at the above powders 200g fishmeal is good you can go to 300g if you wanted, the Krill maybe to high depending on how good the krill meal is, as Nick alluded to it can make the bait float if to much is added (some shrimp meals can have the same effect), Semo, Chickpea & Maize are all doing the same job pretty much.  There is not much in the way of soluble ingredients in there look at CSCP 90 if your building a fishmeal most common inclusion is around 10% (or 100g), I would want some form of CLO type product in there and possibly some milks (300g Fishmeal and 50g WPC 80 pretty much cover the daily requirements nutritional wise).  Fruit powders tend to be very potent there usual inclusion is around the 5g mark per kg 20g could well be overkill.  50g RR is fine you might adjust depending how red you would like the finished bait (although RR is not what it was try and located some Kingfisher Red will save you some cash).

Liquids look fine 50ml Hydro and 10ml of Oil .

Number of eggs can vary on the mix 6-8 Large Eggs normally serves a kilo of bait

They work, the problem is if you add to much the mix will be tricky to roll.

 

Depending on how course your mix is before adding you could get away between 10-20%  

 

Thanks! 

Aside from CSCP90 (which seems to be some business management certificate flooding my searches), it's much clearer now. 

I'll do some adjustments, see what ingredients I can get my hands on, and then see how stuff turns out.

[Grodslok]

Ah, found it. So, predigested fishmeal for solubles, and high protein meal for foodstuff? 

 

[hutch]

3 hours ago, Grodslok said:

So, predigested fishmeal for solubles, and high protein meal for foodstuff? 

 

Making a bait is about balance, ings are mainly broken down into non soluble, soluble and semi soluble.  You can usually make a bait between 15-20% soluble, as the water works it way into the boilie all the good stuff from your liquids and soluble ings is push out into the water and that is what will trigger the carp to investigate, the rest come into play when the bait is eaten.  The key is balance if you aim for around 35-40% protien content is a general mark most people work to.

[Carpmaster]

On 05/05/2021 at 11:42, Grodslok said:

Further questions;

Are fresh ingredients (for example blitzing some shrimp, or fish offal to a fine mush) any use, or will it just cause boilies to roll poorly and/or rot? 

How much of larger particles can one add before they roll poorly? (Seeing some of you adding nijer seeds, ground nuts, etc). 

Is there an FAQ for rolling issues I've missed? For example "balls collapse; too much oil, or too large sausage. Balls break up when cooking; mix too coarse" and so on.

I use prawn and squid witch I liquidised myself and I have no rolling problems I just find it will go off quicker than a shop bought boilie but the natural pulling power better than any shop bought 

[Grodslok]

How much variation do you guys put in your baiting? Same recipe, but different colours and shapes, or a handful of different recipes? 

That is perhaps a moot point with the pressure on most venues, I guess, but for the waters with few enough anglers that "oh, it's that prat again, lets turn finnicky for a while" is a risk.

[salokcinnodrog]

3 hours ago, Grodslok said:

How much variation do you guys put in your baiting? Same recipe, but different colours and shapes, or a handful of different recipes? 

That is perhaps a moot point with the pressure on most venues, I guess, but for the waters with few enough anglers that "oh, it's that prat again, lets turn finnicky for a while" is a risk.

I tend to work on the same recipe, but as well as circular balls, I also include some 'sausages' which I can cut down to discs or shorter lengths. 

The flavour release attraction and breakdown from the cut down sections is faster than from boiled balls

[Grodslok]

3 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I tend to work on the same recipe, but as well as circular balls, I also include some 'sausages' which I can cut down to discs or shorter lengths. 

The flavour release attraction and breakdown from the cut down sections is faster than from boiled balls

Right, that seems easily done 

How much do you beef up the flavours for a high attraction hookbait? More towards x 1,5 or x 4 (compared to base recipe)?

[emmcee]

9 minutes ago, Grodslok said:

Right, that seems easily done 

How much do you beef up the flavours for a high attraction hookbait? More towards x 1,5 or x 4 (compared to base recipe)?

Why does it have to be beefed up? Why not try a washed out or flavourless hookbait,  it might just be more acceptable to a carp than a hi attract hookbait.  

[Grodslok]

55 minutes ago, emmcee said:

Why does it have to be beefed up? Why not try a washed out or flavourless hookbait,  it might just be more acceptable to a carp than a hi attract hookbait.  

Why? Oh that's simple; I haven't a clue what I'm doing, that's why 😁

I've got a tub of hard hookers, one of wafters, and some mixed popups. Poking your nose in either tub will singe your nostril hairs; they're quite potent. So yeah, I was assuming that hi-attract bait was one of the first things to try, along with a boilie straight from the bag, and popups, and washed-outs were more for pressured and wary carp. 

Gods, it's an entire jungle of new things to learn.

[Carpmaster]

On 11/05/2021 at 05:41, Grodslok said:

How much variation do you guys put in your baiting? Same recipe, but different colours and shapes, or a handful of different recipes? 

That is perhaps a moot point with the pressure on most venues, I guess, but for the waters with few enough anglers that "oh, it's that prat again, lets turn finnicky for a while" is a risk.

I use exactly the same match the hatch so to speak    My hookbaits have an amino food soak to beef them up so to speak but that is it

[Carpmaster]

20 hours ago, Grodslok said:

Why? Oh that's simple; I haven't a clue what I'm doing, that's why 😁

I've got a tub of hard hookers, one of wafters, and some mixed popups. Poking your nose in either tub will singe your nostril hairs; they're quite potent. So yeah, I was assuming that hi-attract bait was one of the first things to try, along with a boilie straight from the bag, and popups, and washed-outs were more for pressured and wary carp. 

Gods, it's an entire jungle of new things to learn.

The way things have been ive caught on match what’s going in but I don’t use flavours or colours what it is it is

[framey]

Who was it who said if you can smell it the flavour is over the top…

or words to that effect

 

i know John baker said it recently but someone said it before him must be some truth in it

Edited May 12, 2021 by framey

[hutch]

1 minute ago, framey said:

Who was it who said if you can smell it the flavour is over the top…

or words to that effect

 

He has a point to a degree the flavour market is a very mixed bag these days, in years gone by the rule of thumb was as quoted but some of the flavours on the market do little or nothing and some hold some attractive qualties.  Alkaline flavours seem to be able to be utilised at higher levels than a good acidic based flavour.  JB's flavours are generally very good quality and are highly concentrated so his low levels that he suggests are warranted.

   

[Carpbell_ll]

1 hour ago, framey said:

Who was it who said if you can smell it the flavour is over the top…

or words to that effect

 

i know John baker said it recently but someone said it before him must be some truth in it

i just had a few sessions with high flavour shelfies i really do think they are way over the top be going back to my cov gold next time  you could taste the chemical back note for days after handling those hit n run pop ups, nasty.