Lead sizes with running rigs

[sharpy86]

Whats your opinion on lead sizes for running rigs?

 

I'm currently using a 1.1oz square pear on my set-up, which consists of a Nash Run bead on 'naked' mono (i.e. No tubing, leadcore, leader), a 7-8inch coated braid hooklink (with 1/2" uncoated by the hook) to a size 8 SSC with double 15mm boilie on a long hair (10-15mm gap between bottom of the hook, and top of the first boilie). No line aliner or other tubing on the hook. It's as simple as it could ever be! This is then fished on a slack - semi slack line, with the amount of slack varying on the distance i'm fishing at - i.e. margins - as slack as physically possible, 60 yards+ - an obvious arc as the line enters the water, but not what many would consider slack.

 

3 bait stringer, mainly to stop the hair getting in a mess on the cast, and fished with a scattering of boilies.

 

However, I don't seem to be getting great hookholds - normally only just in the scissors. There was clearly some tearing on the first and only fish I have caught in 2014 - obviously where the hook hadn't taken hold properly, and slipped during the fight.

 

So, my thinking is that the 1.1oz lead is really not heavy enough to pull the hook home when the fish picks up the bait (I know that the lead will slide up the line, and doesn't really act exactly as a bolt rig).

 

Anyone got any opinions on the lead size at all?

Or think i'm rediculous for such a long hair?

 

p.s. The reason for the double boilie is to avoid the large heards of bream - which seems to be doing the trick.

[blanksalot]

I don't do light leads anymore , nothing under 3 oz now, just seemed to get done more on lighter ones last season.

 

I do like running rigs but the lead needs to be like an anchor hence the heaver weight.

 

Had fish kite a long way before indication before, probably dragging the lead rather than pulling through it.

 

If it's your first fish on that setup it's not conclusive why the hook slipped, or even if there was an issue with the mechanics at all,

 

make one change at a time is all i'll advise.

 

starting with a big old lead

[sharpy86]

It's not my first fish on this set-up, i've had a fair few 20lb+ fish over the last couple of years. But I don't remember thinking one was a really good hold.

 

I was thinking of using a 4oz lead

[grangemilky]

I think your lead is more than suitable, as long as you are using a light indicator, and unrelated to the hookhold. How long is the hair, and where does it separate from the hook?

 

What in getting at, is try a shortish hair, with a piece if silicone holding the hair to oppasite where the barb would be.

I've had some horrific hook holds with long hairs an 'KD' rigs.

[grangemilky]

Sorry I should have read more, you did explain...

 

The lead plays no part in the position if the hookhold one bit IMO. Even on a 4oz inline, with a 3 inch hooklink, I think the hook has pricked before the weight if the lead is touched. All the lead does is drive the hook in further.

 

IMO the problem is all in the length and position of the hair.

[newmarket]

I find a lead of 2.5 oz or heavier is better . Cant explain the physics behind it but Nick did explain to me once , something about a tunnel ????

 

Sharpy , how do you go about slackening your line off , i find it majes a big difference ?

I tend to cast , tighten down to the lead and then slacken off a foot or so at a time whilst holding the rod pointing upwards .

Takes about 30 to 40 minutes but its worth it and improves indication no end ...

[grangemilky]

Problem with a heavy lead and a running rig IMO is that the lead DOESNT move.

 

A nice light lead, as long a the resistance of pulling the indicator to the top is less weight, then you will get indication before the lead moves. Once the indicator is at the top the lead may well move, but at which time you have had more than enough positive indication to have lifted into it.

 

 

With a heavy lead, even when the indicator is at the top, it will be less resistance for the reel to start giving off line, and the lead stay completely still. You can end up with a fish running 40 yards one way before you get to it, the fish will one way....your lead will be 40 yards in a different direction in the middle of your line!

That''s my story anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

[grangemilky]

If you had the clutch set tight, the fish would be at stale mate, indicator fully at the top, and able to kite in a complete semi-circle without any more indication.

[sharpy86]

Thanks all,

 

So rig is knotted with about 7-8 turns knotless style, when pulled down tight, its pretty far up near the eye. I currently don't use any silicon or rings on the hook, and as stated, there is about a 10-15mm gap between the bottom of the hook and the first boilie. I was suffering pretty terribly with hook pulls (Gaz will confirm this, although I still caught more than anyone else  ), until i tried the longer hair.

 

Indicators are the smallest Muddy Waters old skool bobbins, with cord rather than chain - light as you can get.

Clutch is set on about medium - I may try loosening that a bit.

 

Slackening off - My rods are normally raised up at the front on sticks / pod, rather than pointed down to the lake. Cast out, pull tight, then slacken off slowly overtime until it sinks under its own weight. Keep slackening off until i just end up with droops between the eyes. Then finally tighten up slightly to remove the unneccesary slack between eyes. Clip on bobbins.

 

My thinking with the light lead was that it would bounce along the bottom as the carp swim away - setting the hook, and being a bit different to what everyone else is using.

[matt_89]

I think your lead is more than suitable, as long as you are using a light indicator, and unrelated to the hookhold. How long is the hair, and where does it separate from the hook?

 

What in getting at, is try a shortish hair, with a piece if silicone holding the hair to oppasite where the barb would be.

I've had some horrific hook holds with long hairs an 'KD' rigs.

This was also my first thought. My thinking being the closer the hook to the bait the further into the carps mouth it will travel before being ejected.

[smufter]

I always fish a running rig, and use the lightest leads I can get away with for the given situation.

For instance, at Stream Valley, I can actually get away with a lead of under an ounce as it's a very narrow lake and not much of a chuck to be fishing the far margin. 

Biggest lead I ever use is about an ounce, wherever I fish. 

I have never struggled with hook holds, 

Have you got line clips on your rods? If you have, can I suggest you use them (that's assuming you aren't already?).

Not only do they tidy up the angle of the line going from your reels to your bobbins, but I find that extra "ping" as the fish pulls the line from the clip helps set the hook. 

My old rods (Chubs) had line clips fitted to them as standard. My new rods (Free Spirits) don't, so I purchased a couple off of ebay and have fitted them. I think they really do make a difference.

The other good thing about clipping up is that if you are distracted at all, for whatever reason, and you miss a take, one glance down at your rods will show you whether you have had one by token of the fact that the line is now out of the clip. You don't have to pull the line right down to the bottom of the clip, but just enough that there is a bit of resistance before your line releases.

These are the ones that I purchased, come in a pack of three (always useful  ) and are dead simple to fit.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Greys-Universal-Line-Clip-Pack-Of-3-GALC010-/390765864727?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item5afb75e717

Edited May 22, 2014 by smufter

[newmarket]

Surely the idea of running lead set ups is that the fish feel NO resistance on the pick up and swim off with their mouthful .

Meaning you have to set the hook yourself by "striking" or "lifting" into the take .

If you wanted the fish to hook itself then get the lead clips out

 

My take on sharpys original question is , seeing as you have to set the hook yourself , you want your bite indication to be as "spot on" as possible .

And the SOONER you set the hook , the better the hook hold is liable to be ?

 

Therefore i think the lead DOES make a difference to hookholds and because you dont want the lead moving as the fish takes the bait it makes sense to use the HEAVIEST lead you can get away with .

 

Tin hat on ...

[smufter]

I was always told that as soon as my line starts flying out, the hook is already set?

Isn't the idea of the hair rig that the fish hooks itself the second it tries to blow out the bait???

That's what I was told anyway???

The slight resistance felt by the fish as it pulls the line out of the clip just buries the hook a little deeper?

Or am I speaking total and utter ballcocks.

[newmarket]

Lets see how this develops , i know milky will be along with his sixpence worth .

In the meantime im going to look few some old threads .

I dont think your talking ballcocks smiffy , but i definitley dont believe that that hook is set straight away . Lets see

[matt_89]

The initial 'bite' from the hook would be caused by the fish trying to eject the hook.

 

This would be enough for the line to peel from the spool as the fish runs with no resistance.

 

Then as you strike this would set the hook down to the curve.

 

That's always been my thinking with running rigs anyway.

 

I don't think the lead will have much influence as the hooks initial grab happens before this.

 

As previously said, I could also be completely wrong though...

[smufter]

The initial 'bite' from the hook would be caused by the fish trying to eject the hook.

 

This would be enough for the line to peel from the spool as the fish runs with no resistance.

 

Then as you strike this would set the hook down to the curve.

 

You say it so much better than me!

By using the rod clip to give that initial resistance, it has the same effect as you lifting into the take to to set the hook properly.

Doesn't mean you now don't have to pick the rod up, but I have it firmly in my head that using the rod clip will assist in a better hooking of the fish.

[androoooo]

My understanding of running rigs is that you're not relying on the lead to do the hooking. So weight is irrelevant except to get the distance, guide the line and provide resistance to the bobbin to give indication. Using a heavier lead can cause more problems getting plugged in silt, light weed or clay and clog the run ring effectively creating a bolt rig.

 

If you re getting takes, I'd probably look at the rig and tweaking it as you're obviously doing something right. You say you've tried longer hairs, how much longer? Have you tried doubling the seperation? Say 5mm at a time? If your catching it's probably minor changes that will make a difference so whether it's hook, hair, line alined do it one at a time so you understand what's been changed and the effect it has.

[newmarket]

Theres a running rig / semi fixed thread in the past hot topics which is excellent .

I still think weight of lead IS relevant in this thread

Edited May 22, 2014 by newmarket

[smufter]

I still think weight of lead IS relevant in this thread

  :roll:    

[grangemilky]

Surely the idea of running lead set ups is that the fish feel NO resistance on the pick up and swim off with their mouthful .

Meaning you have to set the hook yourself by "striking" or "lifting" into the take .

If you wanted the fish to hook itself then get the lead clips out

 

My take on sharpys original question is , seeing as you have to set the hook yourself , you want your bite indication to be as "spot on" as possible .

And the SOONER you set the hook , the better the hook hold is liable to be ?

 

Therefore i think the lead DOES make a difference to hookholds and because you dont want the lead moving as the fish takes the bait it makes sense to use the HEAVIEST lead you can get away with .

 

Tin hat on ...

...IMO of course...your line isn't coming to budge an inch at your indicator untill the hook has pricked. So by that, the lead can have no impact on the positioning of the hookhold.

 

As has been mentioned previously, with the line in the ridclip, will give a sudden jot to bury the hook further.

 

That said, the resistance of the line through the water as the fish tries to move off, will push the hook home. IMO if line is comming off your spool, no matter how loose your spool is, the hook is pushed right in, and it's the positioning of the initial prick that decides if its going to be a good hookhold or not.

 

The resistance of a fluro, or sinking braid through water is much higher, and IMO gives better hoiking potential.

It's all speculation on my behalf, and I'm not an expert on fluid dynamics, but I personally don't like running rigs with mono!

[sharpy86]

My understanding of running rigs is that you're not relying on the lead to do the hooking. So weight is irrelevant except to get the distance, guide the line and provide resistance to the bobbin to give indication. Using a heavier lead can cause more problems getting plugged in silt, light weed or clay and clog the run ring effectively creating a bolt rig.

 

If you re getting takes, I'd probably look at the rig and tweaking it as you're obviously doing something right. You say you've tried longer hairs, how much longer? Have you tried doubling the seperation? Say 5mm at a time? If your catching it's probably minor changes that will make a difference so whether it's hook, hair, line alined do it one at a time so you understand what's been changed and the effect it has.

I'll be here in 3 years time with the amount of fish I get out of this lake

 

I think it is physically impossible for the fish to not feel some sort of resistance on the take. Even if you had the bail arm open, I think that having the line travelling through an eye is going to offer much more resistance than we would like. However, I think that what a running rig really does help with is stop the fish from using the weight of a lead to shake the hook out after it has been pricked.

 

This has really divided opinions, and I'm still not sure which side of the fence I want to be on.

[androoooo]

I'm sure there is resistance and probably more than we would like. I tend to have a quite simple view on it that run rigs don't use the weight of the lead as the primary means of setting the hook. A lead clip set up relies much more on the lead setting the weight and so weight of lead really does play a role with hook holds. A 5oz lead will do a much better job securing a hold and holding it against a carp shaking their head.

[sharpy86]

Hi Androooo, my comment on the resistance wasn't aimed at you specifically, I was quoting you in regards to your comment about changing 1 thing at a time

 

I can see both sides of the arugment / approach, hence why I created this thread.

 

I also think that Grangemilky is right in saying that the lead doesn't actually determine where the hook first pricks the fish, therefore, I may need some work on my rig.

 

I do however like Smuftys idea of rod clips - my free spirits where made without them also.

[smufter]

 

I do however like Smuftys idea of rod clips - my free spirits where made without them also.

 

I would not use rods without them now....

 

And don't forget that the lines resistance through the water is also going to help set the hook.

[buzzbomb]

I use only running rigs and 3oz leads now. I used to vary weights to have the lightest possible while still holding in the current but have since decided it doesn't matter and bought bulk 3oz bell sinkers from the US to save money. Even if 3oz doesn't help hooking when the fish first starts moving it probably does when you lock down on it. Naturally I still carry a good selection of lighter weights in case I want to do something else, but they don't see much use.