The turner rig

[carpepecheur]

Jerome Moisand has produced and watched many hours of underwater carp videos and has come to the conclusion that anti eject rigs do not work. He argues that the force of water when the carp blows out just pushes everything in front of it.

 

I did some tests by sucking and blowing water into a glass tube testing various rigs and came to a similar conclusion. I tried to find a way to ACTIVELY turn the hook when a carp sucks in and came up with the idea of "The Spinner" which has already been described here

 

I was very disappointed when I missed my very first run using "The Spinner" but since then it has proven to be an effective hooker. However there are some reservations regarding it. It has been suggested that it provides the possibility of hooking outside the mouth before it is sucked in. I have never seen this in practise or in tank tests but the worry still remains.

 

The other reservation is that, every time a new bait is needed a fresh rig has to be tied. This can be a bit of a pain.

 

In an effort to prove Jerome wrong, I came up with a second ACTIVE hook turning rig which I call "The Turner"

 

The following diagram shows how to tie it:-

 

 

 

The next diagram shows "The Turner" in use. First a bait is mounted on a loop of dental floss and held in place with a boilie stop. The two ends of the floss are then used to tie the bait onto the rig ring on the hook. The idea is that as the carp sucks in the bait, the bristle comes against the lip of the carp and starts to turn. There is little likely hood of the point penetrating on entry as it enters bend first. Once inside the mouth, the hook is in an aggressive hooking position when the carp blows out. But in addition to this, if the end of the bristle also goes inside the mouth, it will stop the carp easily ejecting the hook.

 

 

This is very much at the idea stage as I have yet to test it in the lake. I fish a clean bottom, with my bait inside a PVA bag so tangles on casting are not an issue. This is my first attempt at tying the rig.

 

 

 

I would appreciate any helpful comments.

[lupouluke]

used this rig a while back now and was getting a lot of runs but not hitting into the fish ... the bristle does work and dont get me wrong this is an effective rig but you got to choose what size fish you want before setting it up ... the longer the bristle the bigger the fish and even when the big fish do come along whats to say there going for your hook bait ... must say you tied it much better than myself so you probably have much more success i have managed an 11lb mirror and a few dumpy single figure commons on this rig again i feel i couldnt catch much bigger as i was using a short bristle and the carp where easily disposing the hook.

[liamclose]

Keep things simple. To be honest that rig looks terrible to me.

[iambunn]

I quite like the principle and it actually looks fairly simple, but as for effectiveness I'm not so sure. Worth a go though, and may not do any harm to incorporate a small length of stiff bristle in any of your rigs if you believe it works.

[carpepecheur]

used this rig a while back now and was getting a lot of runs but not hitting into the fish ...

 

I have a habit of reinventing the wheel. Does the rig you used have a name?. I agree with you about the length of the bristle. I will need to experiment.

 

Keep things simple. To be honest that rig looks terrible to me.

 

I totally agree with the KISS principle but this is a standard stiff rig with the hook link cut short and a supple length added.

 

Why does it look terrible?

 

I quite like the principle and it actually looks fairly simple, but as for effectiveness I'm not so sure. Worth a go though, and may not do any harm to incorporate a small length of stiff bristle in any of your rigs if you believe it works.

 

Yes it is very easy to tie but your last words are so true. You must have faith. As far as I am concerned the jury is still out

[Gaz]

how weird is that, last week a mate was saying that is the only rig he uses now, then it pops up on here. to me it is just another overcomplicated rig thats there to catch the angler. in all honesty there probably aint a rig out there that works how we think it does, including the one you just put up. do people honestly think that all these "known" carpers use all these complicated rigs?

[liamclose]

The known carp anglers do so well because they have good water craft, lots of time and bait and are fishing the best lakes in the country! Rigs are secondry when you get the most important things right! Location, time and effort! Simple

 

Imo for as long as you rely on the lead to hook the fish theres not any rig out there that can stop the carp from getting away with it. When stalking ill watch a fish pick up my hook bait and strike before the lead even moves and hook them nine times out of ten. If i dont strike and wait for the lead to hook the fish they spit the bait vout 9 times out of ten , then iver keep munching as if nothings happend or just mooch of! If you put bells and wistles on the rig it wont help it just clutters things up!

[carpepecheur]

Overcomplicated does not mean it does not work.

 

I do not think it is over complicated anyway as I explained in my last answer above

 

I have no interest in what “known” anglers do except when they give me ideas.

 

It goes without saying that you need good watercraft to be successful but that does not excuse you from not using the best end rig you can.

 

Gaz said “in all honesty there probably aint a rig out there that works how we think it does” and I totally agree with that. I have watched hours of video where carp spit the bait out and now use a suction device to test my rigs in a tank. The first lesson I learned was that my favourite rigs did not work the way I thought they did. That is how I ended up with me current suggestion.

 

Liam hit the nail on the head when he said “If i dont strike and wait for the lead to hook the fish they spit the bait vout 9 times out of ten”. Exactly, that is my point. I want to change those odds to 8 out of 10 or even 7 out of 10.

 

I appreciate your comments guys. The question I have is, “is there anything wrong in my reasoning how I think it will work?”

[garysj01]

One question i always ask myself, how can you get a bait to act and go into a carps mouth in exactly the same way as a free offering? but i keep coming back to, you can't, simply because your hook bait has alien objects attached to it.

I do wonder how sensative a carps mouth is to touch, i also had a mess around with rigs and worked on the idea of a bait moving up as naturally as possible, the problem is the bait is always attached to a hooklink, so even if the carp doesnt feel the hook, it will feel the hooklink. Its a tricky one but i do applaud your efforts fella. The one i came up with many years ago was a stiff boom of 6 inches onto which i tied a ring. The hook was tied in a normal fashion with braid of about 2 inches long, also with a ring at the end. The hook was passed through the ring on the stiff boom, this presents a nearly feel free rig, the only problem was, was how would i present such a rig so it would be effective enough to work properly. Its easier if i re tie the rig and show you with a picture to be honest, its a little hard to explain.

[liamclose]

My point is for as long as we rely on the lead to drive the hook home when a fish takes the hook bait we are up against it. Imo you wont hook 7 or 8 out of ten pick ups with any rig in the world! Pressured fish impaticular are picking rigs up and rejecting them on a very regular basis far more than most people realise! The turner rig wont change that.

 

The reason i said it looks poor is because of ware the bait is mounted there no seperation between the bait and the hook which i think will make life easier for the fish!

[salokcinnodrog]

The most important thing with any rig is putting it in the right place, and getting the fish to feed in such a way that the bait is taken.

 

Those who rely on the lead to hook the fish are probably missing a lot of fish as the fish can get away with it most of the time.

 

I think in most cases, using a running lead with a slack line, you get indication whether a full blooded run in most cases, but a few bleeps if the bait is picked up and sussed.

 

 

The original name for the set-up pictured, when fished with a pop-up was the Swimmer rig, but by adding a bristle makes it a bristle rig.

 

 

I use a very similar set-up myself, with the ring as well, which gives me the option of changing hair length, but in my case I mostly fish a snowman set-up.

 

The bristle may help prevent the hookbait being ejected once it is in the mouth, but with a bottom bait, I think you need a fair bit of separation to get the hook and bait into the mouth, but play with that degree of separation dependant on the background feed (and bait if using particles).

 

As per the bristle, there have been a few variations, the bristle down the shank, or an "anchor" by the eye, a stiff piece of nylon going through a piece of tubing at right angles to the shank from side to side.

[carpepecheur]

Some very interesting responses here.

 

Gary, I understand what you say about a carp's mouth being sensitive to the hook length. With regard to the rig in question here, all I would say is that it is no more spooky than any other rig. Regarding the rig you alluded to, I will later PM you an old idea of mine on similar lines and perhaps we can compare notes (am away for a few days in the Carmargue at moment)

 

Liam, I think the tight line versus slack line is another (interesting) discussion. I am only thinking of using this rig with a bolt lead at the moment.

 

Regarding hair length, I disagree with you. If it is too long, the bristle will only turn the hook underneath the bait. I believe, if the bait is tight against the hook, the whole bait will turn leaving the hook in an aggressive position.

 

Salokcinnodrog (is that Welsh for something?), I googled "swimmer rig" but that seems to refer to having the rig ring on a D just above the hook eye. As far as I can work out, the "bristle rig" seems to be designed to make sure the hook comes out the same way it went in.

 

I have messed about with tube and a cross bristle to act like an anchor but that is not what I am trying to achieve here.

 

I am trying to get the carp to turn the hook through 90 degrees when it sucks in so that when it blows out the hook is alongside the boilie (and not underneath it) so that it has a good chance of catching hold. If, on top of that, all of the bristle goes inside the mouth, there is the added bonus of it being more difficult to eject.

 

I am still trying to find fault in that logic.

[rosstheangler]

Someone needs to invent a bluetooth hooklink so that the hook bait is as natural as a freebie.

 

I've no idea how but I'll leave that to all of you that have the time to mess about with such things.

[salokcinnodrog]

Some very interesting responses here.

 

Gary, I understand what you say about a carp's mouth being sensitive to the hook length. With regard to the rig in question here, all I would say is that it is no more spooky than any other rig. Regarding the rig you alluded to, I will later PM you an old idea of mine on similar lines and perhaps we can compare notes (am away for a few days in the Carmargue at moment)

 

Liam, I think the tight line versus slack line is another (interesting) discussion. I am only thinking of using this rig with a bolt lead at the moment.

 

Regarding hair length, I disagree with you. If it is too long, the bristle will only turn the hook underneath the bait. I believe, if the bait is tight against the hook, the whole bait will turn leaving the hook in an aggressive position.

 

Salokcinnodrog (is that Welsh for something?), I googled "swimmer rig" but that seems to refer to having the rig ring on a D just above the hook eye. As far as I can work out, the "bristle rig" seems to be designed to make sure the hook comes out the same way it went in.

 

I have messed about with tube and a cross bristle to act like an anchor but that is not what I am trying to achieve here.

 

I am trying to get the carp to turn the hook through 90 degrees when it sucks in so that when it blows out the hook is alongside the boilie (and not underneath it) so that it has a good chance of catching hold. If, on top of that, all of the bristle goes inside the mouth, there is the added bonus of it being more difficult to eject.

 

I am still trying to find fault in that logic.

 

Salokcin nodrog

 

Break it down backwards, surname to forename, hence Nick

 

I don't think that a hook is sucked in "backwards", and with the bristle it appears that the hook is being sucked in bend first, and relying on the bristle to push the hookpoint down.

 

Carp feed in a manner that the hair is a very useful part of the armoury. No hair, or very short means that the bait and hook can easily be ejected without any indication. Yet by adding a longer hair (as per Kevin Maddocks and Lennie Middleton), the bait is sucked in, and the hook follows naturally

 

 

Have a look at this, it may make some sense about hair positioning

[carpepecheur]

Salokcin nodrog

 

Now you sound like a Viking!

 

I would not like to argue with Kevin Madocks Nick. I bet he was told his hair rig was "overcomplicated" when he first publicised it!

 

From what I observe looking at under water footage and from my own tests using a suck and blow tube in a tank, when a carp goes into eject mode, it gags rather than spits. It is not like when you spit out a mouthful of foul tasting liquid it is more like when you gag on a fish bone. (I hope that makes sense!).

 

The bait is pushed out with all the water that was sucked in and the hook stays underneath the bait which interferes with it making a hookhold. Like you, I used to think that a longer hair would increase hooking chances but I have changed my mind as a result of the tests I have done.

 

So now in the words of Isak Walton "first catch your carp" (to prove the point)