hutch
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Posts posted by hutch
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These types of rumours are always very ambiguous mate
Sometimes they are mate, but when some one knows some of the elements in the equation quite well your salt in take can be reduced
Quotesoya and semolina (which happens to be the number one carp catching basemix of all time!
Semolina is a [censored] for then to process as they can't absorb anything from complex carbs, makes a good binder though. Errr not sure about your last bit mate
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with people in the trade not wanting there name associated with there bait & these are people behind the recipes
Not the first time I have seen mentions of bait company loosing some important people recently, last time they didn't name the company but did say some of the folk had gone to baitworks.
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They are a superb bait company and one of the most responsible around, the products get tested, re-tested, tested again, and then five more times for luck, they use ingredients which have been going into lakes for decades as well as some new forms of completely kosher vegetable derived proteins that they keep to themselves (as do Mainline, the Cell is also a vegetarian bait, as is Hybrid)
Just me mate there are no super hidden ingredients in the bait industry most are from the animal feed market, and there are no super veg protein ingredients in use (but there are a couple of good ones), Cell is mainly cereal meal the rest can be guessed as the ingredients are on the bag. Sticky are better at what they do for my money.
QuoteSome of you are stuck in the 90s when there were indeed some very dodgy baits about
In the 90's everything wasn't about hitting a price, fishmeal was a lot cheaper than it is now quality hasn't changed and so were high end refined milks which are now also super expensive, some of the best baits out there are still in there original form Essential B5, Premier Baits Fish Mixes, BFM, Trigga to name but a few, all still catch loads of fish a year. Dynamite went through a stage of using a lot of bread crumb in there mixes to cut them, Don't believe everything you read in the mags or see posted on bait companies catch reports a lot of them have not been caught on what they say they have, also alot of the Korda boys use Baitworks in there off screen fishing.
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I wasn't directing at you personally fella, I was more generalising about the state of the bait market in general 👍
QuoteI do trust Sticky when they say their preservative is ''natural'' as I believe it's just sugar
You might have seen Nick posting about some companies dipping there baits in glycerine which is essentially the above
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Nope not all components in a flavours make up are attractive to carp, but certain elements in some are.
QuoteI'm not into bait making mate, tried it and hate it
Fair enough, its not for everyone mate and is very time consuming, which some people just don't have
Quoteso many excellent readymades about, competitive market all push each other, fully trust a few bigger names
the old ready made debate is being covered in a another thread here, interesting topic for debate like i posted in there some ready mades are shocking and if I owned a water I wouldn't want some of those baits putting anywhere near my expensive investment in fish, even Gary Bayes says there is a slight nutrional hit with making readymades as you have to reduce the contents of the volatile ingredients (which are generally the ones you want more of) to achieve the a good shelf life, also what is shelf life couple of months to never go off. You are right there are a couple of people trying to do it right but that's just the preserving side of the argument.
There is also an argument over how long if ever these baits take to breakdown, lake are being drained to find kilos and kilos of boilies on the bottom that haven't broken down, Mark Pitchers experienced this when he drained Wainstone down, he'd had a guy heavily baiting with shelf life tuttis when he was clearing the bottom in the areas he had been fishing there was kilo's and kilo's of non broken down tutti's, kilos of rotting bait will end in a water quality issue eventually. You say big names but I have seen a lab analysis of ready made against the frozen version of a well known companies bait and they are very different, and this company had done a magazine article to claim this bait had x quantities of an element and the lab test showed half of that in the ready made.
Because of the competitive market you are sold the dream via the marketing hype but realities are sometimes different.
The main thing is you have found a company that your happy to part with your cash for so all is good.
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I don't agree that the best anglers stick with one bait, not a bit of it
I should have put a specific boilie, not bait, bait expands far beyond just the humble boilie, so they may stick to one boilie but will bring other items of bait in to play as and when they determine it is required. the best boilie mixes are generally balanced these days rather than being 1 specific type.
Quotedon't agree with how you overcomplicate things, I know of VERY experienced anglers who swear by certain flavours over others
Over complicate how ?? a carp is a carp right still has the same dietary requirements how it gets those can vary from water to water, I never said all flavours were useful just a high percentage, there are still some out there that are pretty good and companies blending them to a high standard, a good flavour has many chemical components scopex has around 15/16 from a good supplier and JB Plum has around 20+ I think, some of which are attractive to our cyprinid friends
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'hutch'' mate I saw what happened to my results by switching to non-fishmeals so that's good enough for me mate, results improved drastically and they loved the big name baits
If its working for you that's great confidence is key element to successful angling. I was just highlighting the fact that in respect of giving the fish something from the bait you are feeding them fish/meat based products are king, some of the nut products in use have there place as well to an extent.
QuoteI liked the nice smelling nutty baits and whether the carp liked them too or liked the chemorecepticalisationals, the effect was the same they loved it too
But they don't have a sense of smell mate, so pretty much all detection of items has to come via gustatory or chemoreception its the only way they a fish can detect what is food and what isn't, even a nut or bird mix will have something that appeals to them on 1 of those levels either via ingredients in the mix or liquid attractants.
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Like the others there is nothing like a good quality fishmeal to help the carp meet it's dietary requirements to keep them healthy. I have been on a water where they didn't really respond to fishmeals when I was there originally but I returned for a session last year and had 3 on a fish/liver bait.
QuoteIt was fun shopping about and a real eye opener as to what was out there, there are LOADS of terrific quality nutmix type baits about, birdfood milks, and fruit flavour blends
By flavour I guess you are meaning the overall smell of the bait ? , carp don't detect smell like humans do (some would argue they don't even smell as such but have a function is the equivalent), yes there some great mixes out there based on some of the above but they offer very little back to the fish in the way of nutritional value, there main function is for quick leakage of liquid based attractors. There greatest expanse of energy is when they feed so they will keep picking baits up that they think are food in hope it is giving them something back, but they wise up to the fact that they get nothing back from certain items eventually.
Also fruit and nut flavours can work on a fishmeal bait, some of the best fishmeals have a fruit flavour added to them BFM with cranberry springs to mind.
QuoteI drenched the lot in Mainline's superb liquids such as pineapple, and condensed coconut milk.
Never used these as they are not much more than glycerine and flavour with a dye added, just like the activators (before you ask I have seen lab analysis on the activators and there isn't really much to them unless you like paying for water).
QuoteI love the smell of these baits, the incredible digestibility and effectiveness of them, and I will probably never go back to the fishmeals now, they are a bit old hat and getting ever and ever more expensive now anyway.. I never expected such a dramatic uplift in catches after simply changing bait style/flavours.
That word again smell, it is how they smell to you as a human not the fish (how baits smell to humans is like a bait company jedi mind trick 😁), on a giving the fish something back argument there is nothing in use in the bait industry that betters some of the fish/krill/squid based meals on nutritional value for the fish. Also although you seem to be doing well at the minute and I hope you milk it for ever fish you can, from my experience these types of bait can tail off alot quicker. Also its down to how much you feel flavours play in the great bait puzzle, most offer very little
. Due to the lack of nutritional value in most of the above mixes they mainly disappear straight down the poop chute and end up getting crapped out all over your mat
QuoteI chose one or two from the list which I knew were working for others on the lake and not just for me
The best anglers on here you will find have 1 bait they have complete trust in and they keep to it, if your on 1 water and tend to stay on that water keeping to 1 bait and not over complicating it will work better than changing all the time to what is in vogue. That said if you are fishing multiple waters then a high attract bait can pay dividends.
QuoteIn summer, higher carbohydrate, birdfood baits with a quick leakage can produce more, the first nutritional requirement is energy, carbohydrates and fats. Protein for growth is not the first need!
Was lead to something recently Nick that suggested that they really struggle with the complex carbs that appear in some baits and there main sources of energy come from lipids and certain protein conversion, was from a good source but left me scratching my head so make of it what you will.
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This one could spin in ever decreasing circles for ever.
People making bait expands to a massive circle not just big companies any more, the problem from smaller start ups will be pressure from there buyers to have a shelf life option the required finance to get it right will out way the quick fix fill it full of potassium sorbate option, bigger companies have invested a little bit of time and money to get this right (some will still cut corners to hit price though) looking at alternative methods of making it work. Some one mentioned dates on some shelf life's and im guessing these are using a process that just prolongs the life of the bait to a point where the buyer will have used it.
There are companies that alter there mixes by reducing the amount of the volatile ingredients that cause it go off (are shelf life's different to freezer baits if your doing this they are), improving there system for removing the moisture and like Nick suggests a good dip in sugar would probably get long enough out of them.
For every company doing it right there is probably 2 doing it wrong, there are some baits I have seen pictures of that shouldn't be allowed to be put in the water, stories of lake owners netting there lakes and scoping up kilos and kilos of none broken down bait is not a good place to be in, if the lake water can't break them down what are the doing to the fishes digestive tract.
I have also seen lab analysis on company X bait, which is aimed at colder water and is said to contain a high lipid content than there fishmeal offerings but the lab report on the shelf life version showed percentages nowhere near what they had published in a mag. So the mag values must have been for the freezer bait option.
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The buoyancy in krill meal generally depends on how much shrimp meal its been cut with, I have seen baits that are pushing towards 20% with the right quality meal, in a commercial bait I doubt there is any more than 5% in there, like Pete Springate I currently use it at 10% in my current mix.
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4 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:
Shelf life baits have moved on from the high preservatives used in most years ago.
Most shelf life baits are now preserved with a glycerol sugar syrup rather than 'unnatural' preservatives. It is finding the companies that do use the same bait frozen as shelf life.
I used to think this way and i'm sure some people/companies do it better than others but there are some scary baits appearing on the market that are not much more than a lump of cereal meals and being preserved using preservatives that are no better than the ones from yester year. As with tackle there are money men floating round in the bait industry for a fast buck.
- yonny, B.C. and salokcinnodrog
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Some really good posts on this one and covered a lot of what I would have put. But I will through this in although i don't believe they require nutritionally anything different maybe there feeding elements are more sensitive/acute to specific elements, so outside of what has already been mentioned like calcium and sweet based ingredients/liquids, possibly certain organic acids (original scopex & banana flavours were based on n butyric both known for catching out commons), aniseed EO is another one.
QuoteScientifically proven that Leathers use energy a lot quicker than commons and mirrors and therefore need to feed at all times of the year as they wont store as much in reserve. So if you are targeting a leather in your lake, fish through winter for a better chance of catching it.
Never knew that Vic learn something new every day, with that in mind maybe a bait that has a good balance of carbs and protein would catch them out more as oppose to one that is mainly designed for its protein levels.
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Stretch your budget a little and read this. probably one of the most inspirational carp books you will pick up
http://www.littleegretpress.com/index.php?action=viewbook&id=162
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That's a belter that one chill
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Apologies that link appears to be broken unless you copy and paste it directly into a new tab or browser window and it is to late to edit the post. If anyone does want the pdf i can send them a direct link
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I almost always use shelf life bollies and have never had a issue
As one angler I doubt you would cause fish to go belly up so you would never see an issue, the issues highlighted are based around the long term use of preserved shelf life's on the aquatic environment of a water and also long term effects on the fish that are constantly exposed to preserved food.
Alot of the big companies process for making ready mades has altered, I think Nash reduce the amount of the ingredients that cause the bait to go off then put them through some form of advanced drying process to achieve the shelf life status. But alot of places are still going down the Potassium Sorbate based route using excess quantities to preserve longer.
Th other question about shelf life's, is down to the place you buy them from, how long has that bag been sat on the shelf, there are people that have known boilies to be sat in tackle shops for years, for me even a shelf life has a shelf life if you see what i mean
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I will leave these here, a link for the German paper that was done in 2008 if anyone is interested and the views from a very well known angler that has spent many years in and around the bait industry
QuoteA large quantity of shelf life baits are made from the human food waste. Common one is biscuit waste, Mcvittees produce tonnes of the stuff every day. This waste already contains pressurvatives, stablises and all manner of E numbers. It is often taken by big shelf life producing companies because it's so cheap less the £250 per tonne and can be easily combined with other ingredient into a paste that can quickly pass through any rolling machine. Even some of the big bait companies do not make their own shelf life baits but provide one of these company with a small amount of premix to add to whatever they are using at the time. So who actually knows what's going into these baits is anyone's guess and like I said early discusting.
Also knowing one of Nick's previous places of employment that handle several large bait firms contracts im sure he has seen some of the processes first hand.
As for me I don't trust anyone of the big players in the bait making industry the big boys are constantly coming up with gimmicks to extract our money
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Pigeon Conditioner, probably the most uk wide outlet i could find
QuoteAlso ... if your doing a fishmeal , birdfood or milk protein boilie , Do you have to change the semolina / soya base mix to a different base mix
I would say nearly every basemix out there has soya and semo at some level in it as they have function soya fats/oil and veg protein content and semo for its properties to bind doesn't offer anything nutritional really but has a function, the lines are very blurred these days as to what is an out and out mix of 1 variety or another, I would ignore the pigeon holing and look for a balanced solution, my main mix currently contains elements of all 3.
QuoteThe other confusing thing for Me is what type of flavour do you add to the different style of boilie ... its really confusing , And this is before I've even made any
No hard or fast rules here just the limits of your imagination, for example liver works brilliant in a birdfood bait but works in a fishmeal equally as well. Fruit flavours have been used in fishmeals for years and so on.
Hope that clears a few things up for you.
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Pet shop or farm shop should sell pigeon conditioner
The baileys can be a very good digestive aid so not all bad
Bait and seasons most of it is old wives tales mate, balance is the key to any recipe when wanting to use it all year round, what you have there will catch all year round in IMO, they will still eat fishmeal even during the coldest temperatures the problem is during the periods when the water is colder there metabolism slows right down which means if they eat a lot of fishmeal type products it takes them a lot longer to digest. Mr Hearn suggested as long as 2 weeks when he experimented with his pond fish. Also there diet seems to switch it more carbs/fats based due to the fact they get a faster energy hit from this type of ingredient.
So using your recipe if your really worried reduce the trout pellet content by 10-15% and use a combination of the soya, semo and baileys in equal measures to replace it and you have a winterised version :).
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I was just trying to make a mix out of what you already had, If you have any questions about making a proper base mix feel free to ask there are others on here not just me that will be able to help.
Spotted Fin, CC Moore, Haiths, British Aqua Feeds (my current main supplier), Feed Stimulants in Holland are all sources of good quality ingredients. Outside of that good asain supermarkets or farm supply stores are good places to source ingredients
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Boil as usual, 1.5minutes will probably get them firm enough, less if you want them softer longer if you want them harder.
Some birdfoods/CLO (my preference) does have breadcrumb as part of its make up as well as seeds etc ..., birdfoods have added benefit through there natural oil content, veg protein that some of them contain plus it helps with binding as well as giving your bait a bit of texture.
Shelf life boilies
in UK Bait and Bait Making
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