adamkitson

Ah makes sense! Have been told that Great Lake syndi places are like rocking horse dung! But that waiting list places on Church are usually offered at the next new year. (May have put my name down!)

Fair enough! Website makes it look like you can carp fish on a coarse day ticket. Ah well. Shall be there for the pike in the winter anyway.

Anyone know anything about this place as a day ticket venue? I know they have a syndicate, but off the syndicate there are a couple of pools, including the Great Lake that can be fished for carp on a day ticket. I've fished it for pike quite a few times, but as I'm getting back into carping and looking for day only sessions for a while it looks good to wet a line for the price of a £6 day ticket. The Great Lake is huge! I wouldn't expect it to be a bite a minute, especially with the limited hours that you can fish it, but it's a beautiful place. Just wondering if anyone knows anything. Worthwhile spots, although I've seen plenty of carpey looking areas, head of fish etc.

NICE! Hope to contribute to this thread myself in October! That 35 is stunning.

I think ready made rigs are good for people starting out. I personally moved away from them as my fishing developed enough to want to adjust rigs based on the fishing situation. I went from ready tied rigs, to tying a rig and having it on the rod before I got there, to having nothing on the rod these days as I wouldn't dream to be able to know how I would fish before getting to the water. In the same vein, I also used to pick a peg before I got to the lake, and fish it no matter what. Kind of the same really, deciding how to fish before getting a feel for the water on the day. Unless you know what will be going on based on conditions. i prefer to have a look round first and spend the 15 mins tying rigs and getting it right. My rigs these days are tied on the bank, and based on the conditions on a particular spot. Not possible with pre-tied rigs.

Helicopter rigs are awesome in my opinion! Very safe when set up correctly, and can be set up to hook the fish with the weight of the lead then allow the fish to run with less resistance. I use helis loads! For pop ups use chod rigs, which is really a helicopter rig altered and renamed! For bottom baits, choice is yours! I like combi rigs, and the helicopter set up allows you to use a stiffer boom section and not be so worried about chod and silt, so the bait kicks away from the rig well. Make sure you have enough knowledge to set up a helicopter rig safely though! Can be the safest rig in the lake, but can also be the most dangerous! If a break off happens and the mainline / leader can't pass through the ring swivel so the rig is the only thing left then you end up with a hooked fish that can't get rid of the leader but the weight is a meter or so away, making it more difficult to get rid of than if it were close to the mouth, and meaning the lead drags behind the fish or down through the water making a snag up more likely! A trailing leader may pass through a snag (not that I'd condone allowing that to occur either) but a training leader with a lead on the END of it may not!

I suppose the question is, how does the stiff section benefit the rig over just using a braid/coated braid? Anti tangle perhaps, but an anti tangle sleeve with some Pva nuggets for casting out would help. Does seem like over complication for no reason. I'm a +1 on the helicopter set up with a stiff hinged/combi rig in this situation. Combats the silt, hardly ever tangle, is super safe in terms of teathering. Why reinvent the wheel, unless there is a genuine good reason too? I've personally moved onto helicopter set ups for most of my fishing. They solve a lot of problems with very little compromise. Worth some thought I think.

Is it a bottom bait, pop up, or balanced? Also what rig material are you using, and how long is your hook link? Is the bait really thin? What hook size? To my mind, hair length just comes in with a whole other list of variables that affect rig mechanics, and one affects the other and so forth. its a bottom bait, the rig material is coated braid with abit stripped back by the hook. the length is probably slightly more than 4 inches the bait is probs slightly less than half a millimeter in thickness and the hook is a size 10 korda kurv shank hook. Wow, that is a thin bait!! With a 4 inch rig I wouldn't go too long on the hair. The bait hasn't far to move before it will hit resistance and you don't want the whole lot being pulled back out of the mouth before its been sucked in properly. Too long hair on a short rig and the hook might not be in the mouth before the fish realises its not just a freebie. 5-10 mm from the top of the bend in the hook to the bait, but that's just my opinion. Others may differ. Maybe a blow back type rig too perhaps, or some tubing on the hook to keep the hair along the hook until past the point? Doubt there are any hard and fast rules for a bait that's less than half a mm thick! Is it like a sheet or something? I'd have a play around with different set ups and see what works. If you think you're missing pick ups or getting aborted takes then change the hair length or rig length.

Is it a bottom bait, pop up, or balanced? Also what rig material are you using, and how long is your hook link? Is the bait really thin? What hook size? To my mind, hair length just comes in with a whole other list of variables that affect rig mechanics, and one affects the other and so forth.

But surely all of those issues apply when fishing slack lines at any range, and yet the world and his dog say it's the only way to fish! (Ok not everyone, but a lot these days.) With slack lines you get no drop back indication, and the fish has to move a substantial quantity of line before you get an indication in any direction. A fish on a slack line could run sideways or towards you with no indication at all as the bobbin is flat down. I thought I was hitting a happy medium by fishing semi-slack, and keeping the line in the deck with a back lead. The back lead also means you can have the bobbins a bit off the ground to register a drop back, and a limited amount of line out so it's flat on the bottom. I normally don't fish back leads under the tips, usually I slide it out and drop it at the deepest point between me and the hook bait. I'm confused. I need a beer. I guess all ways have their good and bad points. Solve one problem you create another, solve that one and another occurs, and so on.

Yep. Blob of putty. I was asking about salokcinnodrog's comment about a running lead giving the effect of a semi-fixed lead when fishing tight lines. Would this work if you're back leaded too or would the line need to be tighter?

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down. Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here! Right use the lightest back lead you can, when pulling into a fish you are actually pulling against the back lead first, a lot of the back leads on the market are to heavy, i use 10 gram back leads and i also know someone who uses 6 gram backleads, if your not careful with backleads it could cost you fish. Plus if your lake is weedy don't bother at all. Surely the lighter the back lead the slacker the line needs to be? Or it'll lift up. Yea I get that it means more line to be wound before getting contact with the fish. On a solid run I've had success with picking the rod up and clicking the bait runner off. Wait till the fish picks up the slack and then lift into it. More chance to ditch the hook I suppose, wouldn't do it on anything other than a one-toner. By the way, I'm normally not fishing far out with back leads. Margin rods back leaded under the tip, mid water rods flying back lead (and sinking leader ) and long range (although its rare for me) tight lines and no back leads. Edited to include that of course, no back leads in weedy waters.

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down. Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here!

This is my exact question, do you not then leave the fish with the line in a bundle of loops to drag around? If a clip is properly fished, and lord knows there are many that don't, but we can't blame the product if it's used wrongly, then if the lead gets caught up and the fish pulls away from it then the lead will be dumped. Job done, but clips, leads, run rings... lead ejecting aside, in what way does the leader make the situation worse? The obvious is that if the line breaks more often than not at the knot, then if the last knot is the hook side of the lead the fish will be left with nothing but the rig. Is this the only reason? Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing any of this this to defend one standpoint or another, I'm genuinely asking more experienced people than myself's advice and opinions.

Thanks Gary. I think I will be picking up some pindown on my next trip to a tackle shop. Looks good to me. I generally stay away from lead core simply because it's so universally frowned upon that there must be issues with it. I've never really understood them until you've pointed them out. On the bank and in your hands it seems good, beads slide over it well etc, but I hadn't thought about it kinking in the water etc. I can see how it would be abrasive too! I'll have a go with the pindown as an alternative to what I'm using at the moment, (as we speak actually, first night on my new syndicate! ) which is the infamous spectacled gentleman's range of safe zone leaders. Just I like them in principle, and I've fished them with clips, semi fixed inlines, and running rigs successfully, but don't like the cost, and the material just isn't that supple. Getting them straight is an ache too.

Couldn't agree more! Really the safest rig to use would be a helicopter or chod type rig, set up correctly of course, as with this rig the fish can only ever be left with the hook link. You'd have to really muck it up these days to leave a fish with anything else. I guess the idea that the lead helps the hook catch and set stops this being as popular as clips or inlines. I have to agree on this one. I'll use a chod rig, if required, but I have to say the whole mechanics of what happens to the rig on a take, and how that registers on the bank doesn't sit well with me. Especially on a slack line. I can guarantee that if it were set up in a field you could pick up the bait and run the hook back to the rod tip without a bleep on the alarm and without moving the lead more than a few inches. But they do work, I guess because very rarely, purely by chance, will a fish run straight along the line. It's just a lot of winding down when you get a take to be sure you're making contact rather than just pulling the line through the ring swivel on a take. And with nothing else to set the hook, decent contact as soon as the rod's in the air would be a very good idea! Interesting you bring up barbed / barbless hooks. why go to all the effort of making a nice safe rig, where the led dumps, and the fish isnt left with a leader then go and stick a hook on the end that the fish cant get rid of. Barbless should, in my opinion, be the only type of hook available, unless you are game fishing for the pot! Not wanting to get into a whole other debate, but I genuinely feel that anyone who thinks they will lose fish purely from a barbed or barbless hook point of view should get down to a runs water and practice playing fish! Most likely barbed hooks are used as a confidence thing if you ask me. (Cue onslaught) Now with helicopter or chod rigs people will most likely want to use a leader. A well set up helicopter rig on a lead core leader is, in my opinion, one of the safest ways to fish. If lead core damages fish while playing them then so will normal mono. It is thiner, so surely will cut into fish easier and get under scales much easier than a lead core leader. Braided thin diameter main line, now that's a whole nother issue that I do not have experience of. But with lead core often banned its hard to get around that one. I also agree that no rig is 100% safe. We are after all catching the fish with a hook, and bringing them to the bank on a line, and of course we do all have the potential to tether a fish. At least most people these days care enough to try and minimise the risks.

Yea that's kind of what I was getting at. If the fish uses the lead to flick the rig out isn't dumping the lead making it harder for the fish to deal with? Of course if the lead is snarled up in a load of weed then it's got to go! That's why I try and set up with a balance between the lead ejecting when needed, but staying on unless snagged up so the fish can flick it if snapped off and get rid of the rig. Lead clips eject on pressure from the hook end after all. Leads dropping off a clip on the take are on head flicks or the weight of the lead, not the strike. I want a lead to drop on pressure through a snag, I think if I wanted the lead to drop on the take I'd use an inline and guarantee it. No 100% certainty with a clip, any clip. In my mind the whole clip has to be dumpable under decent pressure from the hook end. Begs the question, how much of a balance do we look for in terms of fishability of a set up in terms of getting the fish on and in, and how much to we plan for the rig being left out there. Personally I've only ever had it once that a rig was left out, but then I've not really fished weedy or snaggy waters so far. My syndicate this year can be weedy in places, making me think more about this. I'd be very interested to know what your experiments show.

Thanks Gary. That's really interesting about how much pressure we can exert using our rods! Good experiment! I try and tend not to rely on lead clips too much, in that I want the fish to be able to get rid of the lead AND the clip should the lead not discharge. I generally try and fish in a way that the lead will discharge from the clip if snagged up, or if the fish pulls through weed, but can also slide up the line and over the knots as well. I'm also led to believe that the fish can use the lead to get rid of the rig when shaking its head, and that a running rig is hard for the fish to deal with for this reason. Some resistance from the lead in the event of a break would surely make it easier for the fish to ditch the while lot. And if not, the lead can eject from the rig under minimal pressure, and if not the whole clip can eject from the rig under moderate pressure. Pretty much fishing the clip like an inline semi fixed lead. Seems pretty safe to me.

I may be asking about previously discussed topics, and I know the leader safety thing will have been done to death, but I'd like some opinions on my particular thoughts on the subject. So a generally emerging theme is that leaders full stop are a bad idea, with people favouring to use tubing or nothing so that the fish isn't trailing a leader in the event of a break. So this has to be assuming that it's the main line that breaks. Now as the main line could break anywhere, does it make a difference if the fish is trailing a meter of leader, followed by several meters of main line, or just several meters of main line? My personal thoughts would be that the leader would be less likely to teather up to a snag or similar due to rigidity and thickness, where as main line, as we all know, knots up if the wind blows the wrong way. Now I suppose that ifteathered up, the fish would have a better chance of snapping main line rather than a leader, but wouldn't the hook pull in most situations before the main line goes when under water and teathered? Would it not be a better "rule" to ensure, of course, that the lead can free itself easily, and that the rig material is weaker that the main line? If a main line is say 20lb and the rig material 12lb then isn't there a good chance that the fish will only be left with a hook to deal with? If the main line snapped due to a weakness or cut off on something under water if the fish did get teathered and managed to snap the line it would snap the rig, again with only a hook to deal with. IF this holds true, surely a leader set up with 20lb main line and 12lb rig material would be considerably safer than a naked rig or a tubed rig with 12lb main and a higher breaking strain rig material, like some of the 25lb flouros, braids and filaments that are out there. I know there are other considerations, like hooking potential, bite indication, and safety of a leader rubbing a fish during playing, and for these reasons everything from running rigs, semi-fixed bolts, lead clips and helis have their uses, but I'm really just thinking from a teathering aspect after a break, as the other things can be dealt with, leader or not. One last thing. Isn't the current trend in using plastic baits more of a serious risk to carp? If a carp gets hooked, snaps off, and gets rid of the hook, isn't it leaving a baited hook, maybe whole rig in the lake with a bait that will always be there for the next fish to pick up? At least with food baits they will break down after a certain time, or soften to the point that they'll come off anyway.

Yea why is that? I have some nash hooks, and some ESPs, and I've noticed that the same hook size just with a different version of the same pattern and there are no similarities in size at all! I find it better simply to go by visual rather than the size on the label. Is there any universal standard by which hooks are sized on? Or is it just made up by each tackle manufacturer?

It's funny cause it's so often true!

Yep, all valid points. By difficult I kind of meant due to the fact that it's winter and the fish hold up deep and aren't moving around much, or for long in a day. I had one the other week when no-one else did, like you say, keep it simple, find the right spot. I imagine in summer the only thing stopping them chucking themselves on the bank is the amount of bait that will be going in! It's hard to find accessible waters that offer more to be honest. There's a nice one near me in Church stretton which is day ticket but offers a bit more of a challenge, and some very nice fish up to 30s if you can get them! and there's the a localish club with some ok waters. Problem with them for me is that being in the middle of a town, and being club waters they're all a bit, well, unkept. Not that that affects the fish in the lake, but I walked around a water the other day just for a look, and I couldn't find a swim that wasn't full of beer cans, broken bottles and bits of old tackle hanging from trees. Just my opinion but I'd rather pay my money and catch stockies until a syndicate comes up, which I am desperately hopeful of for next year!

I've often thought of using a withy with a chod rig, or a chod type rig where I'd normally use a withy. I think the two are pretty interchangeable really as long as its the right swivel for the chod rig. They do the same job, just using a different material. I must say, I like the look of withys. The shrink tubing tucks over the knots nicely, and you don't need to mess around tying neat looking knots in stiff link. Not sure whether the withy would turn as well if the carp took it from the "wrong" way. Really can't think why I think that though. Probably just as good.

If it's Blackthorn your fishing then I wouldn't be bothered at all by the weed (or lack of it) Not in the slightest bit bothered by it, I just want to be fishing as effectively as I can. I do fish blackthorn, I was specifically thinking about another lake. Blackthorn has very little weed, except off one side of one swim!

Thanks people! Very useful indeed. Glad I'm kind of in the right direction with using sticks, and balanced slow sinking baits. Maybe I'm over thinking things a bit. Just when I drop it in the margins and see the rig fold over a strand leaving the bait suspended underneath I get worried. Given the choice I'd rather it not sit like that.