Worth a read if you are using shelf lifes...

[carpmachine]

Some bad stuff about shelfies was published in the A.T. this week, someone repeated the tank experiment over 12 weeks with shocking results.

[bigtrev]

with the results saying what ?  shelfies are not to be trusted at all or we must only use fresh or frozen baits ?  was it sponsored by a particular bait company by any chance.  Just saying that's all.

[carpmachine]

Have a look on the St Ives website, and all will be revealed, its quoting an angling times investigation

[salokcinnodrog]

13 hours ago, carpmachine said:

Some bad stuff about shelfies was published in the A.T. this week, someone repeated the tank experiment over 12 weeks with shocking results.

You know when those tests were done?

Those results published are from 2006, very out of date, and scaremongering. AT trying to boost figures without asking for later research results.

It even refers to the term "at the time".

Most Modern shelf lifes are in no way similar to those being made 10-15 years ago. I know a number of British firms use exactly the same recipe for both shelf life and frozen boilies, the only difference is that shelf lifes are air dried, then given a soak in a glycerine sugar syrup, and then dried again before being bagged.

The evidence is NOT in the report, because the report is out of date, by at least 10years. 

Since that report was written, shelf life baits have been developed using no preservatives, Nutrabaits, Nash, Crafty Catcher, Hutchy all make baits with no artificial preservatives. The preservative used is a glycerol sugar syrup.

In fact there are probably as many preservatives in freezer baits as there are in shelf lifes now, salt, sugar even flavours (containing glycerine, or even worse, propylene glycol) all get into freezer baits.

[carpmachine]

Are you sure anything has changed, these people dont advertise their ingredients nor are required to do so, not taking a leap of faith, proof is easy, publish the ingredients and let the scientists decide.

[greekskii]

Yeah, the report was published in 2006....the actual experiment carried out much before this...in 2006 it states he was a respected professional in this field, yet the study was part of his 3rd year thesis, how long did it take him to become a respected professional, likely more than 10 years. 

[salokcinnodrog]

3 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

Are you sure anything has changed, these people dont advertise their ingredients nor are required to do so, not taking a leap of faith, proof is easy, publish the ingredients and let the scientists decide.

Ingredients are now listed on packaging, and DO have to be listed due to Animal Feed regulations.

 

 

[carpmachine]

I think if you read the whole article it was backed up by eminently qualified German experts on the toxicity of the ingredients.

[carpmachine]

5 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Ingredients are now listed on packaging, and DO have to be listed due to Animal Feed regulations.

 

 

Are the named ingredients still present.

[spr1985]

23 minutes ago, carpmachine said:

Are you sure anything has changed, these people dont advertise their ingredients nor are required to do so, not taking a leap of faith, proof is easy, publish the ingredients and let the scientists decide.

Yes. 

There is a video online somewhere of Gary bayes talking about the nash bait and saying “expose it to water/moisture and leave it and see what happens 

[salokcinnodrog]

1 hour ago, carpmachine said:

I think if you read the whole article it was backed up by eminently qualified German experts on the toxicity of the ingredients.

I read it, and as I said, shelf life baits have changed since it was written, please check the date of the report, it is over 10years old. Therefore your argument is moot.

 

Nash, Nutrabaits, Crafty Catcher all use exactly the same ingredients as frozen baits, the only difference after drying is shelf life get a glycerol sugar syrup dip. That is the only preservative used. 

[greekskii]

26 minutes ago, salokcinnodrog said:

I read it, and as I said, shelf life baits have changed since it was written, please check the date of the report, it is over 10years old. Therefore your argument is moot.

 

Nash, Nutrabaits, Crafty Catcher all use exactly the same ingredients as frozen baits, the only difference after drying is shelf life get a glycerol sugar syrup dip. That is the only preservative used. 

I do still question how companies preserve fishmeals and other meat based ingredients for such a long time though as they are very tricky to stabilise. Unless of course some of the claimed ingredients aren't in there in any quantity...

If you look at big name - but not so commercial - bait companies, ABS, Premier, etc. they all produce a 'short term preserved' option, because getting a meat based ingredient to not go off ever is nigh on impossible when they are used in any quantity. 

[hutch]

I will leave these here, a link for the German paper that was done in 2008 if anyone is interested and the views from a very well known angler that has spent many years in and around the bait industry

Acute toxicity of preservative chemicals in organic baits used in carp, Cyprinus carpio, recreational fishing

Quote

A large quantity of shelf life baits are made from the human food waste. Common one is biscuit waste, Mcvittees produce tonnes of the stuff every day. This waste already contains pressurvatives, stablises and all manner of E numbers. It is often taken by big shelf life producing companies because it's so cheap less the £250 per tonne and can be easily combined with other ingredient into a paste that can quickly pass through any rolling machine. Even some of the big bait companies do not make their own shelf life baits but provide one of these company with a small amount of premix to add to whatever they are using at the time. So who actually knows what's going into these baits is anyone's guess and like I said early discusting.

Also knowing one of Nick's previous places of employment that handle several large bait firms contracts im sure he has seen some of the processes first hand.

As for me I don't trust anyone of the big players in the bait making industry the big boys are constantly coming up with gimmicks to extract our money

[The_Viking_Angler]

I almost always use shelf life bollies and have never had a issue. Plenty of companies, sticky, nash, crafty catcher ect all use decent ingredients and i always read the ingredients on the back of the package before buying any new bait.

 

[hutch]

Quote

I almost always use shelf life bollies and have never had a issue

As one angler I doubt you would cause fish to go belly up so you would never see an issue, the issues highlighted are based around the long term use of preserved shelf life's on the aquatic environment of a water and also long term effects on the fish that are constantly exposed to preserved food.

Alot of the big companies process for making ready mades has altered, I think Nash reduce the amount of the ingredients that cause the bait to go off then put them through some form of advanced drying process to achieve the shelf life status.  But alot of places are still going down the Potassium Sorbate based route using excess quantities to preserve longer.

Th other question about shelf life's, is down to the place you buy them from, how long has that bag been sat on the shelf, there are people that have known boilies to be sat in tackle shops for years, for me even a shelf life has a shelf life if you see what i mean 

[yonny]

Just now, hutch said:

Th other question about shelf life's, is down to the place you buy them from, how long has that bag been sat on the shelf, there are people that have known boilies to be sat in tackle shops for years, for me even a shelf life has a shelf life if you see what i mean 

100% Hutch. You just have to go down to any tackle shop regularly to know some of the shelfies have been sitting on that shelf there for months or years in some cases.

[hutch]

Apologies that link appears to be broken unless you copy and paste it directly into a new tab or browser window and it is to late to edit the post.  If anyone does want the pdf i can send them a direct link 

[carpmachine]

Read it Hutch, it is basically the same German tests quoted in the A.T. investigation. Its not broke, just takes a while.

[greekskii]

its carried out on zebra fish? 

I think we all know shelf lifes are not as good for the fish as fresh/frozen...

but what the A.T are spouting is outdated information that is unlikely relevant any more. Things have advanced phenomenally in 10 years since the link Hutch posted, it's outdated. We had to justify using research over 8 years old when doing our assignments because of how rapidly things advance. It's not that the articles are wrong, they were right back when carried out, but now they are irrelevant. 

[carpmachine]

I hope you are right, cos as you know, i use these ruddy things.

[carpmachine]

I might add, i was pleased to see the peanuts given a clean bill of health.

[carpmachine]

There is an amusing ad on the telly at the moment for Heinz baked beans, the ultra fit runner type is eating all his chemical protein rubbish super food, and his wife serves baked beans to the kids that surpass it, food for thought, carp tax and all that.

[salokcinnodrog]

2 hours ago, carpmachine said:

There is an amusing ad on the telly at the moment for Heinz baked beans, the ultra fit runner type is eating all his chemical protein rubbish super food, and his wife serves baked beans to the kids that surpass it, food for thought, carp tax and all that.

Strangely enough I used to avoid high protein shakes and diet food when I was playing American football. I ate a reasonably healthy diet, and played from 1998 to 2008, with a few trips to the gym to keep fit.

 

6 hours ago, hutch said:

I will leave these here, a link for the German paper that was done in 2008 if anyone is interested and the views from a very well known angler that has spent many years in and around the bait industry

Acute toxicity of preservative chemicals in organic baits used in carp, Cyprinus carpio, recreational fishing

Also knowing one of Nick's previous places of employment that handle several large bait firms contracts im sure he has seen some of the processes first hand.

As for me I don't trust anyone of the big players in the bait making industry the big boys are constantly coming up with gimmicks to extract our money

It's actually a company I didn't work for that I have seen what goes in and I wouldn't trust, compared to Crafty Catcher, Rod Hutchinson Solar and Nutrabaits who I do.

Ages ago on a thread or threads on here I put the ingredients for a couple of Crafty Catcher baits, and the ingredients list for Mainline Cell and Essential Cell. 

 

To get fishmeals and meat meals not to go off, they need to be dried out, and low oil. It is the oils that often make the baits go rancid and off. Fishmeals most definitely do have a 'use by' date. 

 

There is something else, in that I think many European anglers have a preference for shelf life over frozen, so what is happening over there compared to over here?

 

 

 

 

[greekskii]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

There is something else, in that I think many European anglers have a preference for shelf life over frozen, so what is happening over there compared to over here

Why is this? They seem to not bother with frozen. I’d think it might be to do with the longer sessions they seem to do, spending weeks on the bank not days. Or because it’s not cost effective to bait up with 15-20kg of costly frozen baits whereas shelflifes are cheaper as they can be made from simple mixes? 

There seems to be a preference for hi attract baits over long term frozen baits in Europe. 

[smufter]

20 hours ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Most Modern shelf lifes are in no way similar to those being made 10-15 years ago. 

I've only been "carping" for about 7 years or so, and can remember quite clearly my first trip to a so called "specimen" water.
My intention was to go down and fish it with luncheon meat and bread/corn, but I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I was wasting my time and would need to arm myself with some boilies.

Now I'd heard of boilies, but I'd never actually used them before and to be honest..... I didn't have a clue.
Cracked off down to my local tackle shop to buy some with a pocket full of cash, a heart full of hope and a brain full of "no idea".

Came away with a couple of kilo bags of different flavours, can't remember which make they were now, but I remember insisting on "the best" and even me, in my newbie ignorance, recognised the name on the packaging. They were a top make, well respected. I was cooking on gas!!

Those things were like chalk. Rock hard on the outside, I could hardly get a baiting needle through them without them crumbling to dust. I can remember thinking to myself "why ever would a carp eat these?" But I used them and blanked (I started blanking early in my career and have carried this ability with me like a badge of honour).
The shelf life baits you can buy nowadays bear no resemblance to those horrible things I was using back then. Absolutely none. Personally, I cannot tell the difference between a freezer bait and it's shelfie equivalent. Whether this is clever marketing, or due to the better ingredients being used nowadays I haven't a clue, but I'd like to think it's the latter.