Carp dietary requirements and digestive system

[Gazlaaar]

There you go Turnip, be it right or wrong that's my outlook on bait construction, still a world of info to learn,

[Gazlaaar]

Ive checked the baits this morning, no real change, mind you there are in a cupboard with plenty of ventilation. A couple of pieces I ready over the past, like keeping the baits at a certain temperature in a warm flask will encourage the fermentation process. Plus looking at what the yeast feeds on is predominantly sugars.

I was experimenting with making soaks the other month, liquid glucose based, its a very easy exercise

2 parts sugar, 1 part water, bring to the boil and simmer until it all goes clear and leave to rest. Seeing as yeast needs sugars to feed on, maybe theres a connection there, mind you, this liquid does make baits rock hard after a good soaking.

One other aspect ive read about was rehydrating baits with oils can actually block the ingress of water into a bait, as the oil forms a barrier turning your bait into like a marble. Ive always been a bit dubious with the rehydration process, as dry boilies will take on moisture very quickly once submerged, better let the nutrients leach out than encapsulate the whole lot with oil. Id probably suggest a couple of hours max soaking before fishing, anyway that was just something else ive read about while looking at other bits and pieces.

[Turnip]

Better to have tried than not tried at all, nm.

Everybody has a different outlook on bait making, nm, and everybody is wrong. Nature of the beast! ,... and when I stop learning, there will be a man reading from a book leaning over me, pleading with some beardy guy to allow me admittance and to forgive my sins. Until then - I want to learn by my mistakes and advise given. I'm not greedy, but I do want to learn it all. :mrgreen:

 

At present, I have no chance of testing one against the other, but it would be interesting to test out which Yeast 'boilie', or in your case, 'Steamie' would come out tops if the same mix was put together with 1 slight adjustment,... Brewers yeast in one batch and Torula yeast in another.

[Gazlaaar]

The problem is with testing in any real fishing situation, how is it fairly done? Do we fish the same spot with both types of bait?

Unless there was any significant difference it would be hard the differentiate between the two.

People have tested reactions and observed fish in tanks, but is that a fair way of testing compared to a real fishing situation?

The are to many variables in the equation, which only leaves us with what we witness ourselves, whether that be at home or taking on the information of other's.

I could do an on going test but as you know, with all the best intentions in the world it would be flawed.

I can observe, test pH levels and so on, all I know at the moment my baits catch me fish, but unfortunately, as I would guess a lot of bait makers suffer the same affliction with the pursuit of the grail

I still think there is a lot of room for improvement in bait, but its an on going science as you know.

I will test the yeast theory out as soon as I know it won't have and detrimental negative affect on fish

And I will test your suggestion

[Gazlaaar]

I have just read up on Torula, interesting product

[chillfactor]

What you have to remember, and something I read about recently & found very interesting.

Is the enzymes the fish use to brake down food and extract the nutrients only work at a low to satisfactory level in the water temps we have in this country.

Hence why fish grow much bigger in warmer climates.

 

So ask the question, do they actually get all the goodness your trying to supply them in your baits ?

[Gazlaaar]

Thats the whole point of this exercise Phil, to simulate the digestion process, enzymes do have a peak working temperature, about 18 degrees I think, but don't quote me on that, you have to check with Frank on that one. The whole ethos of using enzyme rich baits is to assist the break down before Mr carp even gets to the bait, hence baits being kept in warm flasks. The problem is as soon as these bait are submerged in the temperatures we have, the digestion slows and stops, so if you can emulate and assist the break down, bobs your uncle. The whole thinking being it is, if a bait is more easily digested a fish will eat more. This is the reason for looking at certain enzymes, but you have to remember there are a lot, I think enzymes run into their hundreds.

That's what ive gotten from what ive read any way

[chillfactor]

The enzymes carp use actually work at there best in water temps to high for the fish to live in .

I can see why trying to incorporate enzymes into bait ( if the right ones ) could help with digestion .

but as you say ,if as soon as there cast out the process stops is there any real benefit?

Would not just using soft bait make things more easily digestible? Or say boilies that have been soaking in lake water for 24 hours , soft and swollen?

That's why I think washed out bait can work... its not that's it's washed out but soft & swollen ?

Edited June 12, 2015 by chillfactor

[Gazlaaar]

Your probably right Phil, i just find the whole thing fascinating, im intrigued and would like to understand more, not necessarily use it but more for my own knowledge

[androoooo]

The enzymes carp use actually work at there best in water temps to high for the fish to live in .

I can see why trying to incorporate enzymes into bait ( if the right ones ) could help with digestion .

but as you say ,if as soon as there cast out the process stops is there any real benefit?

Would not just using soft bait make things more easily digestible? Or say boilies that have been soaking in lake water for 24 hours , soft and swollen?

That's why I think washed out bait can work... its not that's it's washed out but soft & swollen ?

I only have a limited knowledge but did quite a bit of reading over winter when not fishing. I would think it would have more to do with the bait beginning to be broken down and aminos being freed and being able to be better utilised by the carp (The enzymes are pre-digesting the bait so the carp doesn't need to). That will result in softness especially boilies as the egg protein (binder) is acted upon. If you manage to succesfully incorporate enzymes then you're going to end up with a soft bait and you're not going to be able to fish it on the hook or at least it's unlikely. You'll likely have to feed it as a carpet feed and put something more stable/hard over the top.

 

The above may all be wrong though but if others have other thoughts would be good to hear them/be put right.

[Gazlaaar]

Thats the crooks of it, without going into to much detail, yes baits end up really soft and are notoriously hard to present, Nash have achieved this by the looks of it, thats where my thinking came from with the harder outer shell, there must be some kind of other binder their using, just not sure what it is or how the are keeping the enzymes alive during the cooking process, thats why I thought of blanching.

[newmarket]

Gary , have you thought about presenting one of your 'softies' in an Enterprise Bait cage ?

 

Just thinking aloud in writing

[Gazlaaar]

I have Tim yes, armamesh and tights were also another consideration, I don't want to confuse, but im just looking into kinetic energy, basically not actually bringing foods to boiling point to cook. Sounds bizarre I know lol

[Gazlaaar]

Microwaving would also denature enzymes very quickly, as the process of microwaving vibrates water molecules, this is what causes the heat, even at relative short burst

[androoooo]

 

 

Thats the crooks of it, without going into to much detail, yes baits end up really soft and are notoriously hard to present, Nash have achieved this by the looks of it, thats where my thinking came from with the harder outer shell, there must be some kind of other binder their using, just not sure what it is or how the are keeping the enzymes alive during the cooking process, thats why I thought of blanching.

Nm you should go into detail as that makes good reading on a forum. I'm not certain but I don't think enzymes die? I thought they were either active or not depending whether their temperature and ph conditions are met and you may not need them active all the time. I'll check it out though.

[Gazlaaar]

 

Nm you should go into detail as that makes good reading on a forum. I'm not certain but I don't think enzymes die? I thought they were either active or not depending whether their temperature and ph conditions are met and you may not need them active all the time. I'll check it out though.

I don't feel I know enough yet to put a full explanation up, but as soon as I do I will try to explain

[Gazlaaar]

this may sound stupid, but could you not cook your baits as normal and inject some active enzyme into the finished article.

Funnily enough that's what im testing tonight, I have a few baits soaking in activated yeast, to see what happens. I will put 5 into a warm flask, if I can find one and leaving 5 on a plate at room temperature, plus im going to submerge 5 into cool boilied water.

[salokcinnodrog]

Ok, what about a very short boil to harden the skin, then a dip in a glycerol solution, which stops enzymes denaturing, and prevents them from reacting with the water (hydrophobic?)

 

Glycerol is also a by product of yeast fermentation, effectively part of brewing.

 

 

Please note, I am just adding ideas in

[Gazlaaar]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions,

Kinetic Cooking, in short, you don't need to poach an egg at 100 degrees, test have shown you can poach an egg at 62 degrees, but for a much longer period, until the egg reaches heat equilibrium.

 

Nick

I have considered using sugars, in my actual mix albeit glycerin, granulated, honey and so on, then soaking in yeast, after cooking to try and encourage the enzymes inwards,

Carpmachine

Maybe a form of injecting and soaking would be needed.

Its still very new, and theres still a lot to learn,

[chillfactor]

Gary have you looked into cold adapted enzymes .... This could be the key to the nash key bait as it's a freezer bait.

These enzymes are found in fish .

have a look interesting reading .

[salokcinnodrog]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions,

Kinetic Cooking, in short, you don't need to poach an egg at 100 degrees, test have shown you can poach an egg at 62 degrees, but for a much longer period, until the egg reaches heat equilibrium.

Nick

I have considered using sugars, in my actual mix albeit glycerin, granulated, honey and so on, then soaking in yeast, after cooking to try and encourage the enzymes inwards,

Carpmachine

Maybe a form of injecting and soaking would be needed.

Its still very new, and theres still a lot to learn,

No worries, my thoughts were also added to because I think it is glycerol in bait soaks that hardens the boilies. So if you had that as a sugar syrup, you could make a hard skinned bait.

 

As an aside I got some ginger beer flavoured syrup from work, that I have put some air dried boilies in to soak. I had planned to use them for chub on the opening night on the river with some sweet corn, but may well think about using them on Nazeing

[Turnip]

nm - how about - mixing as you would normally, likewise as with the rolling - leave the boilies (misnomer) to air cure for 24, even 48 hours in a dry area and then freeze.

(If it were myself doing it, I may even look at rolling the almost cured balls in something like liver powder, garlic powder. I would even consider spirulina.)

The down side, I guess - you would have to take the 'dusting' powder into consideration with the main ingredients.

Freezing at this stage will not obviously denature/kill the enzymes, and the chances are, I imagine, that the sugars and salts would be doing their tango and foxtrot by now and visible on the skin. Perfect freezing time, imo, of course.

[rosstheangler]

This has been a very interesting thread. Bait making isn't really my thing. I have found a bait I like and it works so I'll let Essential do the hard work on that front.

 

I have a question regarding the enzymes. At what temperature do they start denature? I was thinking you could sous-vide the baits as this will harden the egg enough to toughen the baits up.

 

A sous-vide bath will keep the water temperature at a constant so you can set it as low or high as you like.

Edited June 13, 2015 by rosstheangler

[Gazlaaar]

There are 3 types of Enzymes

 

Metabolic Enzymes – These enzymes are primarily in charge of energy production in the body. They also help to detox the body on a cellular level and are even help our sensory system respond appropriately. They are responsible for cellular activity on every level.

 

Digestive Enzymes – Digestive enzymes benefits include assisting the body break down and assimilate food into nutrients. The body uses different types of enzymes to digest fats, proteins and carbohydrates for instance.

 

Food Enzymes which primarily come from plants. Our body does not make these enzymes, but they are contained in the food we are eating so our body can break down the food. Enzymes are destroyed by heat, therefore, this is why it is important to incorporate fresh raw fruit and vegetables into your daily diet; and essential oils

 

This is where we just concentrate on one particular type of Enzyme, The Digestive Enzymes

 

Digestive enzymes are enzymes that break down polymeric macromolecules into their smaller building blocks, in order to facilitate their absorption by the body. Digestive enzymes are found in the digestive tracts of animals (including humans) and in the traps of carnivorous plants, where they aid in thedigestion of food, as well as inside cells, especially in their lysosomes, where they function to maintain cellular survival. Digestive enzymes are diverse and are found in the saliva secreted by the salivary glands, in the stomach secreted by cells lining the stomach, in the pancreatic juice secreted by pancreatic exocrine cells, and in the intestinal (small and large) secretions, or as part of the lining of the gastrointestinal tract.Digestive enzymes are classified based on their target substrates:proteases and peptidases split proteins into small peptides and amino acids.lipases split fat into three fatty acids and aglycerol molecule.amylases split carbohydrates such asstarch and sugars into simple sugars such as glucose.nucleases split nucleic acids intonucleotides.In the human digestive system, the main sites of digestion are the oral cavity, the stomach, and the small intestine. Digestive enzymes are secreted by different exocrine glands including:

Salivary glands

Secretory cells in the stomach

Secretory cells in the pancreas

Secretory glands in the small intestine

 

Enzymes

 

Enzymes are not living things. They are just special proteins that can break large molecules into small molecules. Different types of enzymes can break down different nutrients:

 

Carbohydrase or amylase enzymes break down starch into sugar

 

Protease enzymes break down proteins into amino acids

 

Lipase enzymes break down fats into fatty acids and glycerol.

 

Carbohydrase is an enzyme that catalyzes the breakdown of carbohydrates into simple sugars.

Carbohydrases are produced in the pancreas but act in the stomach breaking down carbohydrates, hence the name.

 

A protease (also called peptidase orproteinase) is any enzyme that performsproteolysis, that is, begins protein catabolismby hydrolysis of the peptide bonds that linkamino acids together in a polypeptide chain. Proteases have evolved multiple times, and different classes of protease can perform the same reaction by completely differentcatalytic mechanisms. Proteases can be found in animals, plants, bacteria, archaeaand viruses.

 

A lipase is an enzyme that catalyzes thehydrolysis of fats (lipids). Lipases are a subclass of the esterases.Lipases perform essential roles in thedigestion, transport and processing of dietary lipids (e.g. triglycerides, fats, oils) in most, if not all, living organisms. Genes encoding lipases are even present in certain viruses

 

Temperature and enzymes

 

As the temperature increases, so does the rate of reaction. But very high temperatures denature enzymes. Enzyme activity gradually increases with temperature until around 37ºC.

Then, as the temperature continues to rise, the rate of reaction falls rapidly, as heat energy denatures the enzyme.

 

Effects of pH

 

Enzymes are affected by changes in pH. The most favorable pH value - the point where the enzyme is most active - is known as the optimum pH.

Extremely high or low pH values generally result in complete loss of activity for most enzymes. pH is also a factor in the stability of enzymes. As with activity, for each enzyme there is also a region of pH optimal stability.The optimum pH value will vary greatly from one enzyme to another, as Table II shows:

Lipase (pancreas)8.0

Lipase (stomach)4.0 - 5.0

Lipase (castor oil)4.7

Pepsin1.5 - 1.6

Trypsin7.8 - 8.7

Urease7.0

Invertase4.5

Maltase6.1 - 6.8

Amylase (pancreas)6.7 - 7.0

Amylase (malt)4.6 - 5.2

Catalase7.0

 

There, I hope it makes sense, as you can see, Enzymes are particulary problematic where heat and pH levels are concerned.

This isn't my own work, but I have copied and pasted various abstracts, hopefully in order.

[Gazlaaar]

Phil thanks for that, I shall have a look when I have a little more time, certainly looks interesting, from what ive seen