Big Fish Mix unveiled

[hnv]

Surely we have all heard of the Big Fish Mix from Nutrabaits? Although an old recipe now, it is still a fantastic fishmeal bait with an excellent nutritional profile that is also instantly attractive to carp. I have "lifted" this recipe directly from the Nutrabaits 1996/97 bait catalogue and as it has been in the public domain for years now (if you know where to look!) I don't think Bill will mind it being reproduced here. I have given the recipe and a breif description of each ingredient.

 

BFM recipe - To make 16oz of base mix:

2 oz Capelin meal

3 oz Sardine & Anchovy meal

3 oz White fishmeal

3 oz Sluis CLO

2 oz Acid Casein

1/2 oz Kelp powder

1/2 oz Robin Red

1 oz Nutrapro

1 oz Nutralac

 

Description of ingredients:

Capelin meal - oily fishmeal, 70% protein content.

Sardine & Anchovy meal - blend of two oily fishmeals, 60% protein content.

White fishmeal - (Provimi 66), heavy fishmeal, high in amino acid Lysine, 66% protein content.

Sluis CLO - high quality egg biscuit bird food, contains cod liver oil, helps with binding and rolling.

Acid casein - Pure milk protein, 90%+ protein content.

Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.

Robin Red - bird food used to feed show birds such as red factor canaries, full of attractors that carp love including Carophyl Red.

Nutrapro - Nutrabaits own branded milk protein mixture, contains lactoglobulin (approx. 50%) and lactalbumin (approx. 20%) and whey protein, 80% overall protein content, also helps with binding and hardening of baits.

Nutralac - slightly sweet, high fat milk supplement powder for rearing lambs (other milk replacerments are available such as Vitamelo, a calf rearing product).

 

So, there you have it. One of the best all-time carp catching fishmeals laid bare...

 

Some classic attractor packages for this bait are:

 

16oz BFM

2g green lipped mussel extract

20 ml Nutramino (or equivalent such as minamino)

20 ml salmon oil

4ml green lipped mussel UTCS flavour

 

16oz BFM

2g betaine HCl

20 ml Nutramino

15 ml salmon oil

3 ml Caviar UTCS flavour

6 drops of black pepper oil

[markspod]

Awesome bait. I rolled many kilos back in the late 80's early 90's

[hnv]

Awesome bait. I rolled many kilos back in the late 80's early 90's

I agree...

It must be one of the most successful carp baits ever devised. A fantastic bait that is catching just as well today as it was the best part of 20 years ago.

 

Although it utilises some old fashioned, basic fishmeals it can be brought right up to date by exchanging a proportion of the "bog standard" meals with some low-temperature extracted ones (such as LT-94) and pre-digested fishmeal.

Even though I feel a little uncomfortable in altering such a classic and proven recipe I think these small changes can only add to an already great bait.

[mrdevon]

Out of curiosity how much would it roughly cost to buy those ingredients to make around 10 kilos of bait?

[garysj01]

I worked out, for those ingredients, plus a 1.5 kg bag of base mix it would be over £70, you would need to roll a lot to save any money.

[hnv]

Putting a quality bait together is not cheap and the cost of the finished bait depends largely on the individual cost of each ingredient. The cost of the Acid Casein and the lactoglobulin milk proteins are the reason why BFM is so expensive but also a major contributing factor in what makes the bait so good.

Good quality, nutritional bait at a cheap price just does not exist these days I'm afraid. Another big outlay is for all the additives such as liquid liver and amino blends - It now costs £16 for 500ml of Minamino! However, these will be enough for several mixes...

The cost of this bait can be reduced dramatically by replacing the acid casein with something like Vitamelo (but you would no longer have BFM). The actual cost of 10kg of this mix as above is close to £100. Don't forget that you will get almost 14kg of rolled bait for this. Not cheap I know but it is a quality bait.

Some of my other posts show cheaper base mixes (indeed one is titled "brilliant budget bait") if cost is your main concern.

[emmcee]

£16 for 500ml of minamino . i got 5ltrs for £70 back in the spring. and before you ask it is the pukka gear straight from the manufacturer .

[garysj01]

I think i worked out you could get something like 30 odd mixes with the Salmon Oil, 33 mixes with the Caviar UTCS, so some of the products are expensive but should last a while,

 

You get what you pay for, simple as that

[hnv]

That's a good deal emmcee.

To be fair the cost of a lot of bait ingredients are ridiculously expensive now. As has already been mentioned, if you follow a good recipe exactly sometimes you can end up saving relatively little when compared to the cost of the proprietary basemix. It's annoying, as you say the wholesale price of a lot of ingredients must be nothing like the extortionate prices charged by most bait companies and tackle shops.

[thedddjjj]

Good quality bait...

 

I can knock together a quality bait for very little money using a blender and basic ingredients. Catch a shedload of fish as well.

 

The idea that a good catching boilie needs to cost much is incorrect and irritates me to be honest. The carp are not fussy and eat most things, so stop trying to second guess them and give 'em a bit of what they like. It's not that hard - and there is very little proof about many components sold as carp attractors/stimulators etc... other than someone has sat by a lake and caught a few on it. I done that with a can of sweetcorn, it is still not a great bait imho. Or they have stuck carp in a tank and gone, ooo look, it likes that. Fieldtesting - wot a joke. Like fieldtesting a pig on a farm. If only ppl knew

 

Good quality carp food - well, no idea what that costs. Often people confuse bait with food. I don't.

 

This statement is the sort of thing bait companies punch out (no offence mate) :

 

Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.

 

I mean really? As it would never ever be able to eat seaweed normally what a strange and random claim to make...

 

Anyway, just start rolling simple bait and see how you get on, then you can see if your 'wonder' ingredients add anything later on. I doubt they will as location is 90% of it and the other 9% is called luck.

[grangemilky]

You lost all credibility when you said sweetcorn isnt that good a bait. What is the other 1%?

[salokcinnodrog]

Thing with baits now is that a lot of ingredients have come in from Animal Husbandry. There is a massive difference in quality that you (or bait compoanies) can buy in any ingredient.

 

 

 

Fishmeal is getting harder to source, inflation etc and so prices have gone up.

 

I don't know how many times I have mentioned HNV's point that if you buy the ingredients yourself you are unlikely to get the same deal as a bulk buying bait manufacturer, so it may well be better financially to buy it straight from the bait company.

 

BFM was one of the best baits, yet compared to another fishmeal I used very little of it as I had a 'share' in New Concepts Mariner Mix which was also a fishmeal bait. From that I went onto The Biollix and Trigga, almost avoiding BFM altogether, yet I knew how effective it was.

[hnv]

Good quality bait...

 

I can knock together a quality bait for very little money using a blender and basic ingredients. Catch a shedload of fish as well.

 

The idea that a good catching boilie needs to cost much is incorrect and irritates me to be honest. The carp are not fussy and eat most things, so stop trying to second guess them and give 'em a bit of what they like. It's not that hard - and there is very little proof about many components sold as carp attractors/stimulators etc... other than someone has sat by a lake and caught a few on it. I done that with a can of sweetcorn, it is still not a great bait imho. Or they have stuck carp in a tank and gone, ooo look, it likes that. Fieldtesting - wot a joke. Like fieldtesting a pig on a farm. If only ppl knew

 

 

 

Good quality carp food - well, no idea what that costs. Often people confuse bait with food. I don't.

 

This statement is the sort of thing bait companies punch out (no offence mate) :

 

Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.

 

I mean really? As it would never ever be able to eat seaweed normally what a strange and random claim to make...

 

Anyway, just start rolling simple bait and see how you get on, then you can see if your 'wonder' ingredients add anything later on. I doubt they will as location is 90% of it and the other 9% is called luck.

 

 

I take it from your post that you do not subscribe to the notion of "nutritional recognition".

 

That's fair enough, but I for one most certainly do. A lot of the scientific research (published and peer reviewed journal articles and papers) carried out on bait additives - such as kelp powder, were conducted by Japanese scientists for the field of Koi Carp rearing. Much of the early work in this field was used to help develop a more attractive, nutritional bait for use in the UK carp fishing scene. So if Nutrabaits state that something is "rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion" then I for one, believe them! Yes, I know that carp would not encounter sea weed in their natural environment but they would and do actively seek out the same nutritional elements present in it from other sources that are available to them.

 

You are quite correct however when you state that an effective bait does not have to cost the earth. I agree and have posted some other basemix recipes in the past that are far more economical. It's just that this particular mix (largely down to the cost of the milk protein products) happens to be quite expensive even if you buy all the ingredients yourself.

 

As for the validity of bait field testing I will agree that this varies greatly between each bait company. Nutrabaits however, have a rigorous and robust field testing regime where a new additive or ingredient is tested by multiple people, in different countries for anything up to 3 years before it is included in any commercially available mix.

 

The concept of providing a complete "food source" bait for carp that meets all the nutritional requirements (including essential vitamins and minerals) is one that is subscribed to by all the leading bait manufacturers in this country. I would say that upwards of 90% of serious carp anglers want a bait that provides an easily recognisable, good nutritional profile i.e. a "food bait".

 

My opinions are entirely my own and I respect everyone's views on the subject even if they conflict with mine. My thoughts on the subject have been formed by reading comprehensively about bait theory (including some of the original Koi material) and also studying Biology, freshwater Ecology and nutrition at degree level.

Please don't interpret this post as me coming across as a "know-all" as I am most certainly not (just ask my Mrs!) it's just that everything that I have ever posted on this forum has merit both in actual angling terms and in terms of scientific fact.

 

Don't forget... What carp find attractive when first encountered and what carp like to eat long term (several seasons) can be two very different things...

[hnv]

You lost all credibility when you said sweetcorn isnt that good a bait. What is the other 1%?

 

Elevated levels of Betaine HCl...

[emmcee]

Thing with baits now is that a lot of ingredients have come in from Animal Husbandry. There is a massive difference in quality that you (or bait compoanies) can buy in any ingredient.

 

 

 

Fishmeal is getting harder to source, inflation etc and so prices have gone up.

 

I don't know how many times I have mentioned HNV's point that if you buy the ingredients yourself you are unlikely to get the same deal as a bulk buying bait manufacturer, so it may well be better financially to buy it straight from the bait company.

 

BFM was one of the best baits, yet compared to another fishmeal I used very little of it as I had a 'share' in New Concepts Mariner Mix which was also a fishmeal bait. From that I went onto The Biollix and Trigga, almost avoiding BFM altogether, yet I knew how effective it was.

sorry but your point about not getting the same deal on a bulk buying bait manufacturers is a little off the mark im afraid . ive managed to source where a fair number of bait firms get their milk proteins and i can get a 20kg sack of casein for just over £200 and that includes postage. i think it works out about £8-70/kg, now when the bait firms are charging about £15-00/kg thats a very good deal. the more sacks you buy obviously the less it is. i had a price list sent through from them and if you buy a pallet of sacks then it works out to be £8-35/kg, no doubt this is how most bait manufacturers buy there ingredients. it took me a fair few hours of searching on the net and a few phone calls but all worth while in the end. well if you make alot of homemade bait that is. and at that price you can up the milk protein content of your bait and it wont break the bank

[hnv]

Thing with baits now is that a lot of ingredients have come in from Animal Husbandry. There is a massive difference in quality that you (or bait compoanies) can buy in any ingredient.

 

 

 

Fishmeal is getting harder to source, inflation etc and so prices have gone up.

 

I don't know how many times I have mentioned HNV's point that if you buy the ingredients yourself you are unlikely to get the same deal as a bulk buying bait manufacturer, so it may well be better financially to buy it straight from the bait company.

 

BFM was one of the best baits, yet compared to another fishmeal I used very little of it as I had a 'share' in New Concepts Mariner Mix which was also a fishmeal bait. From that I went onto The Biollix and Trigga, almost avoiding BFM altogether, yet I knew how effective it was.

sorry but your point about not getting the same deal on a bulk buying bait manufacturers is a little off the mark im afraid . ive managed to source where a fair number of bait firms get their milk proteins and i can get a 20kg sack of casein for just over £200 and that includes postage. i think it works out about £8-70/kg, now when the bait firms are charging about £15-00/kg thats a very good deal. the more sacks you buy obviously the less it is. i had a price list sent through from them and if you buy a pallet of sacks then it works out to be £8-35/kg, no doubt this is how most bait manufacturers buy there ingredients. it took me a fair few hours of searching on the net and a few phone calls but all worth while in the end. well if you make alot of homemade bait that is. and at that price you can up the milk protein content of your bait and it wont break the bank

 

Fair play to you for doing the research mate. Again, that's good price you've managed to get...

 

My problem and probably a lot of others too, is that I don't want to buy in such bulk amounts. 10kg batches of basemix being about the most I can buy in at a time. I think the most I've ever had was only 20kg and that was Patshull Park basemix from Quality baits.

 

I'm just resigned to the fact that good bait is expensive now no matter how it comes.

 

I did see a better deal on Minamino today - Blake'sBaits, 500ml Minamino, £11.50. They do small amounts too, 250ml for £6. That's enough for at least ten 4 egg mixes.

Anyone heard of them or used their products?

[salokcinnodrog]

Thing with baits now is that a lot of ingredients have come in from Animal Husbandry. There is a massive difference in quality that you (or bait compoanies) can buy in any ingredient.

 

 

 

Fishmeal is getting harder to source, inflation etc and so prices have gone up.

 

I don't know how many times I have mentioned HNV's point that if you buy the ingredients yourself you are unlikely to get the same deal as a bulk buying bait manufacturer, so it may well be better financially to buy it straight from the bait company.

 

BFM was one of the best baits, yet compared to another fishmeal I used very little of it as I had a 'share' in New Concepts Mariner Mix which was also a fishmeal bait. From that I went onto The Biollix and Trigga, almost avoiding BFM altogether, yet I knew how effective it was.

 

sorry but your point about not getting the same deal on a bulk buying bait manufacturers is a little off the mark im afraid . ive managed to source where a fair number of bait firms get their milk proteins and i can get a 20kg sack of casein for just over £200 and that includes postage. i think it works out about £8-70/kg, now when the bait firms are charging about £15-00/kg thats a very good deal. the more sacks you buy obviously the less it is. i had a price list sent through from them and if you buy a pallet of sacks then it works out to be £8-35/kg, no doubt this is how most bait manufacturers buy there ingredients. it took me a fair few hours of searching on the net and a few phone calls but all worth while in the end. well if you make alot of homemade bait that is. and at that price you can up the milk protein content of your bait and it wont break the bank

 

Yes and No

 

If you buy a sack of bait ingredients from a bait company don't forget that they won't sell it to you for the same price that they are able to get it for, so the price may be elevated, or not as cheap as you could possibly get it from the original supplier.

Yet because the bait company is probably buying more than you can from the original supplier they are likely to get a better discount or rebate from them.

 

In fact there is a very good example of this in that many of the Birdfoods that you can buy from Sainsburys are originally from John E Haiths. If you buy from Sainsbury's the price is definitely higher than you would be able to get it for from Haiths, yet if you bought it from Haiths you would not be paying the same as what Sainsbury's do.

 

 

I would far rather buy any ingredient with a very low price, or at a discount, yet I can't justify in many cases buying a pallet of milk protein as it simply wouldn't keep, I don't have the storage space or cold store facilities. That pallet would likely take me a lifetime to use, and would likely have gone rancid by the time I could eventually use it all up.

[hnv]

This statement is the sort of thing bait companies punch out (no offence mate) :

 

Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.

 

I mean really? As it would never ever be able to eat seaweed normally what a strange and random claim to make...

 

 

If you are still not convinced about the merits of seaweed then let me try and persuade you further.

I have plagiarised the following text from Ken Townley's The Beekay Guide to Carp Baits (1998).

 

Ken states:

 

"liquid kelp, powdered kelp and dried granules of seaweed may seem peculiar additions to carp baits but in the UK these products are highly rated. Carp are very aware of the need to maintain the right balance of these two vital nutritional materials (vitamins and minerals) and their food senses are highly tuned towards locating any source of vitamins and minerals. In other words they can smell these dietary requirements in your bait and seaweed is therefore a perfect additive.

Powdered Kelp is yet another product that performs a similar function. It was on the 'secret' list in the UK for many years before becoming more widely available in 1996. One of the first bait companies to use powdered kelp in their mixes was the firm Premier baits. Their fish meal base mixes containing powdered kelp are some of the most successful of all time".

 

So, there you have it; nothing at all strange or random about this "claim".

[emmcee]

Thing with baits now is that a lot of ingredients have come in from Animal Husbandry. There is a massive difference in quality that you (or bait compoanies) can buy in any ingredient.

 

 

 

Fishmeal is getting harder to source, inflation etc and so prices have gone up.

 

I don't know how many times I have mentioned HNV's point that if you buy the ingredients yourself you are unlikely to get the same deal as a bulk buying bait manufacturer, so it may well be better financially to buy it straight from the bait company.

 

BFM was one of the best baits, yet compared to another fishmeal I used very little of it as I had a 'share' in New Concepts Mariner Mix which was also a fishmeal bait. From that I went onto The Biollix and Trigga, almost avoiding BFM altogether, yet I knew how effective it was.

 

sorry but your point about not getting the same deal on a bulk buying bait manufacturers is a little off the mark im afraid . ive managed to source where a fair number of bait firms get their milk proteins and i can get a 20kg sack of casein for just over £200 and that includes postage. i think it works out about £8-70/kg, now when the bait firms are charging about £15-00/kg thats a very good deal. the more sacks you buy obviously the less it is. i had a price list sent through from them and if you buy a pallet of sacks then it works out to be £8-35/kg, no doubt this is how most bait manufacturers buy there ingredients. it took me a fair few hours of searching on the net and a few phone calls but all worth while in the end. well if you make alot of homemade bait that is. and at that price you can up the milk protein content of your bait and it wont break the bank

 

Yes and No

 

If you buy a sack of bait ingredients from a bait company don't forget that they won't sell it to you for the same price that they are able to get it for, so the price may be elevated, or not as cheap as you could possibly get it from the original supplier.

Yet because the bait company is probably buying more than you can from the original supplier they are likely to get a better discount or rebate from them.

 

In fact there is a very good example of this in that many of the Birdfoods that you can buy from Sainsburys are originally from John E Haiths. If you buy from Sainsbury's the price is definitely higher than you would be able to get it for from Haiths, yet if you bought it from Haiths you would not be paying the same as what Sainsbury's do.

 

 

I would far rather buy any ingredient with a very low price, or at a discount, yet I can't justify in many cases buying a pallet of milk protein as it simply wouldn't keep, I don't have the storage space or cold store facilities. That pallet would likely take me a lifetime to use, and would likely have gone rancid by the time I could eventually use it all up.

dont get me wrong nick,i dont buy pallets of milk proteins but £200 for a sack is too good to miss out on. they have a shelf life of around 18months if stored correctly. that said i use a sack of casein in a season, infact alot of the ingredients out there have good shelf lives though once mixed to form the base mix then the shelf life is alot less

[dayvid]

Excellent on the BFM , use to use it a lot years ago ,

 

Now if only i could find out "Solars" Dairy Cream recipe

[dayvid]

On ‎02‎/‎08‎/‎2013 at 18:11, hnv said:

Surely we have all heard of the Big Fish Mix from Nutrabaits? Although an old recipe now, it is still a fantastic fishmeal bait with an excellent nutritional profile that is also instantly attractive to carp. I have "lifted" this recipe directly from the Nutrabaits 1996/97 bait catalogue and as it has been in the public domain for years now (if you know where to look!) I don't think Bill will mind it being reproduced here. I have given the recipe and a breif description of each ingredient.

 

BFM recipe - To make 16oz of base mix:

2 oz Capelin meal

3 oz Sardine & Anchovy meal

3 oz White fishmeal

3 oz Sluis CLO

2 oz Acid Casein

1/2 oz Kelp powder

1/2 oz Robin Red

1 oz Nutrapro

1 oz Nutralac

 

Description of ingredients:

Capelin meal - oily fishmeal, 70% protein content.

Sardine & Anchovy meal - blend of two oily fishmeals, 60% protein content.

White fishmeal - (Provimi 66), heavy fishmeal, high in amino acid Lysine, 66% protein content.

Sluis CLO - high quality egg biscuit bird food, contains cod liver oil, helps with binding and rolling.

Acid casein - Pure milk protein, 90%+ protein content.

Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.

Robin Red - bird food used to feed show birds such as red factor canaries, full of attractors that carp love including Carophyl Red.

Nutrapro - Nutrabaits own branded milk protein mixture, contains lactoglobulin (approx. 50%) and lactalbumin (approx. 20%) and whey protein, 80% overall protein content, also helps with binding and hardening of baits.

Nutralac - slightly sweet, high fat milk supplement powder for rearing lambs (other milk replacerments are available such as Vitamelo, a calf rearing product).

 

So, there you have it. One of the best all-time carp catching fishmeals laid bare...

 

Some classic attractor packages for this bait are:

 

16oz BFM

2g green lipped mussel extract

20 ml Nutramino (or equivalent such as minamino)

20 ml salmon oil

4ml green lipped mussel UTCS flavour

 

16oz BFM

2g betaine HCl

20 ml Nutramino

15 ml salmon oil

3 ml Caviar UTCS flavour

6 drops of black pepper oil

Could this be made a STICKY