moorsey

I totally agree Jez. I just wanted to make the point that we seem to have gone down a carp angling road where most anglers think that you must have a semi fixed or bolt rig. Personally I haven't used either of those two set ups for about 10 years except for on the river Saone where I need to drop the lead as early as possible in order to have any chance of landing the things. Keith Incidently I had a 41.12 mirror last year on a free-lined bait and it was one of the best hook holds ever.

2 questions just to add to your thoughts:- 1. Do you think that the lead actually does hook the fish? 2. Do you want to know when the fish picks up the bait or would you rather not know until it has moved the lead?

But why would you want to hide transparent fluoro inside a lead core sheath?? Perhaps it's easier to find when you wind in.

Zander, I totally agree with you mate. That rig cannot be as safe as a standard heli/chod rig where the beads can slide off without hindrance. The additional loop of lead core only serves to hold the top bead down the core during casting and does in fact stop the hook link from being able to spin (which is where the heli rig got its name from) so the whole rig is more prone to tangling during the cast and any tangle would then make that a potential death rig. I would just add that the original CV rig didn't use the loop of lead core as shown but a curved piece of wire with a loop at each end but even so WHY???? I also agree with your comments about "how did we ever end up using all sorts of leaders when they are not needed." The answer really is that we have been brainwashed by tackle companies (and I'm still an ESP consultant) into believing that if we just add a length of lead core, a shock leader, a flying back lead and a captive back lead (to the manufacturers all profitable items) then we are going to catch more fish. Rubbish, none of them are needed and most of them can work against you.

I have one on our "wall of shame" which we took out of a mid thirty common which is now called "the pipe smoker" because of its mouth shape. The rig is a "chod" of 4' ish and instead of beads to hold the hook link in place it has two knots tied in it.

Sorry fella but I wouldn't regard that as a particularly safe rig. The bore of the safety clip and even more especially the tail rubber would make it very likely to snag on the slightest of tangles (possibly a snap off during casting) or knotted piece of line (maybe wound round a small stick after being cut off on the lake bed). Personally I would much prefer to use a large eye swivel or runn ring in order to allow everything to "run" properly. The lead clip was designed simply to drop the lead and to do that it MUST be permanently fixed to the hook link swivel. Agree totally Keith, it isnt possible to use a leadclip properly in a proper running lead rig. Hi Jezz You should try running a fishery mate. I have had proud anglers show me how they have used a smaller than normal swivel so that the lead-clip and tubing can all slide up the line. They are convinced that this will make the rig much safer............even if they have fed a length of leader through the tubing in the first place. I despair mate. Keith

Sorry fella but I wouldn't regard that as a particularly safe rig. The bore of the safety clip and even more especially the tail rubber would make it very likely to snag on the slightest of tangles (possibly a snap off during casting) or knotted piece of line (maybe wound round a small stick after being cut off on the lake bed). Personally I would much prefer to use a large eye swivel or runn ring in order to allow everything to "run" properly. The lead clip was designed simply to drop the lead and to do that it MUST be permanently fixed to the hook link swivel.

I've been using ESP ghost with stiff riggers tied to a "D" rig for at least 6 years and have found it to be the most efficient hooking rig (even for bottom baits) that I have ever used. For some reason especially for the bigger fish.

I tried but I can't resist getting involved in this debate. I was an avid user and promoter of using lead core and even invented my own (keith moors) knot for it. However, I then found a fish tethered to a ball of weed via a legth of lead core (not mine I'm pleased to say). The lead had discharged properly bu the lead core had kinked and wound around the weed leaving the fish towing both. I managed to drag the fish out to rescue it but found that its bottom jaw had snapped under the pressure and left me having to kill it and bury it. Since then I started to examine my rigs and have now done numerous tests to try and use the most efficient and safe rigs possible. For what it's worth here are my findings. 1. The most efficient rig for bite indication is the running rig without any tubing or lead coreand fished slack or semi-slack. 2. The rig is even more efficient at hooking fish if used with light leads of 1 to 2 ounce. the reason for this is that the lead normally remains in place for the first few inches opf movement and then begins to be dragged across the lake bed. This draggin motion results in it juddering as it bounces from stone to stick to bit of weed etc and this sets the hook. 3. If used with a heavy lead it still works but the fact that the weight stays in place means that it drags the line across any bars or snags and can damage the line in so doing. 4. By fishing without any additional knots between rod and hook link the rig is the safest possible because any breakages (casting or playing fish) will normally occur at the hook lionk swivel leaving the fish with just the hook link to deal with. In short use a light running rig with a fluoro or mono hook link to prevent tangles and fish it semi slack, with light bobbins and you have the safest and most efficient rig currently possible. As an "aide" to you confidence I can say that so far that one rig has caught me 33 forties and one fifty. Hope that helps and be lucky Keith Moors

Strange that isn't it, I doubt that I have used a bloodknot for over 30 years in my general carp fishing. I started to discover stronger knots that were easier to tie back in the seventies and haven't used one since except for a brief spell when Terry invented the hinge rig. With the short length of bristle filament the blood knot was the only option but the thicknes and strength of the filament allowed it.

Hi Nick I do always make sure that I start the "whip" of the knotless knot away from the "cut" in the eye but I do remember Adam Penning telling me that while he was with ESP they did loads of tests on lines and fluoros and found the same. In fact he was of the opinion that the knotless knot was probably the weak link. I am now so paranoid about knots that I rarely use the kk and have now reverted to my own version of the "Dumhoff" which is a pain to get used to tying but is a good knot when finished and doesn't "relax" like the kk when you slacken the tension. (I am concerned that it could be this relaxing and re-tightening that causes the problem with the kk.) If I was granted one wish that I could fish without one of the normal items that we now use I would choose line every time. Keith

Funnily enough you could be wrong. I did a lot of tests with the palomar knot and even tied quickly (it's never going to be the neatest knot) I found that the hook link broke at the knotless knot more often than at the palomar.

I don't know why but I still think that the "keith moors knot" is better then the needle knot.

Hi Jez. That's what I was trying to underline. With the strain from a big fit fish the bloodknot can become the weakest point in the line.

For main line or hook link to swivel "palomar knot" For tying hook with hair rig "knotless knot" or "dumhoff knot" For tying shock leader to main line "albright knot" If you must use lead core for heli rigs "keith moors knot" The blood knot can strangle itself and thereby weaken the line so is best avoided.

I can also remember the seventies on Darenth with my bed alongside the rods so that I could strike hard before getting out of bed but that was mainly because of the bait being wrapped around the hook and a piece of hard spaghetti across the bend to keep it there. I honestly have found that with an effective rig and a sharp hook the resistance of the line laying across the lake bed sets the hook without the need to strike.

With a running rig there is absolutely no advantage of using tubing nor flying back leads. The less bits and pieces hanging from your line allows the bites to be transmitted to your alarm more efficiently. Mono main line straight through with a fluoro hook link is very unlikely to tangle and, contrary to some suggestions, it is not necessary to strike in order to set the hook. I have now used this set up, with light leads at all ranges, for in excess of 10 years and the bites are normally screamers and well hooked and I am now convinced that the weight of the lead has very little to do with hooking the fish.

We have had to ban uncoated braided hook lengths because of the damage that it started to cause and it seemed that the quicker the fish were landed the more damage was caused.

i wouldnt even bother trying to tie that, to many swivels and beads. i think its one of those rigs to make you buy more tackle. If you could build in another ten swivels you probably wouldn't need any line at all. Problem solved. lol.

It does work. I haven't used it with quite that amount of food available to the carp but the "multiple hair rig" has been very succesful for me on waters where people often use stringers or bags. My only advice would be to make sure that the amount of food is a "one mouthful" snack and it will catch. Be lucky

I was going to ask what was the advantage of tying it behind your back. lol.

I think the one you're after Nick might be the drop down rig. I totally agree with your comments about the 360 and I should have been clearer about the withy pool rig. I think because the latter is formed using tubing it shouldn't do any damage but i agree that there are simpler rigs that work just as well if not better.

I haven't seen the publication so I shouldn't comment but I will. I used to be a bailiff with Linear and a field tester fo Richworth but unless the publication has a "health warning" for the rig I think that it is disgusting.

I agree with all of the above and would just add that, if the fish aren't really "having it" and could be feeding fairly delicately, I wouldn't be offering them a hook with the additional weight of a swivel to make the bait act even more unnaturally.