Best rig for carp that mouth and drop baits immediately?

[salokcinnodrog]

A fair number of valid points in this thread, and for example I know that Tony and Frank have said some very good and certain points that have definitely been missed.

 

Firstly I'm of the view that some fish "Suck and blow" and some fish "pick" their food. Those that suck and blow, in my view will need a longer hair than those that Pick their food up, where as above then the bait may need to be tight to the shank.

 

How a rig behaves may also contribute to how quickly it gets ejected as well. If you have a nice rig made from Fluorocarbon or Mono that is nice and straight (as it cannot move any further), then it may often be ejected very quickly, whereas a rig that is on a braided hooklink may be taken in further.

 

The lead attachment may then also add to this. A Semi-Fixed lead may then allow the fish to feel the lead and cause it to "know" that something is wrong. Yet with a Running Lead the fish has no stopping of movement as the line is not tight and the fish CAN NOT feel the lead.

 

I have sat and watched fish in clear water in an area that I knew that I could get them feeding and seen them differentiate and "feel" for the lead (Complicated rigs thread )

 

My starting point with anything is a basic Knotless knot rig and then play around with the Hair and rig length, but work on getting them to feed comfortably in the first place can mean that my rig which is very basic is very efficient

 

[edited for typo]

[levigsp]

If I thought (or knew) the fish was 'picking' or 'mouthing' the bait then my first thoughts would be the opposite to yours Ant.

I would want the bait as close to the hook as possible with the hookpoint just clear of the lakebed or even upside down

My theory being that as soon as the carp touches the bait with its lip, it has a chance of being hooked - mega sharp hooks required I think.

Admitidly your not going to have many runs like this but it may get you that fish that you are targeting - if thats the way it feeds

I agree with your thoughts.

Frank

[levigsp]

Frank, if you think i spoke out of turn then please (and everyone else for that matter) accept my apologies. It wasnt meant has you obviously read it. I was merely trying to add to an extremely interesting subject with my points of view

I apologise if I read you wrong.

[thedddjjj]

If you can shin up a tree with polaroids then the fish do not have to be right in the margins to be observed - I can promise you that. I did nearly fall - well I did fall out actually - yesterday; so dont get too absorbed in watching them

 

To draw some basic comparisons all the hair rig setups are basically the same - thats why I put a pic of each of them in. The manner of presentation may vary but they all sit off the bottom in a very similar way.

 

Now I hesitate to contradict Nick, so let me stress this is just my view The carp may not feel the lead on a running rig (granted, why i use one) but I am beginning to wonder if (sometimes) they get that far at all. Does it matter if they can feel the lead or not if they have dropped the bait long before they have attempted to give it a tug anyway.

 

So all the emphasis placed on semi-fixed/bolt rigs/running rigs may be a bit misleading. Maybe it makes very little difference in reality bearing in mind 99% of people are on a hair rig.

 

I am coming to the conclusion (and I may well change my mind) that slack lines/tight lines, bolt rigs/running rigs, are distracting from what is really important. That once the carp has picked up your bait it cannot eject the rig. All the rest is then just detail and personal preference as the fish is nailed.

 

Has anyone tried the scorpion rig before as I will be giving it a go later?

[tonybranno]

If I thought (or knew) the fish was 'picking' or 'mouthing' the bait then my first thoughts would be the opposite to yours Ant.

 

And thats the joys of fishing Nige. Everyone has their own ideas on how to tackle a certain situation The reason i said use a longer hair is for confidence reasons on the carps part.

 

Im not sure what book it was but i read that a certain angler knew that carp mouthed the bait before confidently taking it. So my thoughts where to do the same. Let the fish mouth the bait which would act the same, and feel the same as the freebies (with no hook close to it) then let it take the bait back once it thought it was ok. I feel that once a bait has been 'mouthed' and it spells danger, then it is left alone. That is why you hear of so many anglers saying "I had fish all over me, but i couldnt get a take. And when i checked my baited area all that was left was my hookbait". I think thats the reason why.

 

But hey, i maybe talking cobblers as well

 

But to be honest, something as simple as the fish not approaching the rig the right way could give it cause to not take the bait perfectly to give a strikable run. Ive said it before..... there are so many variables in fishing that im amazed we catch at all.

[tonybranno]

Has anyone tried the scorpion rig before as I will be giving it a go later?

 

Ive heard of it in the past and ive just googled it and TBH i would never use something like that cos i really dont think that you need to. Once again, i feel that you are just confusing the issue and pulling out some rig that will hinder your chances of a capture, not improve it. If ive got the correct set up, if you get a fish and you hook it, all the pressure from the fish going one way, and you pulling the other, is centred on a very small rig ring on the pop up. IMO that is not gonna withstand much pressure before it gives way. If you are fishing for big fish in heavy weed, then i seriously doubt you will land anything TBH.

 

Remember..... your rig is only the strongest at its weakest point. And IMO, that rig ring is a seriously weakened point

[tonybranno]

Frank, if you think i spoke out of turn then please (and everyone else for that matter) accept my apologies. It wasnt meant has you obviously read it. I was merely trying to add to an extremely interesting subject with my points of view

I apologise if I read you wrong.

 

Absolutley no apologies needed on your part Frank at all

[levigsp]

A fair number of valid points in this thread, and for example I know that Tony Nad Frank have said some very good and certain points that have definitely been missed.

 

Firstly I'm of the view that some fish "Suck and blow" and some fish "pick" thier food. Those that suck and blow, in my view will need a longer hair than those that Pick their food up, where as above then the bait may need to be tight to the shank.

 

How a rig behaves may also contribute to how quickly it gets ejected as well. If you have a nice rig made from Fluorocarbon or Mono that is nice and straight (as it cannot move any further), then it may often be ejected very quickly, whereas a rig that is on a braided hooklink may be taken in further.

 

The lead attachment may then also add to this. A Semi-Fixed lead may then allow the fish to feel the lead and cause it to "know" that something is wrong. Yet with a Running Lead the fish has no stopping of movement as the line is not tight and the fish CAN NOT feel the lead.

 

I have sat and watched fish in clear water in an area that I knew that I could get them feeding and seen them differentiate and "feel" for the lead (Complicated rigs thread )

 

My starting point with anything is a basic Knotless knot rig and then play around with the Hair and rig length, but work on getting them to feed comfortably in the first place can mean that my rig which is very basic is very efficient

Some decent thought there Nick but I answered the question asked.

Nick I did say I knew not all fish were suckers, meaning they do not suck and blow and that I had seen fish actually pick single baits up.

When they feed like this, like Chub they are most definitely caught easier by baits as close to the hook as possible, but dependent on the bottom this cannot always be achieved with the same rig.

That is the reason why Ill stick to a D Rig with soft braid for a bottom bait or a popup on a 360 or chod type setup.

If I am fishing where carp feed by sucking and blowing then normal knotless knotted rigs will serve me as well as anyone.

I know without shadow of doubt that on one of my target waters the bigger fish were constantly getting away with it.

I tried various hair lengths, various length of hooklink bottom baits, balanced and popups etc. etc. and nothing not one single bleep.

But all the boilies were gone after a very short time.

A change to a 360, not only did I catch some fish but one was caught twice in three days, this taught me a lesson.

Now the same could be true in reverse and you could on certain waters fish a 360 till the cows come home with out a tap.

To me knowing what the substrate of a lake is made up off helps me know how the bigger residents are LIKELY to feed, this helps me decide how to fish.

I have said this before and I will repeat it, the bigger the fish the more it eats and the more often it should be caught.

If it is not being caught it is not being angled for correctly.

Normally the bigger fish have been caught because they really have made a BIG mistake not because the angler has not.

The angler should force the fish into making a mistake.

Be cause of my circumstances I do not have the luxury of going for a quick day session or overnighter, I travel thousands of miles a year to target my chosen fish, if I wished to just fish to pass the time of day I would stay up here and go Salmon Fishing when I felt like it.

I go angling to catch my target fish, I cannot help it is how I am.

If I am not catching my target fish relatively quickly after I have it feeding, I know I am angling poorly and I will change things so I am angling well.

Believe me, all of you, If I thought tying sixty four swivels two condoms and a packet of rice up in one rig was going to catch my target I would do it.

Fortunately normally I do not need to go to those lengths.

Yes there are places and days when a simple hair rigged bait, fastened to a heavy leader and even heavier lead will catch fish and catch thousands of fish to boot, but! I do not want to catch thousands of fish.

I want to catch certain fish and these by their very nature are often the fish that pick a bait up and drop it almost straight away.

One final thought for you all.

Picture a table you’re sat at blind folded.

On that table are ten apples and you are told to pick them up in turn.

You would do so tentatively getting braver by the apple, but if there was a hook the size of the apple 8mm thick attached to one, you would without knowing why drop that apple.

If on the other hand there were a ratrap placed under one you would not get the chance to drop the apple.

We are setting that same table with mini apples for the carp their lips are our hands, out tentative approach from the blindfold is the same as theirs from being hooked in the past etc.

And finally their rattrap is the 360 on the end of my line.

Frank

[salokcinnodrog]

If I thought (or knew) the fish was 'picking' or 'mouthing' the bait then my first thoughts would be the opposite to yours Ant.

 

And thats the joys of fishing Nige. Everyone has their own ideas on how to tackle a certain situation The reason i said use a longer hair is for confidence reasons on the carps part.

 

Im not sure what book it was but i read that a certain angler knew that carp mouthed the bait before confidently taking it. So my thoughts where to do the same. Let the fish mouth the bait which would act the same, and feel the same as the freebies (with no hook close to it) then let it take the bait back once it thought it was ok. I feel that once a bait has been 'mouthed' and it spells danger, then it is left alone. That is why you hear of so many anglers saying "I had fish all over me, but i couldnt get a take. And when i checked my baited area all that was left was my hookbait". I think thats the reason why.

 

But hey, i maybe talking cobblers as well

 

But to be honest, something as simple as the fish not approaching the rig the right way could give it cause to not take the bait perfectly to give a strikable run. Ive said it before..... there are so many variables in fishing that im amazed we catch at all.

I know that there are pics of the Scorpion, and Snake Rig on the forum

https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=22185

 

Don't forget that these rigs were designed for particular situations and how particular fish fed, as really should all rigs be.

 

Hutchy, Tim Paisley and Ken Townley have made that point in print a number of times about fish mouthing the bait. By moving it you are doing 1 of 2 things, moving it away from the sign that says "Danger do NOT pick up", or by making it appear unsafe by moving it from where it could be just a bait that has fallen free, because absolutely nobody leaves a bait in position for 3 days without moving it

 

Now go back to what thedddjjj says, my rigs are very basic, but I make sure that I get the feeding situation right when I can see the fish. On the fish I experimented with Lead set-ups, (which I do think make a difference), I also played around with Rigs. The Hair length played a part in how I would get takes, as did the Lead set-up and the rig material. Believe it or not, on the water I fished Mono or fluoro hooklinks were getting more ejections than those on braid, and this is on a water where the Carp are used to being fished for by Pole/Match Anglers with the hook set at "dead" depth and a mono hooklink. The hooklink I don't think "behaved", it didn't move or stretch, although it could only move in an arc, whereas the braided hooklinks could extend from how they fell; as long as they hadn't been straightened at which point ejection increased, or the fish could move in an arc.

 

Those fish that did give a run on Mono/fluoro hooklinks were only as the fish got the hook going into the lip, at ANY forward away from the Lead movement at which point with a running lead I sometimes got a run, yet on a Semi-Fixed I would get a bleep, and then mostly ejected. The braided hooklinks the Carp couldn't feel the line or maybe they couldn't feel for the length and the (running) lead.

 

Notice above, it may not be relevant, or it may have some difference, but try a piece of mono/fluoro over YOUR lip, and then try with a braid. You may find (at least I do) that I can feel the stiffer ones and it does not feel natural, yet the braid is not so "electric".

 

Certain rigs were better for fish that picked up the bait as opposed to those that sucked the baits in, but those that were used for fish that picked up had to turn and spin ( I didn't play and get too complicated, I was already in danger of going up my own backside with confusion).

 

Thedddjjj, note I'm not disagreeing with all of what you are saying, but the hooklink material may add to the debate as I did find that they made a difference to my fishing. I think that I have said in the past that many braided hooklinks are possibly more visible than fluoro's, and so may cause some "scare factor" during the day, whereas an "invisible" fluoro may not be seen ( ), but at night the stiffness may prevent takes that you would have had on a braided "extending" hooklink where the Carp aren't feeding by sight. Because of the Daytime invisibility you need an Instant Indication of a pick-up with a Stiffer hooklink.

 

To further confuse, I often get daytime pick-ups with Braided hooklinks, BUT, I have a tendency to camouflage the hooklink, cover it with a load of PVA Bag bits of food, or even Spod over the top of the hooklink after I have cast.

 

(Edit) I don't use a Stick mix, that may well camouflage the rig, but if everyone and his dog, is doing the same thing, and I intend to be different.

 

So basically what I'm saying is that it is not JUST down to the rig, although you want as effective rigs as you can get, but down to how Carp feed, what they are feeding on, and the rig location. A rig fished on gravel may need to be different to that fished on or in silt. How the baiting situation is will also affect the rig and its effectiveness.

 

 

 

there are so many variables in fishing that im amazed we catch at all.

, flipping annoying and true, and we create many of the variables, some on our favour, although many AGAINST us

[thedddjjj]

 

Some decent thought there Nick but I answered the question asked.

Nick I did say I knew not all fish were suckers, meaning they do not suck and blow and that I had seen fish actually pick single baits up....

...I know without shadow of doubt that on one of my target waters the bigger fish were constantly getting away with it.

I tried various hair lengths, various length of hooklink bottom baits, balanced and popups etc. etc. and nothing not one single bleep.

But all the boilies were gone after a very short time.

A change to a 360, not only did I catch some fish but one was caught twice in three days, this taught me a lesson.

Now the same could be true in reverse and you could on certain waters fish a 360 till the cows come home with out a tap.

To me knowing what the substrate of a lake is made up off helps me know how the bigger residents are LIKELY to feed, this helps me decide how to fish.

Frank

 

Precisely - put it better than I could have.

 

I have been carp fishing over 20 years, I am not using a fancy rig for the sake of it or to impress anybody as there is not a soul in sight - just how I like it.

 

I think if 40lb(+) carp have been caught on the Scorpion rig it will probably withstand a bit of pressure. It is also fiendishly clever.

 

I will shorten my hooklink on the 360 rig however and try both later on today. She will be mine...oh yes...she will be mine

 

 

[tonybranno]

 

Ive seen this diagram in a book fella, im now racking my brains to think of which one

 

Frank,

 

As regards to the 360. Ive heard nothing but bad points on this due to the hook, double hooking fish. I think its something to do with cos the angle that the swivel creates on the hook eye.

 

Have you had any experience of this yourself?

 

Now i do admit i dont know the ins and outs of this rig at all cos im not sure of what situation it would be needed in my fishing. Can you shed any light on this at all?

[daleg2008]

Frank you say you use braid for a d rig, but how do you stop it slipping out of the eye? as with mono and fluoro you can blob the end. i am probably missing the obvious again though. another thing im curios about that some of you guys might be able to shed some light on, is when you use a longer hair how do you know that its not going to fall in the same place? by this i mean the hook and bait landing next to each other. which then would lead it to the same situation as using a short hair wouldnt it? if this happens then the carp will still suck the hook and bait in at the same so was a long hair then needed? i hope it kinda makes sense, im not really good at explaining what i mean lol.

[tonybranno]

another thing im curios about that some of you guys might be able to shed some light on, is when you use a longer hair how do you know that its not going to fall in the same place? by this i mean the hook and bait landing next to each other. which then would lead it to the same situation as using a short hair wouldnt it?

 

When the bait gets sucked in, in my mind the hair will straighten out and the hook will follow behind, like its being towed by the bait.

[levigsp]

 

Ive seen this diagram in a book fella, im now racking my brains to think of which one

 

Frank,

 

As regards to the 360. Ive heard nothing but bad points on this due to the hook, double hooking fish. I think its something to do with cos the angle that the swivel creates on the hook eye.

 

Have you had any experience of this yourself?

 

Now i do admit i dont know the ins and outs of this rig at all cos im not sure of what situation it would be needed in my fishing. Can you shed any light on this at all?

Tony I this was discussed a couple of years ago and Ill say now what I think I said then.

Dispite catching countless fish on the rig I have yeat to dammage the mouth on any fish.

Regardless of how good a rig is, I would not use it if it hurt fish.

I will add again that I only use it when I think it is what is needed, and that is normaly to target a certain fish.

However I have caught small fish on it without double hooking.

Frank

[levigsp]

Frank you say you use braid for a d rig, but how do you stop it slipping out of the eye? as with mono and fluoro you can blob the end. i am probably missing the obvious again though. another thing im curios about that some of you guys might be able to shed some light on, is when you use a longer hair how do you know that its not going to fall in the same place? by this i mean the hook and bait landing next to each other. which then would lead it to the same situation as using a short hair wouldnt it? if this happens then the carp will still suck the hook and bait in at the same so was a long hair then needed? i hope it kinda makes sense, im not really good at explaining what i mean lol.

Hi, the did is tied using very stiff nylon/bristle, the braid is then tied to the hook with a polomar knot.

Your second question is very valid in my eyes.

In theory the carp sucks the bait up and the hook follows regardless of how it lands.

In practice I do not believe it and I think the same as you that the carp sucks both in.

If it is a fish that picks the bait up then it will feel that something is not right before the hook is anywhere near its mouth.

If you saw how quickly carp could separate feed and stones you would have no doubt.

Some would say I am the same as a lot of others and just frightened to use long hairs.

When I first used hair rigs they were often 3-4 inches long, and fished on free running setups or freelined.

Frank

[daleg2008]

I can honestly say i am scared of using long hairs mainly because i have had a bad experience with using it. i used one about 3 inches on a simple knotless knot braid rig. i caught a carp on it but the hook was way back in its mouth just in front of his teeth. he had ate half of the boilie before it penetrated, to me this is not where a carp should be hooked. yes it may be that it might never happen again, but once is enough for me not to use it again. another thing if the theory of the hook trailing behind the bait into the carps mouth is true then i just think its giving them longer to suss you out. thats why im looking into using a rig that nails them as soon as they mouth the rig. i have seen some of the korda dvds, but havent had the pleasure of watching carp feed on my bait yet.

[salokcinnodrog]

 

Ive seen this diagram in a book fella, im now racking my brains to think of which one

 

Frank,

 

As regards to the 360. Ive heard nothing but bad points on this due to the hook, double hooking fish. I think its something to do with cos the angle that the swivel creates on the hook eye.

 

Have you had any experience of this yourself?

 

Now i do admit i dont know the ins and outs of this rig at all cos im not sure of what situation it would be needed in my fishing. Can you shed any light on this at all?

 

Original Korda Rig Guide

 

Daleg,

In that situation the hair was too long, so yes shorten it, yet in the future you may need to go back to a longer hair.

 

I don't normally fish pressured waters, but I do try to match my rigs to the lakes being fished, even if it means I have to play with things occasionally to get it right on whatever bottom is there.

 

Last season I went through a couple of hookpulls in early April, and had to switch back to a combi link, the patchy weed on the lakebed was messin the presentation up with a standard braid. I've got a possible reason why, in that the braid was falling into the weed, and it was being grown over (yes in a day!). Then on the lake in August I again had a couple of hookpulls where the fish hook had been into the weed or bottom detritus. Unfortunately the particular fish that I'm after only really stays in 1 area with a couple of different types of lakebed, one area is very clean fine gravel/clay, and the other is fairly weedy, with silt all around.

 

Now my usual rigs for Pop-ups or Snowman rigs are D-rigs with an Amnesia hooklink, with no separation between the bait and the ring, so it is very close, and I have yet to miss a fish on my waters, or more correctly I have yet to lose a fish when I get an indication. The 2 are not the same and I don't for one minute think that I hook every fish that picks up the rig. Yet for whatever reason the Carp that I'm after refuses to take Pop-ups of any sort, and very few Carp in the lake do, definitely not the larger fish. I have sat and watched Carp feeding, often with them (and other anglers) unaware of my presence. The other anglers would be horrified if they knew as on 1 occasion at least I was about 3metres from where he cast his pop-up. (I was already hidden in the rushes when he arrived )

The Carp came into the swim, swam up to the bait that was popped up a few centimetres and just fed carefully all around it. The bottom baits that had fallen into the detritus were all taken. It may be that he had "overweighted" the bait, but every fish Picked up the freebies as opposed to sucking and blowing. Yet in another area of the lake the (same) Carp will suck and blow. The 2 areas from the bank look identical, both are adjacent to rushes, yet it is not until you get right above the area that you can see the difference in the lakebed.

 

Don't forget that although I do try to keep my rigs simple, at times I do experiment to get what I need to achieve, hence my using my version of the 1up 1Down rig, in response to a particular problem that I have on a particular lake.

[thedddjjj]

Had an interesting chat about this today with a certain guy who has caught a few carp in his time

 

His ideology centred far more around counter-balancing the rig to perfection, whether using cork dust in home-mades or drilling out boilies to fit a cork centre. He felt the rig was less important than ensuring the bait would fall soft as a feather and sit slightly raised on the lakebed. As long as you had a decent rig set-up (i.e utilising a D ring on a very sharp hook) he was convinced that the real secret lay in the perfection of a critically balanced bait.

 

He felt shop bought pop-ups are too buoyant to present properly and require too much weight to keep them weighted down, making the presentation poor and unwieldy. If you were to use them, then it was vital to ensure they fell through the water very very slowly, critically balancing with putty. His preferred rig was simply soft braid with a critically balanced popped-up bait - but then he does own a bait company

[daleg2008]

One of the main reasons why i don't use pop ups that often is because i cant find one that matches my boilies. i cant just fish singles so i scatter boilies in the area just to lure them in and hope their curiosity towards the pop up kicks in. as thats all what a pop up is a curiosity bait. i caught all my fish from my last session on a critical balanced bait on a kd style hair. all this talk about balancing your bait is everywhere atm though, but i still think as the weather warms up all the good weather anglers come down and just launch in a bolt rig and a ready made simple knotless knot rig yeah it will catch eventually, but i think just being different can put that extra fish on the bank. interesting thought though dj and a good thread too!

[noknot]

As I stated at the start of this thread, MINE

[daleg2008]

Hi, the did is tied using very stiff nylon/bristle, the braid is then tied to the hook with a polomar knot.

 

Do you have any pics of that? i don't quite understand how you can tie the d seperate? as its the knotless know that holds in place isn't it?

 

Im a bit slow on these things though

 

Dale

[levigsp]

Hi, the did is tied using very stiff nylon/bristle, the braid is then tied to the hook with a polomar knot.

 

Do you have any pics of that? i don't quite understand how you can tie the d seperate? as its the knotless know that holds in place isn't it?

 

Im a bit slow on these things though

 

Dale

Hi I have no photo ready but it is easy to understand with out.

Get a length of stiff bristle and a hook.

Forget the eye of the hook and treat it as a spade end, tie on the stiff bristle.

Now the tag end[closest the bend] is threaded through a ring or micro swivel, then the eye of the hook, so forming the D.

It is then blobed with a lighter to stop it coming back through the eye.

The other end exiting the knot closest the eye is neatly cut of.

Now you have a hook with a D rig ready to attach as you please.

Or you can simply whip the bristle onto the shank of the hook with fine thread, either works.

Or attach the bristle to the shank with aquasure

[thedddjjj]

You will no doubt be amused to learn I spent considerable time tying the scorpion rig - considerable time - before coming to the conclusion that there was too high a chance of foul hooking for me to contemplate using it.

 

I went back down to the lake with my carefully tied critically balanced pop-up rig and layed it carefully on a nice gravel spot in the margins with a scattering of boilies round it - nice. I know the carp have a couple of spots in the margins they will visit so I was sure they would be along at some point. There are only 8 of them so you need a bit of patience.

 

Well to cut a long wait short, the carp clearly did come along, took one look at my critically balanced pop-up, had a good giggle, mopped up the rest of the boilies and departed.

 

Excuse me, I am now off to stick my head in the oven.

[misterrun]

 

Excuse me, I am now off to stick my head in the oven.

 

That's not a very safe way of softening ear wax, you know?

[thedddjjj]

I just needed some gas

 

These carp are doing my nut. Laugh at at anything floating, wont take this, wont take that, wont take pop-ups, i am beginning to wonder if they eat at all - the place also has an abnormal number of frogs and toads Everywhere you walk they are hopping off the path. I am on the point of sticking a 2/0 in one and lobbing it out there

 

Anyway, this is slightly off the point of the thread. Clearly I will have to try something else and I think it is the rig thats the problem. Try try try again. I am going to critically balance some red corn over some died corn next time - goes a bit against the grain using plastic corn but needs must I am afraid.

 

yes noknot, it will be your rig next time.