marker Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Banning a whole range of products that are not only effective but also lead to more fish being safely landed and not damaged in the process is crazy to say the least. Your also exagerating the amount of fish that pay the ultimate price for unsafe set-ups on 2 counts - far less people fish unsafely than you imagine due to the amount of good literature around today and fish are a lot more able to shed hooks and subsequently rigs than you give them credit for. not sure what lakes you fish on kev but round here the majority of carp anglers wouldn't know a safe rig if it jumped up and bit them on the nose i know how good fish are at getting rid, your trying to paint a very rosey picture but my eyes tell me different mate. you can't say how many fish die tethered, nobody can because we never see the end result do we? whenever a thread like this comes up people always defend leadcore saying 'i've never had a problem', well they wouldn't would they, its the carp that gets the problem my point is tethering known to happen and these products (leaders) are usually to blame, whats wrong with making every effort to avoid them? Your helicopter/tubing setup that you rave to be completely safe is far from it as with all set-ups - nothing is foolproof and can snag through weedclod and tangles and many other scenarios, depending where the line breaks and how it has been set-up. Your helicopter/tubing set-up is very poor in weedy lakes as the lead is unable to discharge.........! But do you make allowances for that - I'll guess not! no setup with a leader is completely safe kev, the helicopter is the 'safest'. weedy lakes are a nightmare, not the place for any kind of leader really, even if its tied helicopter style. as you say nothing is foolproof, the safest way is to not incorporate any leader at all Going back to my point above barbless hooks and lighter hooklinks will improve the safety of any set-up. light hooklengths may help...then again, even what we consider to be light maybe too much for a carp if its tethered with limited movement? barbless hooks, they may be easier to get rid of but then again i've caught fish trailing barbless rigs on more than one occaision, just how easy are they to get rid of? i can't say....can you? swings and roundabouts mate. Banning products is not the way to go - beginners to the sport and experienced alike now have access to information like never before so there are a hell of a lot of good anglers out there (young and old) who not only put fish safety first on the bank, but also in the thinking behind their set-ups. sorry mate i disagree, plenty of information yes but a lot of poor anglers out there, just visit a popular day ticket water and tell me most...not all as it should be, but most can fish leadcore safely If you have reason to suspect that someone is using what YOU deem to be a death-rig, speak to them or inform the baillif who can show them better ways. if i see a poor setup i educate them kev, no fear of that as i am a club bailiff and i see first hand every week just how bad some rigs are Your thoughts seem very shortsighted and misleading - you could always look at the brilliant improvements in fishing practice, but I guess your glass is half empty? short sighted and misleading? errr no i don't think so, truthful observations based on what i see on the bank when fishing and bailiffing not what the latest mag or manufacturers dvd designed to flog this junk wants me to believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goblin Posted September 18, 2007 Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 possibly the best post I have read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bini4a Posted September 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2007 Well thats put my thread to rest. And never a truer word said i now believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevtaylor Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 not sure what lakes you fish on kev but round here the majority of carp anglers wouldn't know a safe rig if it jumped up and bit them on the nose We obviously fish very different waters mate – I have to say that the young anglers on the lakes I fish are excellent and a credit to the water as are the older members, who gladly help anyone out. my point is tethering known to happen and these products (leaders) are usually to blame, whats wrong with making every effort to avoid them? Even without a leader the mainline is just as able to tether a fish as you well know, as I said before leaders more often than not are the difference between safely landing a fish and not i.e protecting the mainline from abrasion – I would suggest that a lot more trailers would be in waters if leaders were not used. Granted a 15lb mainline is easier to break than a 25lb hooklink, which is why I point out lighter hooklinks. Its also worth pointing out that I would only use short leadcore leaders 1.5 – 2 ft instead of the 6ft+ ones that I have seen used, for safety and concealment reasons. With a few blobs of putty on the mainline above that to pin the line down further. I appreciate what your saying but don’t feel that those who make and test their rigs with safety in mind should be punished with a product ban because of those who need some more guidance. If this was the way to go we would have no sacks, which are very beneficial in the right circumstances, bait boats, keep nets etc etc etc. IMO banning is a cop out from the work of educating. weedy lakes are a nightmare, not the place for any kind of leader really, even if its tied helicopter style. Helicopter style rigs in weed can be the worst types for fish safety, if the lead cant discharge your fish gets well and truly stuck in the weed, the weedclog can also make this setup ineffective, unable to shed the rig. Surely its far better to have a leadclip arrangement so the lead comes free and the fish can be brought to the surface out of harms way. barbless hooks, they may be easier to get rid of but then again i've caught fish trailing barbless rigs on more than one occaision, just how easy are they to get rid of? i can't say....can you? No I cant say how many but its not insignificant to state that last year I had a fish make it to an anchor rope around a floating island which transferred the hook into the snag immediately. I also saw a guy snag a low double on a marginal branch and saw it transfer the hook into the branch. I’m not saying that there aren’t unsafe rigs out there and that fish don’t occasionally fall foul to them, but your painting a picture that this is common place whereas I think its very rare. The only fish I have caught trailing tackle have been on rigs with no leader – yards of thick mono. Overall we wont agree because of your outright banning stance which I cant go along with – but its been fun discussing it. IMO it’s the job of the tackle manufacturer, mag editors, fishery owners, bailiffs and fellow anglers to educate people in how to use products safely! Why should we loose out due to the actions of a small minority – I know that if I didn’t use a leader I would loose more fish through abrasion which equals more chances of tethering and that leaders are perfectly safe if used correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpy86 Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 I don't use a leader of any sort. Just a long length (~2ft) of Heavy rig tubing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevtaylor Posted September 19, 2007 Report Share Posted September 19, 2007 Thats fine sharpy - but if you were at a water where you had to go max distance on your casting it would be irresponsible not to use a shock leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marker Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 yep its been fun kev, theres no way we'll ever agree but at least we can put our points accross in a civil manner i've read everything you've written carefully and none of the scenarios you've thrown in to try and cloud the issue have convinced me to change my mind like it or not, a rig without leadcore is safer than one with it, we have a duty to fish as safely as we can and to me, you can't get any safer than not using it thats the very bottom line and my final post on this thread. origonally, i only intended to say i agree with bini's brother and had no intention of getting into a debate its been fun though and the world would be a very boring place if we all thought the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpy86 Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 Thats fine sharpy - but if you were at a water where you had to go max distance on your casting it would be irresponsible not to use a shock leader.I agree Kev. For the time being i only fish smaller waters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidford Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 Quick question marker before you ignore the thread. You have the view that there should be a ban on leaders of all kind as you feel they are totally unsafe but what is your view on particles?? If hemp is not prepared properly it can be very bad for carp and without proper education it will never be used properly so do you feel there should also be a ban on the use of particles or not??? Because if we continue down the road of banning everything that if used wrong could be bad for carp instead of educating then we are heading towards a ban on carp fishing full stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marker Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 hi david, i've said all i've got to say, i've stated my case for not using leadcore, thats what this thread is about, throwing in other areas of fishing like particles and asking where does it end is just deflecting away from the subject, something that leadcore users are very good at when it comes to justifying its use, can't defend it so attack something else i'm officially retired from this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidford Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 hi david, i've said all i've got to say, i've stated my case for not using leadcore, thats what this thread is about, throwing in other areas of fishing like particles and asking where does it end is just deflecting away from the subject, something that leadcore users are very good at when it comes to justifying its use, can't defend it so attack something else i'm officially retired from this thread Myself and others have put are views forward on leadcore and i do not disagree with you that in the wrong hands could be dangerous but banning everything that could be dangerous if used wrong is not the way forward but judging from that post it seems you are the one avoiding the question Does this mean that you use particles?? and on your lakes you fully allow them and do not want to see them banned as you use them?? I personally feel that particles possess more of a risk to carp than leadcore. So if either was to be banned it should be particles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marker Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 very predictable david, try and turn it round so i'm avoiding the issue, trouble is the issue is leadcore. when you looked at leadcore and made the decision to use it, where exactly did poorly prepared particles fit into your decision making process? remind me again who's avoiding the issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidford Posted September 21, 2007 Report Share Posted September 21, 2007 You are do you or do you not use particles??? I dont. I use boilies and pellets I also use leadcore which we have discussed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalmonkeyboy Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Leadcore does offer good concealment qualities by pinning everything down but esp anchor rig tube is as heavy as most leadcores, does the same job and is as fish friendly as anything if not friendlier, there is no room for hooklinks tied to the loop in leadcore and only chod or helicopter rigs should be used because in a time where we are using high breaking strain hooklinks the main line will go first and a length of leadcore behind a fish is a death trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silly12sally Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Quite right. Leadcore should be used in conjunction with a chod or helicoper or at wort a running lead system. Nobody can deny the benefits of leadcore. It prevents cut offs on bars and snags and does pin down nicely. But safety is paramount to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 There are plenty of Leadcore Threads, these may offer some more opinions: https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=28497 https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=24280 https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=22497 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalmonkeyboy Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Nice one.............I am a new member just testing the waters and appreciate the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 25, 2007 Report Share Posted October 25, 2007 Quite right. Leadcore should be used in conjunction with a chod or helicoper or at wort a running lead system. Nobody can deny the benefits of leadcore. It prevents cut offs on bars and snags and does pin down nicely. But safety is paramount to be honest. I'm not sure it does prevent Cut-offs on Bars. I think in some cases it actually increases the risks as the line is lower in the water. As for near snags, I view it as a complete NO NO! (As I have probably stated on some of the other threads) I have been debating its use at the moment and I had a Smash up with Leadcore on Thursday last week. The Leadcore was totally worn through on a Lily Root that had broken from the Main Patch and was embedded in the Lake Bed. Yet the Mono as it was not textured but smooth was wearing and rubbing over the Root. The Lead core was cutting and being worn. I know that the Lead was able to break free on the Running set-up, as I reeled in about a metre of Leadcore that had been rubbed through and the Running Lead Ring was not attached to the line. So somewhere in the Lake the most the Carp is dragging around is a 15cm hooklink and a swivel with 5cms of Leadcore, from just above the splice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalmonkeyboy Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 The main theme from us all here is fish care not catching at all costs which is great to hear, the thought of a carp trailing anything that can cause it any harm is one that completely dominates my thinking when planning rigs as any break or snap off ruins my days fishing as the thought of a harmed fish really gets to me, I have been trying to work out the safest rig and the least detectable rig perhaps not using leads at all!!!!!!and the smallest amount of tubing/core possible to protect the fish, using the best anti eject rig and still having a bolt effect!!.........now that is an ask but any thoughts would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalmonkeyboy Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 With the combination of a wide range of rig ideas and the discussion and elimination process I am sure We can come up with a rig that gives both safety and lower detection using no leads or much less lead and I for one will test it as it can only be good for all of us and our quarry so come on fellas (and Gals) lets have a go............we can have a good bit of banter and at the very least get a bit closer than We were to the ultimate rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silly12sally Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 Quite right. Leadcore should be used in conjunction with a chod or helicoper or at wort a running lead system. Nobody can deny the benefits of leadcore. It prevents cut offs on bars and snags and does pin down nicely. But safety is paramount to be honest. I'm not sure it does prevent Cut-offs on Bars. I think in some cases it actually increases the risks as the line is lower in the water. As for near snags, I view it as a complete NO NO! (As I have probably stated on some of the other threads) I have been debating its use at the moment and I had a Smash up with Leadcore on Thursday last week. The Leadcore was totally worn through on a Lily Root that had broken from the Main Patch and was embedded in the Lake Bed. Yet the Mono as it was not textured but smooth was wearing and rubbing over the Root. The Lead core was cutting and being worn. I know that the Lead was able to break free on the Running set-up, as I reeled in about a metre of Leadcore that had been rubbed through and the Running Lead Ring was not attached to the line. So somewhere in the Lake the most the Carp is dragging around is a 15cm hooklink and a swivel with 5cms of Leadcore, from just above the splice I use to get cut offs in the lillies caused by the roots I presume. This was on mono. I changed to braid for lower stretch and thinner diameter to cut through pads. Unfortunately, I was still suffering cut offs and lost fish. I changed to the leadcore setup and this prevented cut offs and I have not had the problem ever since. I also used leadcore on my other water which has plenty of shelves and I have have not had a cut off yet. But I am struggling on that lake so am taking the leadcore off and lightening my entire setup. The lake is not silty so does not have the camouflage effect and I believe the leader has been sticking out like a sore thumb. I am using ESP leadcore, perhaps your brand is of lower quality? I have faith in leadcore getting the job done for me and that my rigs are safe. However, this knowledge of safety must be adopted by other anglers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 26, 2007 Report Share Posted October 26, 2007 Lol, I doubt my Brand is of Lower Quality, its ESP! I have looked over the roots of lilies that were dragged out and they were covered in young mussels. I have since looked over the Sensor Mono and had to replace some of it due to wear, so the Leadcore obviously was cutting in more than the mono? I don't think that Braid is actually as Abrasion Resistant as Mono in many cases. All I know at the moment that on the Lake in question I am really struggling on Leadcore and on Mono. I've used Leadcore on Reservoirs with very little silt, and a mostly gravel bottom and had far better results on that than on the Tubing End Tackle Rods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giles07 Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 why use leadcore when esp anchor rig tubing is heavier and pins it down better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpingod150 Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Don't get Nick started on tubing V leadcore, seriously... And anyway, leadcore is heavier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 why use leadcore when esp anchor rig tubing is heavier and pins it down better I suggest you dig up previous threads on the subject "Tubing vs Leadcore". Then realise that while a object may have more Mass (weigh more) its density is not that of another. In other words while 1 tonne of feathers weighs the same as 1tonne of coal, the coal is more dense and will take up less space. BASIC PHYSICS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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