Common vs Mirror questions

[Carp canada]

I am new to the forum have been fishing for a 20+ years in Canada and have been catching carp for a long time too as well as every other fish we have here in north america.

I will add some photos tonight to prove my level of carp nerdiness

anyways my goal right now is to catch a mirror and im sure most of you know from the UK carp in North america are the trash fish and no one cares except for a select few hardcore fisherman who see the draw to carp fishing on the fly.

in my search for a mirror my question is can two common carp breed and can a mirror be born.

I understand they are genetically different while being for the most part the same as in they are both carp. in Canada all carp were introduced at some point along the last 50-200 years depending on the body of water so at this point they are basically a wild invasive fish as they have been reproducing for many generations in most areas.

a lot of the water I fish has from what I can see only commons with maybe a couple mirrors here or there, but how did the mirrors get there, did someone have to release a mirror for there to be a mirror or can commons eggs hatch a mirror in a 1:1000 type situation. any info you European carp pros have would be great

[chillfactor]

Hi & welcome to the forum. 

From my understanding if you have only common carp, then they can't have partially scaled offspring ( mirror) .

[Carp canada]

But it’s just a trait they carry like a ginger to humans. A mirror to common. How did mirror carp come to be? If you read the articles online (google search) that explain how in the Middle Ages we slowly bred mirrors through selective breeding. That means they must have taken the odd mirror out of the pool to breed it and only it and then have a pure mirror strain they could farm.

So my thinking is that the odd two commons can make a mirror  I am having this convo on a few other forums and I have got answers from both sides  one says you need two mirrors to make a mirror the other says it’s like humans and ginger haired people and others say you have to release a mirror to have a mirror  

who is correct I have no idea at this point but I am determined to get to the bottom of it

 

 

[greekskii]

scale patterns are like eye colour in humans. I have some old uni notes on this but wont be able to dig through them until July but I will do when I get back from my holiday.

I'm pretty sure its the same as human eye colour, so 2 commons breeding, both may have the recessive gene which means some offspring will be mirrors. The 'common' is the dominant gene so you'd need both commons to carry the recessive 'mirror' gene for a mirror to be produced. 

 2 commons can make a mirror, just like two brown eyed parents can make a blue eyed child. Otherwise there would be no mirror carp in existence! 

10 hours ago, Carp canada said:

I understand they are genetically different while being for the most part the same as in they are both carp.

A common and mirror carp are both what we know as 'common carp'. the same species as ghost carp and koi carp too. The only differing thing between them is scale patterns and colour pigmentation. 

[chillfactor]

Franks take on it.... think it backs up what I said ? 

[greekskii]

34 minutes ago, chillfactor said:

Franks take on it.... think it backs up what I said ? 

not entirely as you can always have a recessive or mutation. I have spawned two common carp, albeit they were koi, and a % came out as lins, leathers and mirrors. If you ask any fish farmer are 100% of the offspring of two common carp also common carp the answer will be no. It is the dominant gene and will eventually take over but to say two commons can NEVER have an offspring of any other scale pattern just isnt true.

[chillfactor]

Like you say ... eventually the dominant gene will take over & you will end up with all commons .so if you start off will all commons the chances of ending up with mirrors is highly unlikely .

 

[greekskii]

And the reason for the odd mirror is because you have hundreds of surviving offspring (to fingerling size at least) per female. In artificial environments it’s more. 

In the wild the chances of two recessive carrying commons spawning together and the double recessive gene offspring surviving is low but then you may have multiple recessive carriers spawning together and a larger % of non commons than normal. 

At the danger of this getting dogmatic the OPs chances of a mirror are low. 

[psychodiagnostik]

I've just started carp fishing here in NC this year, out of 16 carp across three lake & creek venues, one was a mirror.  I follow a lot of southeast USA carp anglers and it seems to be similiar around here, a very small percentage would be mirrors. I did read a study that if you selectively breed for mirrors, yet introduce them into the wild, the environment can result in different genes expressing the scale patterns.  So even mirror pedigree stocks can go back to scaled due to (I think) the protection offered by scaled.  It definitely seems that certain areas produce more mirrors, so I wonder if the environment in which the carp live plays a part.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/08/carp-undergo-reverse-evolution-get-their-scales-back

 

[yonny]

4 minutes ago, psychodiagnostik said:

I did read a study that if you selectively breed for mirrors, yet introduce them into the wild, the environment can result in different genes expressing the scale patterns.

Mirrors were created by humans for the table through selective breeding. They'll all go back to commons if the gene pool is left alone buddy.

[C-Arp]

Interesting thread. There will always be mirrors in any population. The Connecticut River has a tremendous reputation for ginormous mirrors. That fishery isn't going to change. I would expect that the mirrors in that section are the dominant gene. South of the dam it shifts back to more of a common dominant population. I've fished the Saint Lawrence and only managed a handful of mirrors in over a decade.  Same with the Hudson River.

[yonny]

12 hours ago, C-Arp said:

The Connecticut River

I believe it held the US record for many years?

I travel to CT with work quite regularly and often wonder about booking some time to fish the place.

[C-Arp]

1 hour ago, yonny said:

I believe it held the US record for many years?

I travel to CT with work quite regularly and often wonder about booking some time to fish the place.

The the Connecticut is simply an amazing River and quite simple to fish. There are many many places that are easy to find. You should make the effort as the rewards can be beyond expectation.  A 30# mirror is "nice" but not when guys are targeting much bigger...

[filippogallo]

On 10/9/2019 at 3:19 PM, psychodiagnostik said:

I've just started carp fishing here in NC this year, out of 16 carp across three lake & creek venues, one was a mirror.  I follow a lot of southeast USA carp anglers and it seems to be similiar around here, a very small percentage would be mirrors. I did read a study that if you selectively breed for mirrors, yet introduce them into the wild, the environment can result in different genes expressing the scale patterns.  So even mirror pedigree stocks can go back to scaled due to (I think) the protection offered by scaled.  It definitely seems that certain areas produce more mirrors, so I wonder if the environment in which the carp live plays a part.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/08/carp-undergo-reverse-evolution-get-their-scales-back

 

My grandfather, a fisherman with 50 years of experience, always grieved when he caught mirror carp. In his opinion, this is a mockery of nature and in natural conditions there should be no such thing at all.