Pop ups in pva bags

[adamkitson]

Yeah well I don't doubt the experiences of others, and I fully agree that a heli on a slack line would be daft. In fact a running lead is about the only setup that I think could be effectively fished on a slack line as the fixed lead gives a point for the line to run through which is the only way a drop back would be registered on a slack line.

 

This is pretty much why I abandoned slack lines in favour of back leads and light bobbins. Best of both worlds for me. Line is still tight enough to register a drop back if the lead is picked up, but no straight lines through the water to spook fish. In low weed in fact, once the line is in the weed between the leads I think you'd have a job to find it even knowing it was there. Bare in mind also the lake bed I'm specifically talking about is a smooth uniform depth from a rod out. I think the key to heli sensitivity is this back lead creating a second pivot point with a small amount of tension between the two. Increase the tension, bobbin up, slacken the tension, bobbin down. It's a delicate setup and from my experience it certainly works. Yes, with a tight line and a heavy bobbin, a semi slack or slack line from the tip to the lead I can see how the fish could move, lead, rig and all before registering, but i just don't see it affecting my setup in this way. Certainly if it is possible it's nothing I've ever experienced. Even if a fish moved sideways to the line very slowly it would add tension to the line and lift the bobbin. I've always felt that if the rig were fixed closer to the lead it wouldn't work as well. I like the rig right by the lead on the cast as the anti tangle sleeve is over the lead swivel which eliminated tangles, but the top bead a foot, even two up so it sits away from the lead on landing. Actually the further from the lead the better the indication as more of the pressure is put on the rod side of the line. Of course if the fish swam head down straight to the lead it would get that distance before indication, but then it would hit the lead and take off. Probably how the coule of one toners I've had have happened.

 

I dunno. I don't like to be blinkered by one approach or you stop seeing the advantages of various setups and only compare what could cause them not to work, not why they may be better. For example, I've fished a lot of silty venues which has caused me not to spend a lot of time looking at running leads. Just by pulling the lead out when retrieving I can tell it's well into the silt. For me personally anything other than a rotary setup of some kind could affect presentation.

 

I get what you mean about swivel damage fishing inlines over gravel. I must say, if I get on a lake with decent gravel areas I'll have to look at setups for that situation. My first thought there would maybe be a lead clip. I've not used one for ages, apart from a bit of lowering it in margin stalking. I wanted the bolt response then as a hooked fish charging out of a feeding spot didn't put off the other fish. They were well clear before I got to the rod. Worked well.

 

Horses for courses I think. And having confidence in a variety of methods and an awareness of how to use each one effectively can only help when dealing with different situations. I feel I've cracked it with heli's now, but they are showing shortcomings in my current fishing situations, so I'm trying something else which I'll refine until I get that right. If things change again, so will I. I'm not going to be stuck to one thing as nothing is optimal everywhere, including running rigs.

[newmarket]

Yeah well I don't doubt the experiences of others, and I fully agree that a heli on a slack line would be daft. In fact a running lead is about the only setup that I think could be effectively fished on a slack line as the fixed lead gives a point for the line to run through which is the only way a drop back would be registered on a slack line.

 

This is pretty much why I abandoned slack lines in favour of back leads and light bobbins. Best of both worlds for me. Line is still tight enough to register a drop back if the lead is picked up, but no straight lines through the water to spook fish. In low weed in fact, once the line is in the weed between the leads I think you'd have a job to find it even knowing it was there. Bare in mind also the lake bed I'm specifically talking about is a smooth uniform depth from a rod out. I think the key to heli sensitivity is this back lead creating a second pivot point with a small amount of tension between the two. Increase the tension, bobbin up, slacken the tension, bobbin down. It's a delicate setup and from my experience it certainly works. Yes, with a tight line and a heavy bobbin, a semi slack or slack line from the tip to the lead I can see how the fish could move, lead, rig and all before registering, but i just don't see it affecting my setup in this way. Certainly if it is possible it's nothing I've ever experienced. Even if a fish moved sideways to the line very slowly it would add tension to the line and lift the bobbin. I've always felt that if the rig were fixed closer to the lead it wouldn't work as well. I like the rig right by the lead on the cast as the anti tangle sleeve is over the lead swivel which eliminated tangles, but the top bead a foot, even two up so it sits away from the lead on landing. Actually the further from the lead the better the indication as more of the pressure is put on the rod side of the line. Of course if the fish swam head down straight to the lead it would get that distance before indication, but then it would hit the lead and take off. Probably how the coule of one toners I've had have happened.

 

I dunno. I don't like to be blinkered by one approach or you stop seeing the advantages of various setups and only compare what could cause them not to work, not why they may be better. For example, I've fished a lot of silty venues which has caused me not to spend a lot of time looking at running leads. Just by pulling the lead out when retrieving I can tell it's well into the silt. For me personally anything other than a rotary setup of some kind could affect presentation.

 

I get what you mean about swivel damage fishing inlines over gravel. I must say, if I get on a lake with decent gravel areas I'll have to look at setups for that situation. My first thought there would maybe be a lead clip. I've not used one for ages, apart from a bit of lowering it in margin stalking. I wanted the bolt response then as a hooked fish charging out of a feeding spot didn't put off the other fish. They were well clear before I got to the rod. Worked well.

 

Horses for courses I think. And having confidence in a variety of methods and an awareness of how to use each one effectively can only help when dealing with different situations. I feel I've cracked it with heli's now, but they are showing shortcomings in my current fishing situations, so I'm trying something else which I'll refine until I get that right. If things change again, so will I. I'm not going to be stuck to one thing as nothing is optimal everywhere, including running rigs.

Always good to hear of an angler so open minded when it comes to different situations Adam but do you not agree that a Chod has to be fished slack and is a helicopter set up ?

[adamkitson]

Always good to hear of an angler so open minded when it comes to different situations Adam but do you not agree that a Chod has to be fished slack and is a helicopter set up ?

Hmm, yeah a chod is undoubtably a rotary/helicopter setup. Not really something I've fished a great deal. I don't think I'd fish a chod on a leader. I don't see the advantage over a helicopter with a stiff hinged rig with a soft boom section or a multi or something. I do have the stuff for a naked chod setup with lead drop system, but I've only used it once and still used a back lead. Didn't catch though so I doubt it was still sitting up on the weed as it should.

 

That's a good point actually NM. Chods, either on the line or on a leader are widely used and account for a fair number of fish. So how do they differ in bite indication terms from any other rotary setups?

[newmarket]

Hmm, yeah a chod is undoubtably a rotary/helicopter setup. Not really something I've fished a great deal. I don't think I'd fish a chod on a leader. I don't see the advantage over a helicopter with a stiff hinged rig with a soft boom section or a multi or something. I do have the stuff for a naked chod setup with lead drop system, but I've only used it once and still used a back lead. Didn't catch though so I doubt it was still sitting up on the weed as it should.

 

That's a good point actually NM. Chods, either on the line or on a leader are widely used and account for a fair number of fish. So how do they differ in bite indication terms from any other rotary setups?

Well I sometimes had the bottom bead 2ft from the lead and the top bead well way from that so maybe that's the difference with a naked Choddy set up .

Do most people using heli set ups have the beads close together so the hook length actually can't move along the line/leader ?

[adamkitson]

Well I sometimes had the bottom bead 2ft from the lead and the top bead well way from that so maybe that's the difference with a naked Choddy set up .

Do most people using heli set ups have the beads close together so the hook length actually can't move along the line/leader ?

Don't know. I don't. Bottom bead right on the lead, top bead a foot or two up. I like a bit of distance from the lead, and for me it helps with indication.

[newmarket]

Don't know. I don't. Bottom bead right on the lead, top bead a foot or two up. I like a bit of distance from the lead, and for me it helps with indication.

I think that's it . I know the thread has deviated off topic (for a change:)) but I wonder what everyone else thinks ?

[adamkitson]

Good topic though! I love me a heli setup, and I've never had issues with it as I know others have. Interesting to hear others opinions/experiences. Personally I think it's the back lead and the delicate line tension combined with a bit of distance from the lead and slide in the rig that does it. Literally 4-5 inches of line difference between how I fish them and fully slack, but enough tension to hold a light bobbin up.

[rosstheangler]

That would be my thinking too.

Another thing I've found to work in a tank test, once the bag is tied up, tie a couple of pva nuggets to the side of the bag you want up. Pretty well always lands well.

My bags, with pop ups, doesn't really matter which way up they land cause as you say, the popup will work its way to the top.

Use a longer hair and the wafter is basically a pop up. The hook is enough to weight the wafter but it will rise on a hair.

[adamkitson]

Use a longer hair and the wafter is basically a pop up. The hook is enough to weight the wafter but it will rise on a hair.

Nope. Depends on the buoyancy of your wafter.

 

Some that I have sink if you drop them in the margin with no hook, but very very slowly. I wouldn't want a wafter that sat off the bottom. For me it's just a bottom bait that lifts easier when sucked up by a fish.

[rosstheangler]

Nope. Depends on the buoyancy of your wafter.

Some that I have sink if you drop them in the margin with no hook, but very very slowly. I wouldn't want a wafter that sat off the bottom. For me it's just a bottom bait that lifts easier when sucked up by a fish.

As I understand it a wafter is supposed to sink with the weight of the hook so it is just a heavy pop up really.

 

If yours are sinking with no added weight then I don't think they are a wafter, I think they are a balanced bait which will act differently once it's attached to a hook link.

[adamkitson]

As I understand it a wafter is supposed to sink with the weight of the hook so it is just a heavy pop up really.

If yours are sinking with no added weight then I don't think they are a wafter, I think they are a balanced bait which will act differently once it's attached to a hook link.

Don't know what to tell ya. Got "wafter" written on the tub.

 

For me, a balanced bait is a bait that floats, but the buoyancy and hence how it acts is affected by weight you add to it, hence, balanced.

A wafter, by definition, wafts as it slowly sinks. The bait sits on the bottom like any other bottom bait, but the buoyancy in the bait negates the weight of the hook attached meaning it acts as a normal freebie would when eaten.

 

We're probably just arguing semantics here though. I just see a huge difference between a balanced bait and a wafter. For me they have totally different functions.

[beanz]

I had some so-called wafters, that lifted the hair on a size 6, so I used them on a size 10 as a zig  To me a wafter has to be neutrally buoyant or its a poor pop up!!

[newmarket]

I can categorically confirm that a Wafter is a pop up that didn't get enough cork dust added to the mix.

I know , I've made enough of 'em

[salokcinnodrog]

Wafter, the latest name for an extremely critically balanced bait

 

Seriously you could argue semantics, but to me a wafter should sink, but extremely slowly of its own accord, or have a neutral buoyancy, it would stay in what level of water it was put in.

If it doesn't sink, but sits on the surface, then it is a pop-up!

 

That slow sinking bait is going to be lighter than the freebies, and will be more easily sucked in than the free baits, and the hook will follow it in due to the hair.

 

A bait that sinks with the weight of the hook, but would normally float, is a pop-up, even if the weight of the hook overbalanced it.

Various hooks have different masses or weights, so a pop-up that is sunk by a size 6 Mugga is more likely to pop-up a size 10 101.

 

As I understand it a wafter is supposed to sink with the weight of the hook so it is just a heavy pop up really.

If yours are sinking with no added weight then I don't think they are a wafter, I think they are a balanced bait which will act differently once it's attached to a hook link.

  

Nope. Depends on the buoyancy of your wafter.

Some that I have sink if you drop them in the margin with no hook, but very very slowly. I wouldn't want a wafter that sat off the bottom. For me it's just a bottom bait that lifts easier when sucked up by a fish.

  

I had some so-called wafters, that lifted the hair on a size 6, so I used them on a size 10 as a zig  To me a wafter has to be neutrally buoyant or its a poor pop up!!

[adamkitson]

Wafter, the latest name for an extremely critically balanced bait

Seriously you could argue semantics, but to me a wafter should sink, but extremely slowly of its own accord, or have a neutral buoyancy, it would stay in what level of water it was put in.

If it doesn't sink, but sits on the surface, then it is a pop-up!

 

A bait that sinks with the weight of the hook, but would normally float, is a pop-up, even if the weight of the hook overbalanced

 

That is exactly how I would see it.

[rosstheangler]

The best wafter I use are from Bang on baits and they are actually called off the hook wafters. My opinion is that criticaly balanced, pop ups and wafters are all different categories of hook baits. But if we were all the same it would be boring.

Edited May 29, 2016 by rosstheangler

[beanz]

. My opinion is that criticaly balanced, pop ups and wafters are all different categories of hook baits. But if we were all the same it would be boring.

I agree on this part..

 

The BOB OTHWs are what I was referring too, and I cant class them as wafters, as they pop up.

[adamkitson]

The best wafter I use are from Bang on baits and they are actually called off the hook wafters. My opinion is that criticaly balanced, pop ups and wafters are all different categories of hook baits. But if we were all the same it would be boring.

  

I agree on this part..

 

The BOB OTHWs are what I was referring too, and I cant class them as wafters, as they pop up.

Exactly beanz. The hook bait is what it is if it's on the hook or not. Pop up is a pop up. Add a weight to it so it sinks, still a pop up. Wafter sinks slowly, hook or not.