beanz Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 i used to believe that having the lead near to the bait was an alien object to the fish and it was best to have it as far away as poss...but now with so many leads being dropped on the hot spots it seems less likely to spook 'em. with lead clips i can see where different rig lengths can help/hinder. my thinking nowadays on runners is that as long as the fish can take up the slack without resistance then the length is almost meaningless. do you think on a running set up thats not on a tight line the length makes a difference???? and if so, why??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysj01 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 To be honest my thinking is, when a carp picks up your rig, i like to think it can't feel the lead until it starts to move off, giving the bait the time to be sucked in and settle a little before the fish feels the resistance of the lead. The running system i think gives you better and quicker indication, i use short lengths inside solid pva bags, and slightly longer with sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Until he hits the back stop, There is the Awesome "Bolt rig" devised over 30 years ago, but is as effective today as the day it was first used, think about it!? Now dare ask me why? Understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beanz Posted October 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 i daren't kev i dont buy into the bolt rig...dropping the lead fair enough ,but the need for the weight to hook them for me??? nah! indication is always top of my list for lead set up. the last few iv had out had cut the hair clean off,and the hook hold was solid in bang bottom center, but whether it take holds on ejection or the line tightening im undecided though if it is the latter then why/how would it be bottom center unless the fish swims backwards away from my rods??? the would be more holds in the scissors surely???? so if the length just needs to be just enough for the way the fish is feeding, so on a safe odds side slightly longer has to be better than short???? the reason behind these questions is i got a rapide loader, iv never used solids much before as the 1st few filled by bivvy on the cast and i get on with mesh so much easier. so with my standard 8-9 inch rig it just seem pointless as the baits nearly on the lead anyway ..so while thinking how short i could go, the original question popped into my head. do people have a preferred lead set up when using solids?? it would help if my tongue/fingers could relay whats in my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysj01 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I just use an inline running set up in my solid pva bags fella, just easier for me, but i do use a shorter hooklink, im just paranoid the hooklink loops up if its too long in the bag. As for sticks i can straighten out the presentation so i use a slightly longer hooklink. I always favour a running lead, i just think it gives you better indication. What are you thinking as regards to the length Is it the fact if the hooklink is longer then maybe the hook will travel deeper when sucked in, giving you a better chance of a hook hold, where maybe a shorter one wouldn't do this??? I keep them fairly short so, well my way of thinking is, i would like to think the short the presentation is the quicker the indication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beanz Posted October 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Is it the fact if the hooklink is longer then maybe the hook will travel deeper when sucked in, giving you a better chance of a hook hold, where maybe a shorter one wouldn't do this??? but would it?? im thinking that with a runner on a slack line it should fly back as far as its sucked my main bug is im worry that it could increase the case of tangling as the bait is so near the lead with a limp braid link, i got the small bags, so to have the bait in one corner and the lead in the other it would need to be an inch, two at most. i need to get out on the bank to have a play to put mind at ease and gain some confidence with it as the one i played with at home was about 4" and i wasnt happy with how the link looped/curved....it seemed like it would A) stick up off the bottom, and B) as said, risk tangling the other thing that got my head spinning was reading a few post about hook pulls, and lengthening the rig would this make a difference on a runner/slack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysj01 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Personally i think a longer hooklink gives the fish a better chance of getting rid of the hook. Im not sure how sensitive their lips are, but i suspect more bolt from feeling the hooklink on their lips rather than the friction of the lead. I wont use a hooklink over six inches as i want to know i have a bite as soon as possible, so i can hit into the fish. That said it depends entirely on the lake bed, horseshoe is very weedy and hard to present a rig like this, and i have heard of people using hooklinks up to 14 inches, but this is more to do with dealing with weed. What do you think beanz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beanz Posted October 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 i had my 1st 30 and a few other good fish on 20 inch links, i was on a weedy water at the time, over particles as well...tho when i tried it later on in the season and im sure i got done without a bleep, just too many rolling over me to have not had anything...but i didnt really have my head together at the time...with hind sight i think id cleared alot of the weed and short rigs would of scored. so yeah, definitely think too long can work against you, but does have its place, critically balance settling on top of weed id go for a long link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 I don't think that with running leads rig length is as critical as it is with semi-fixed. Because the line is able to run freely through the run ring until the slack is taken up, the rig length is effectively infinite. I don't follow into this theory that the lead will scare the carp either, as a lead on the lakebed pretty much looks like a stone, or will sink into the silt or clay. The main reason for lengthening the link is to avoid the lead pulling the whole hooklink into silt, which may happen with extremely short hooklinks, and to avoid the looping up effect that does happen with most hooklink materials. Obviously shorter hooklinks work better for long distance fishing, with less chance or "wrap round". After all that, I don't want a very short hooklink, or something excessively long. I have a preference for a hooklink of around 20centimetres, either a combi rig that is tangle free, can be cast a fair distance without tangling, fished with or without a bag or stringer or a coated braid hooklink that works the same. If I'm going to fish with PVA bags,mesh or stringers every cast then I will often switch back to plain braid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 Ok, so this weeks take was on the running lead, a combi-rig of about 15cms, which I must admit is fairly short to my usual way of thinking, and was fishing over dead weed with a snowman set-up. The carp was hooked properly in the bottom lip, and the run was an absolute screamer, even in the wind. The indicator pulled up, and line was continuously being taken until I hit the rod. Is this any use? https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=9536&highlight=complicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatch8 Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 I don't believe that the length of your rig will have much affect on the distance between your hookbait and your lead. Unless your have something on your hooklength keeping it straight (eg. a stick) the bait and lead will drop down through the water pretty much together and land very near. A longer length would just mean more line in that area surely and potentially more chance of a tangle? A longer length will only increase the time and distance the fish can go with your hookbait in it's mouth before feeling the lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beanz Posted November 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 Ripslider! ...a blast from the past spatch- there are a few things that can effect how close the baits sit to the lead...a coated braid can help and obviously stiff links, and the old skool drag back....but feeling the lead down can make more of a difference , this will make the lead drop in an arch ( the depth and distance cast will effect the radius of this "arch" though ) the bait follows the lead down but the water is pushing the bait away, as its being dragged down, and towards you, and its that friction against the water(as it comes towards you) that pushes the bait in the other direction(away from the lead)bait size effects this obviously, a bigger surface area will create more fiction. i always feel the lead down, for the reason above and for the feel. id worry if i just let it fall, if there's a the slightest tow i feel the bait could fall on the mainline side and risk tangling....thats with any hooklink material Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatch8 Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 spatch- there are a few things that can effect how close the baits sit to the lead...a coated braid can help and obviously stiff links, and the old skool drag back....but feeling the lead down can make more of a difference , this will make the lead drop in an arch ( the depth and distance cast will effect the radius of this "arch" though ) the bait follows the lead down but the water is pushing the bait away, as its being dragged down, and towards you, and its that friction against the water(as it comes towards you) that pushes the bait in the other direction(away from the lead)bait size effects this obviously, a bigger surface area will create more fiction. i always feel the lead down, for the reason above and for the feel. id worry if i just let it fall, if there's a the slightest tow i feel the bait could fall on the mainline side and risk tangling....thats with any hooklink material Cheers beanz.....well now I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 Ripslider! ...a blast from the past spatch- there are a few things that can effect how close the baits sit to the lead...a coated braid can help and obviously stiff links, and the old skool drag back....but feeling the lead down can make more of a difference , this will make the lead drop in an arch ( the depth and distance cast will effect the radius of this "arch" though ) the bait follows the lead down but the water is pushing the bait away, as its being dragged down, and towards you, and its that friction against the water(as it comes towards you) that pushes the bait in the other direction(away from the lead)bait size effects this obviously, a bigger surface area will create more fiction. i always feel the lead down, for the reason above and for the feel. id worry if i just let it fall, if there's a the slightest tow i feel the bait could fall on the mainline side and risk tangling....thats with any hooklink material That Ripslider, he really did some experimentation to prove or disprove things A person sorely missed on the forum I don't know if you have seen December's Carpology? In the Under the Surface series with Dennis MacFetrich (? spelling), a cast that didn't hit the clip or wasn't feathered, the hooklink ended up tangled around his anti-tangle tubing, presentable, but definitely a tangle. It takes hitting the clip or feathering to make sure that it doesn't tangle when PVA free. Also in the same issue, something I've said before, if the hook and bait is the second item(s) to hit the lakebed after the lead, then the hooklink, no matter what the material may loop up from the lakebed unless weighted down. It may be enough to put you or the fish off, but if the hook and bait is held up a while with a piece of foam, will sink down more slowly and naturally, or may need putty to pull it down. Another method I use when tying my stringers, is to attach the stringer near the lead as well as the hook, but in the process, throwing a loop or 2 around the hooklink. So I have a line of boilies from lead to hook (and beyond), but the looped PVA with boilies attached will also pull the hooklink down. It also obviously helps reduce tangles, and doesn't appear to put the fish off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beanz Posted November 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 i havent seen that.but talking of hitting the clip............ i did see an interesting vid with a diver and a lad casting to his spot, it was an eye opener he clipped and recast and was well off, i think he pulled line off about 10 times in the end, so thats about 20-30 foot off before it went back bang on the money... if you clip up a few times over a sess on 1 spot ...you could end up miles off. i just remember for the like off me where i see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 i havent seen that.but talking of hitting the clip............ i did see an interesting vid with a diver and a lad casting to his spot, it was an eye opener he clipped and recast and was well off, i think he pulled line off about 10 times in the end, so thats about 20-30 foot off before it went back bang on the money... if you clip up a few times over a sess on 1 spot ...you could end up miles off. i just remember for the like off me where i see it I'd worked on roughly 1/3rd of the depth past the marker float to be hitting the spot next to the marker float, can't remember where I got that figure from, Rod Hutchinson maybe. It likely means that we are also ending up well short of snags as well I believe Gary alluded to it earlier, yet maybe could have extended his ideas a bit more on the coiled or straight out hooklink? I was wondering, a braided hooklink is less likely to fall 'straight' out as opposed to a coated, or even combi-rig. Would that 'extending' presentation be more helpful on confidence? It is something that Jim Gibbinson did with concertina'ing braided rigs with Superstiff, so that after it dissolved, the rig would continue extending or unfolding past the 'safety point'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jameschelt85 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Sorry if this is a bit off the point but i just wanted too share it, on a trip a few months ago instead of putting rig tubing above the lead too pin the line down i cut a length of fairly stiff tubing the length of my hooklength and threaded it on so i had tubing between my lead and hook basically a homemade stiff hooklength and i caught on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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