zander1 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 This is something that i have been thinking about for a while, i am starting to go against the use of lead core and so i have started looking for examples or pros and cons of its uses on some other sites to determine the safest way possible of using leadcore. Browsing through Google i came across this fella Mark and his fishing blog I was reading through his blog on leadcore leaders: http://anglersdiary.blogspot.com/2008/08/carp-rigs-leadcore-leaders.html I agreed with some of his theories, and his basics were spot on " I learnt to carp fish I learned to follow some simple rules, always find the carp being one, keep quiet and keep your movements to a minimum being another. Simple common sense things that all anglers should strive to do. Another simple rule I learnt fairly quickly was the simple rule of thumb for shock leaders and that is….if you don’t need one, don’t use one!.The thinking behind the old school leader rule was safety, even back in the late 80’s intelligent carp anglers knew that shock leaders could cause problems in the event of the anglers main line breaking. So where did we go wrong?. Knowing that shock leaders had the potential to cause trouble, how did carp fishing end up down the leadcore leaders route and why do anglers think they are actually safe to use?." This i fully understand whoever, he goes on to say that the CV Safety rig is the only safe way to use leadcore I cant get my head around this... I was looking at the pictures of the CV rig he has posted and i looked at it that the beads and swivel could actually be trapped on the leadcore easier than many other rigs, i was thinking about it for a while and i couldn't see it being any safer than a normal helicopter rig??? Its not that i have never seen or heard of the cv safety rig befor its just that i have never really seen the need for such a thing in my fishing and it is only now that i am starting to think about the leadcore from a safety aspect that i have looked at it in depth. My problem is that i cannot see how this is the safest rig for use with lead core???? I decided to tie one up and have a play around with it- to provoke thought. (the rig) (how the rig components fall away) Yes it does appear to be a safe rig but if the leadcore kinks or some sort of debris collects on the lead core (which it obviously can and does) it instantly becomes a death rig. The normal helicopter rig has the same problems but if you compare them in an open, clean water scenario, the helicopter rig (being less complicated) seems to loose the hooklink much quicker and easier. The only benefit that i can see with the CV compared to the Helicopter is that on the helicopter rig people may be inclined to "fix" the top bead in place to stop the hooklink sliding up and down where as the CV rig doesn't need a bead to be "fixed2 (well semi-fixed but you know what i mean). Im guessing that you will also get more chance of a tangled hooklink with the CV compared to the Helicopter rig as the hook link cant spin? So what i'm asking is, what are your views on the safety of this rig? Whether or not you think that this rig should be pushed as the "only" safe way to use leadcore? and generally just your thoughts on the matter? Thank you for taking the time to read this, Jack. btw I'm not trying to start the leadcore good vs bad thread (like the leader or not thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonezy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Looks safe to me, if somewhat unnecessary - would rather use the normal version myself. Out of interest, what beads are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zander1 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The smaller of the two is a Korda rubber bead, the slightly larger is an ESP one mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonezy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Cheers mate, getting fed up of all these translucent beads that seem to be knocking about nowadays. Show up like beacons in the Pacific ocean, they do! Aint got any spare packs of ESP beads (5mm) knocking about, have ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zander1 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 The ESP ones are actually translucent mate- ( translucent brown and the transluescent green) I haven't mate either, i need to get some more Fox do some 5mm dark green ones, and i think the old(er) ESP ones aren't translucent either??? If you can find some from somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonezy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Yeah, the old ones are the jobbies. Can't see why they changed them. Anyway, back on topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levigsp Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Why the bead above the hook,absalutely no need for it,and all it does is make it difficult to come apart. The rig would be safe without the bead. However the rig CANNOT work correctly as a helicoper rig,the link simply cannot spin. The whole idea of a helicopter rig is that the lead goes first for distance and the hook link spins to stop it from tangling round the leader. If you used very stiff or very short links it might work,but why go to all the trouble. A correctly tied up chod/helicopter rig using smooth leaders/line and not leadcore work very safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorsey Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Zander, I totally agree with you mate. That rig cannot be as safe as a standard heli/chod rig where the beads can slide off without hindrance. The additional loop of lead core only serves to hold the top bead down the core during casting and does in fact stop the hook link from being able to spin (which is where the heli rig got its name from) so the whole rig is more prone to tangling during the cast and any tangle would then make that a potential death rig. I would just add that the original CV rig didn't use the loop of lead core as shown but a curved piece of wire with a loop at each end but even so WHY???? I also agree with your comments about "how did we ever end up using all sorts of leaders when they are not needed." The answer really is that we have been brainwashed by tackle companies (and I'm still an ESP consultant) into believing that if we just add a length of lead core, a shock leader, a flying back lead and a captive back lead (to the manufacturers all profitable items) then we are going to catch more fish. Rubbish, none of them are needed and most of them can work against you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker74 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 i got a mate of mine who buys the mags eventually i get them chucked my way. i think it was advan carp fishing nov08, with an article on some bloke who takes the lead out of the core and replaces it wth a length of 60lb flurocarbon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorsey Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 i got a mate of mine who buys the mags eventually i get them chucked my way. i think it was advan carp fishing nov08, with an article on some bloke who takes the lead out of the core and replaces it wth a length of 60lb flurocarbon But why would you want to hide transparent fluoro inside a lead core sheath?? Perhaps it's easier to find when you wind in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker74 Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 from what i remember the 60lb flouro adds extra weight and is less prone to kinking, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zander1 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Cheers for your replies lads. Glad to know that im not on my own thinking this Moorsey- And I cant understand why the metal loop is needed either- seems even more unnecessary and dangerous than the leadcore version- especially as you have to glue beads and things like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marker Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 hi zander, thats my blog so perhaps i should try and explain lol as keith points out, the old cv safety rig doesn't use a loop of leadcore, it uses a solid wire loop and its there to stop the hooklink running back up the leadcore (the loop actually spins as its loose fitting and it must be a solid metal loop not leadcore as you've done!). its needed because the top bead has an exceptionally wide bore and it isn't held in place with anything unlike a conventional helicopter rig (its so loose your hooklink would simply end up sliding off your leadcore on the cast without the loop). obviously the wide bore is to make sure the bead and in turn the hooklink can come away in the event of a breakage, the bore of the bead is wide enough to pass over a leader knot or a splice if its set up correctly, its about as safe as you can get for leadcore although probrably not as safe as not using it at all and if you read the whole entry you'll see that its actually an anti leadcore message with a safest option for those that choose to bury their heads in the sand and tell themselves its safe to use if that makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zander1 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Thanks for the reply Marker I did read it all mate, that's what provoked so much thought about it I looked all over the web for leadcore debates and to define the safety of it as im starting to turn against the stuff, but i dont want to stop using it completely. In the fox guide to modern carping they tie the CV safety rig with leadcore???? (much the same as i did to see how it works) Isnt the metal loop on your rig glued in place between two beads??? I just cant see any benefits to the use of the CV safety rig, a simple helicopter is easier to tie and thus safer in most hands and there are less things to go wrong on it???? Its interesting to know that the Blog is yours as most of what i have read has been interesting and has provoked thought. When it comes down to leadcore vs Fluro/mono shock leader Vs Tubing, tubing is the only safe leader, i understand this but i cant see why there is so much anti leadcore and pro fluro (which i use for the most of my fishing), but that is indeed for another thread And btw, i had no intent on using it at all, so dont worry too much about my leadcore set-up, that was just to get my head around the basic mechanics of the set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marker Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 the bottom beads are fixed in place jack, the loop is free to rotate around. the top bead is very wide bore as is the top loop. its the bore of the top bead and the top loop that makes the rig safer than a standard helicopter rig when you use a leader and your line breaks, you have to make sure any stop beads can clear the leader knot/splice. the cv safety rig is a helicopter setup that was designed to make this as easy as possible. i must admit i ducked writing about leaders for ages and it took me a while to pull that entry together, even then i still wasn't sure about it but i put it out anyway with the hope that it would get people thinking if nothing else, so i'm glad its given you food for thought personally i won't use leadcore or any other kind of leader because i don't believe they are as safe as tubing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levigsp Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Zander a quote from you " i understand this but i cant see why there is so much anti leadcore and pro fluro (which i use for the most of my fishing), but that is indeed for another thread " The answer is on this forum in a few places if you look, I amoungs't others have writen about it. But to refresh here are a couple of reasons . Leadcore kinks badley in its natural state and it also kinks very badly when the core comes through the side wall. When this happens you might as well have the hook tied to it. Leadcore is extreemly abrasive, get a length and see how easy it cuts into something . I for the life of me do not know why anybody needs to lock beads onto any helicopter or other similar rig,it simply is not nessasary. Length of suitable leader fastend to lead, bead [tightish fitting] slid down leader, hook link atatched to a swivel is slid down leader, another bead[big bore hole] is slid down leader and then the mainline is tied to the leader. The two beads can be set far apart as in a chod rig or close as in standard heli, the mechanics work either way. I simple knot of pva tape on the cast keeps everything in place, and if the unthinkable happens and you part of, it all comes apart quite easerly. If you choose to fish helicopter type rigs, fish them safe,and that means simple and loose Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peewee_s Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Anyone used the new jrc helicopter set up designed by dave lane. When they first came out every review was very favourable towards them. Is there any such thing as a safe rig using lead core as the majority are now saying you only need a kink and it renders the rig unsafe. Even a running rig with leadcore could now be classed as usafe due to the kinking of the leadcore. Paul forward gets some stick in carpworld feb issue as it suggested his leadcore set up is unsafe.His blood must be boiling to suggest he would put a carp at risk. The debate rages on With many high profile anglers at each others throats.Anglers are now saying fish with no leaders no tubing just mono behind the lead, what about the scales of the fish lifting fish getting sliced by mono etc etc it just gets so confusing reading so many differant oppinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zander1 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 The debate rages on With many high profile anglers at each others throats.Anglers are now saying fish with no leaders no tubing just mono behind the lead, what about the scales of the fish lifting fish getting sliced by mono etc etc it just gets so confusing reading so many differant oppinions Hi peewee_s , this isnt a rant at you in anyway, i dont do that lol There is a point where every rig imaginable is unsafe in some way or other, but as highlighted, leadcore is amongst the least safe with many different opinions on it, however i ask you this, in all the years you have been fishing, have you ever lifted a scale whilst float, zig or surface fishing??? Even if you have, or anyone else has, the lifting of a scale isnt as bad as a fish dieing from being tethered by a miss-used /dangerous rig, or damage caused via the anglers ignorance for the fishes well being during landing, weighing or photographing the capture etc. I have mixed views on leadcore, my opinion of it has changed and is changing along with my views on alot of other things, Im pretty sure i have contradicted alot of my older posts along the way. Magazines work on fads, and its people that use leadcore (for example) because its the "fashion", and not because they actually need to use something to help better their own fishing and for that i personally think that teh mags and certain anglers have alot to answer for People should have their own opinions, instead of being sheep. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 The debate rages on With many high profile anglers at each others throats.Anglers are now saying fish with no leaders no tubing just mono behind the lead, what about the scales of the fish lifting fish getting sliced by mono etc etc it just gets so confusing reading so many differant oppinions Hi peewee_s , this isnt a rant at you in anyway, i dont do that lol There is a point where every rig imaginable is unsafe in some way or other, but as highlighted, leadcore is amongst the least safe with many different opinions on it, however i ask you this, in all the years you have been fishing, have you ever lifted a scale whilst float, zig or surface fishing??? Even if you have, or anyone else has, the lifting of a scale isnt as bad as a fish dieing from being tethered by a miss-used /dangerous rig, or damage caused via the anglers ignorance for the fishes well being during landing, weighing or photographing the capture etc. I have mixed views on leadcore, my opinion of it has changed and is changing along with my views on alot of other things, Im pretty sure i have contradicted alot of my older posts along the way. Magazines work on fads, and its people that use leadcore (for example) because its the "fashion", and not because they actually need to use something to help better their own fishing and for that i personally think that teh mags and certain anglers have alot to answer for People should have their own opinions, instead of being sheep. Jack Sorry Mate, I've got to laugh, because I can remember some ding dongs we had over Leadcore. And before that, like you I used to use the stuff myself, but some debates on here and some experiments convinced me otherwise. Like you my views have changed totally since I was used it after seeing the results first hand, so my posts will also be contradictory The original CV Safety Rig I remember thinking "does that make a Helicopter rig any safer. It keeps the beads together with the swivel etc". I had my own method of making sure that the Beads and swivel could slide off any leader. Easy and Cheap from the Sea Fishing section, Cox and Rawle Rig bodies. It looked like a Dumbell bead but it came apart. A large bore top bead that slid over a bottom section making a dumbell apearance with the rig swivel "trapped" (figuratively, not literally) between the two sections. In the event of a break, the top bead could slide over the leader knot and the rig swivel could do the same. Since then on most occasions I have found very little use for Helicopter rigs as most of my fishing has been with Running leads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorsey Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Good post Nick. I don't think anyone can be more contradictory than someone like me who even went to the trouble to invent a knot especially to make lead core "safe". The end result is that my knot is still the safest to allow beads and swivel to slide off of the end of the lead core but that still doesn't make the product itself safe. No matter what rig you use lead core has two distinctly "unsafe" properties:- 1. It kinks and holds that kink very easily. 2. It is prone to the core poking out through the sheath. Both of these properties will prevent beads and swivels from being able to be released and thereby making any rig a death rig. A few more things that we, as anglers, should also be aware of:- 1. Any rig, such as the running rig suggested in the magazine, which invloves attaching a hook link to the end of a section of lead core will leave the fish towing the lead core and thereby put that fish in danger. 2. One of the main "sales pitches" for using lead core is that "it pins down your line and follows the contours of the lake bed." Yet another load of bull which turns out to be totally untrue. A length of lead core is simply not heavy enough and too stiff to follow any but the smoothest of contours of any lake bed so is in fact probably costing you fish. I would offer this advice to any angler who currently uses lead core. Find a lake with something like 2 feet depth of water in a margin somewhere and lower your lead core rig into that margin. Stand above it and look down. Assuming that you are about six feet tall your eyes will now be at least seven feet from your rig and, no matter how well you have tried to match the colours, you will be able to pick out the length of lead core very easily. Now try to realise that you actually expect a carp to virtually touch that piece of lead core without noticing it and the carp will be much more "tuned" to his surroundings than you can ever be. Basically lead core should be banned from every lake and we will then have less tethered and damaged carp and more of the "odduns" put on the bank. Sorry for the rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levigsp Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Keith my genuine opinion is You have nothing to be sorry for. Anything you[or anyone else] can say that will stop people using leadcore has to be a good thing. Another point at least you have the guts to ban it on your fishery,lots don't. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moorsey Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Thanks mate. Very kind words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimshelley Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 NO IT SHOULDNT be banned. uncle jim KIR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levigsp Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 NO IT SHOULDNT be banned.uncle jim KIR Jim I wish to ask some questions without offending you I know you use leadcore and also try to teach others how to use it safely,but what is your answer to the following. Leadcorwe kinks easerly. Leadcore has a tendency for the lead to poke through the side wall. Leadcore is abrasive. Leadcore easerly snags up in snags. Just interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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