Complicated Rigs.

[Guest Anonymous]

this has to be the best thread on the forum at the moment and everyone should read it as they will learn something. i have to say that im not a rig angler and tend to use very few different rigs whereever im fishing as i believe that location and bait will catch any carp in the country. one thing i will agree with is that nick is correct when he talks about the paternoster rig being the most sensitive try fishing a paternoster rig on a swingtip rod and see how many indications you get compared witha more normal set up on bite alarms. i think that all the thinking anglers on this post have valid statements to make about there fishing adam is correct about hiding tubing etc on the deck so as not to spook the carp but at the sametime steve is also correct about the neutral density of tubing, line etc. my personal belief is that a carp will not spook off tubing and i use it with great confidence in 95% of my fishing. i tend to think that 99% of the new super duper advertised rigs shown in the mags are not needed by 99% of the anglers in this country fishing for 99% of the carp that reside here. one good point that steve makes is that he doesnt think that a carp will accept a bait that behaves differently to the other 50 baits around it, this is something that i will agree with most of the time. this is the reason that i no longer use critically balanced baits as to many times ive seen carp waving there pecs around a bed of baits and then totally ignoring the one that jumps up off the lake bed and says eat me. anyway just to finish i use simple bottom bait long hair rig baits for 99% of my fishing and im happy with my results on the waters i fish compared with the other anglers on there.

[salokcinnodrog]

I must add to the Tubing Debate.

 

I think that what scares fish as has been mentioned is the tightness of the Line or tubing.

 

I use Leadcore on 2 of my rods and Solar Tubing on 1.

Strangely enough I have had 4 Carp from my Reservoir on Leadcore, compared to 1 on Tubing. Not very substantial odds I know, but of all the Bream I have caught as well I think only 2 have come on the Tubing Rod, compared to 50 odd on Leadcore.

 

I have checked the tubing in the Margins, and it is the same colour as the weed and with a dash of Lead wire on the end it sinks flat to the bottom and can't be distinguished from the bottom.

 

Leadcore also sinks straight to the bottom, but in the slightly siltier water at depth takes on the silt, so actually sinks into it. After retrieving it and going out to compare the 2 in the water neither could be seen against the bottom, but the tubing could be felt against the hand, yet not the Leadcore.

 

In terms of rigs that give best indications for us Carp Anglers who have to sleep sometime, I think the Running Lead and Slack Line approach is by far the best option if possible. In Weed I know what the majority of Anglers say, that they need a Semi Fixed Lead, either on a Lead Clip or tied on, but I have had no problem with Running Leads. I have had no snagged fish, no lost leads and no problems playing fish through weed and also received instant indication at the buzzer.

 

As Jemsue says though if the Fish are confident in your Bait, and the rig you are using is effective then you should not need the most complicated rig just beccause it is fashionable. Look at the damage the Bent Hook rig did to "Our" Fish. The rig was designed for particular feeding on a particular water, then got taken out of context and severely damaged many fish when it was used willy nilly.

 

We have many things we can play around with on a standard rig, hair length, rig length, are just 2. With changing just those 2 things we could probably hook the majority of the Carp in the Waters we have today.

[Guest Anonymous]

as nick says changing the length of hair or and rig will make a major difference to most peoples results. i tend to use longer hairs than most anglers and longer rigs up to 18 inches and have found it has given me a positive increase of fish on the bank.

[marcustackley]

I am 100% sure that it's the feel of the end tackle that causes the carp to spook, and it has little to do with sight. The sensitivity of the carps' barbules and lips far outweigh it's eyesight and it's the unnatural feeling of end game components that cause the carp to spook. Like Salok I almost exclusively use leadcore instead of tubing after watching Underwater and doing the hand and foot test myself. I almost exclusively fish silty waters which means the leadcore sinks slightly in to the soft detritus and over time takes on the natural smell of the lake bed rather than the rubbery artificial smell of the tubing.

[salokcinnodrog]

Marcus,

I agree with you about the feel of the End Tackle, but I think there is something else in that as well, The Behaviour of the the Bait and Hook.

I think it was Rod Hutchinson who first queried this in The Carp Strikes Back although I think it was in relation to fishing Sweetcorn at Redmire and how the Bait Behaved and how the Carp were coming onto the Baited Patch.

 

If everyone is fishing 4-6inch rigs made with Fluorocarbon or Mono with the bait tight to the hook then the Bait is going to behave differently to that presented on an Inch Hair and a 18inch Braid Hooklength.

The bait/hook on the 2nd rig is going to behave with more freedom and is more likely to find a spot to take hold than that on the "Usual" rig that the Majority are using. But to be sure that we are getting the best from our "Unusual Rig" we need the best Lead Fixing possible, so I would if possible fish a Paternoster, failing that a Running Lead and Slack Line.

[marcustackley]

There's two different topics touched on there, the behaviour of bait and the quality of the terminal tackle. It's possible to have carp feeding confidently in your baited spot without the hookbait being touched - i.e. your terminal tackle is constructed so that carp don't associate it with danger, but your hookbait is unnatural enough to ensure feeding fish won't touch it.

 

Likewise you can have spooky fish taking a natural looking hookbait, so you make a valid point there Salok

 

On a slightly different tack, carp in one of my local gravel pits regularly pick stones up and mouth them before ejecting them, so I thought i'd balance my hookbaits to ensure there's little suction required to pick up my bait. I combined this with short stiff links and heavy leads to ensure hook penetration on 'mouthing' and whilst I had some success it couldn't be described as hectic. I then started mixing Richworth's pop-up mix in to my base mix to create wafters as I thought the size of the snowman set up I'd been using was too big and clumsy for the carp being fished for, but this didn't turn them on either. Recently I've started making the hookbaits heavy, these require a lot of suction to move - bingo! - the twitches have turned in to runs when combined with a tight hair pattern.

 

Bit off topic I know but it highlights it doesn't necessarily all come down to the lead size and fixing

[ripslider]

Apologies for bmnping this thread.

 

I few months ago, I posted that I was looking for "the perfect hooklength" which was totally bouyant and acted unlike anyother hooklength.

 

I think I've found it!

 

A few weeks ago, I got hold of some Berkeley SpiderWire, which is a micro-braid. This stuff is as fine as 1lb line ( 0.06mm) but has a breaking strain of 20lb. ( I measure it at about 19.5).

 

I got it for Pike fishing, but on playing with it, it turns out that, at current temp's, it is virtually neutral in bouyancy. It sinks fractionally, but is as close as damn it to perfect.

 

Over the last few weeks, I have been using it on one of my two rods. The pick up rate has been almost double that of my nylon hooklengths ( and I use really good nylon, Matchwinner is like cotton rather than nylon it's that limp ).

 

I think it's a combination of the fineness of the line and the way it moves, or doesn't move the bait in the water.

 

Anywho, am hugely impressed, and this will almost certainly be my hooklength of choice for the next couple of seasons so I can give it a good go.

 

If you have any lying around, definately give it a go.

 

Steve

[salokcinnodrog]

Alright Marcus

 

I've seen Carp picking up stones as well. I think it was Rod Hutchinson who reckoned that if you coated a stone with a flavour impregnated icing and the Carp picked it up, on a short hair you "should " hook it.

 

To go back to Adamxx's point about spooking off Line and Tubing, I think I have touched on this before, but not with a definite answer.

 

To my mind Tubing, Line and Leadcore are normally fished tight and straight. How many things are the Carp's Environment are perfectly straight? If a Carp touches weed it moves and curves out of the way, yet if a Carp touches any of our End Tackle, including Line it pulls it taut against itself and possibly spooks. Now even in a weed free environment our Tight Lines can scare/spook or put Carp on guard against our End Tackle.

 

It seems to me that many rigs are working on instant hooking, not Anti Eject, although the turning effect caused by the hook going into the Carp's mouth is presumed to be Anti Eject (its not).

 

The other thing that again most people fish with is a short hair, more shank mounted baits than actually on a hair rig. As Jemsue says lengthen the Hair or Hooklength. Yet to cast that out is/can be a pain in the rectum. Rod Hutchinson's sliding hair is a very effective way of presenting a longer hair. This confuses Carp that take 1 suck to test the bait, which is drawn closer to the fish. The short haired baits then can't be taken on a 2nd suck as the hair is too short. The sliding hair baits are still able to be taken in on that 2nd suck. Yes it does happen, I have watched it.

 

I think that I get happy with simple rigs and then I go and "complicate" the issue.

 

Now regarding braids versus monos/fluorocarbons, another test that I tried was to feel the hooklength against my lips. With the braids they did not "feel" when touching my lips, it felt more natural. The monos and Fluorocarbons I could feel and to me they almost gave a shock on my lip.

 

Yet most anglers at the moment are using Nylon Hooklengths, NOT Braids. The suppleness I think means that the hooklength is able to be taken in with less Resistance. I can see the point of Nylon in relation to Anti Eject, but again see my Point above.

 

Steve in relation to your Spider Wire testing for Carp, I had the same idea a few years ago, but was worried due to the fact that the line is so thin that it may cause a "cheesewire" effect on the Carp's mouth while playing it.

 

The thinnest Braid that I found that I was happy with was Kryston Supersilk. Drennan do produce a very thin braid, but I have the same reservations regarding it as I do the Spiderwire, even though the Diameter is much higher.

 

I did have a testing medium that I used with a fixed weight that I pulled against while testing these braids, admittedly dry. The braids I tested were the Spiderwire, Drennan andone of Nash's braids. Unfortunately I have some rather nasty scars on my fingers where I managed to get a loop trapped round my finger while pulling it against the weight of my Workmate. The workmate fell over while testing and I couldn't let go in time.

 

As Steve has bumped this thread up, quite fortuitously there are a couple more of my thoughts. Again I'm happy to be proved wrong, or if anyone has anymore ideas please add to the Complicated Scenarios that are currently ongoing!!!

 

:D

 

Nick

[mvodkaman]

i fished a water that contained a lot of silkweed ,searching for a decent presentation i tried various different hooklinks.

fox megasilk was incredibly thin and looked and reacted just like silkweed ,perfect presentation i thought and it was ,trouble was first carp i landed had its mouth cut very deeply due to the cheesewire effect ,have not used it since........

[ripslider]

If I'm not too bad at maths, the pressure that 0.06mm line will exert on on a carps mouth is about 5.5 times what .035mm line will, assumng that there is a centimetre of linbe in the mouth.

 

I'll give it a go for now, but I will drop it the instant I see any damage. I have been mostly eel fishing lately, and they do have pretty soft mouths, and really grate against the line, and I have seen no damage. I have not seen any on a carp either.

 

Steve

[ripslider]

Having just read Tony Miles article about braided lines in this months Coarse Fisherman, I'm going to totally abandon the briad idea. I know he is talking about briad when it is many yard long, and we're talking about only a few inches, but it's enough to put me off.

 

Will go back to hunting for a different rig material.

 

Steve

[crazycarpkid]

i have used difficult rigs combi rigs, d rigs, bent rigs ect ect but i have had my biggest fish of 28lb 5oz on a simply running lead with a 10 centimeter hybrid hook length y over complicate things when you can do better when you dont makes me wonder...

[courtz]

i've had a 21 on a mono knotless knot rig.

 

And a 24 on freelined bread.

 

proves that simplicity can be the key

[salokcinnodrog]

Strangley enough the "simple" rigs that work well are the same rigs that I was fishing effectively with over 10years ago. My PB came on a double 18mm bottom bait on a long hair, line aligned braid hooklength of 20cms, those same rigs are still working for me today.

 

The only thing that I have changed is the hook itself, as I found that with a Drennan Super Specialist the point got taken off too easily on gravel. When I caught my PB I actually lowered the End Tackle into the water so I could see that it had gone down safely.

 

The hooks I use now are the Carp-R-Us Nailers, Centurions and Owners, these hooks on the same rigs have produced plenty of Big Fish for me up to 26lbs, and some of them from pressured waters; Yew Tree, Taverham Mills amongst others.

 

The one thing that has changed is I have gone from a Semi-Fixed Lead to a Running Lead, for 2 reasons:

1) Everyone and his dog seems to fish a Semi-Fixed lead or Helicopter rig.

2) I feel I get better and more instant Indication with a Running Lead.

 

Yet I know the best for Indication would be a Paternoster rig, but you actually have to be sat on the rods to hit a take, as many of my fish come at night I can't be awake for 24hours, although someone will say that I seem never to sleep:p

 

I think until someone comes up with something new on this subject ,and there is a lot of it, I'm going over stuff that has been said before.

[pineaplepopup]

this thread has just blone me away i must of read it four times! some of the comments on here especially off ripslider on page oneare brilliant. this has just mad me totaly change my approach to fishing.

 

 

but i think that complicated rigs have been made to do a certain job, such as the withy pool rig was developed to make a harder to eject rig. i think that at first on a unfished water we shud use the simplist rig possible then when the carp wise up slighlty change the rig, may be add a bit of strink tubing. as each rig gets wised up to this is when we change rigs over to give another new option to the carp. but i do beleive that rigs are devleoped and invented to over come a problem. withy 4 its anti eject properties the chod and the helipcopter to be able to fish in silt .

i dont think they are made to fill magazine pages. but to solve a situation and to fool the carp. when i fish i fish the simplist way possible i fish the more complicated rigs when the simpler ones wont catch, but 9 times out of ten the simplist comes out on top for me. shaun

[salokcinnodrog]

Thats the thing. Most rigs were designed to do a specific job on a specific water. The Hutchinson Sliding Hair Rig, the Withy Pool Rig and The D-Rig are all examples.

 

A simple hair rig WILL work on most waters, but once the Carp start getting wary the majority of the time the easy way to start catching again is to lengthen the Hair and/or Hooklength.

 

The Withy Pool Rig if I remember rightly was designed for Fish that were not willing to take High Pop-ups that were needed to counter the Crayfish in Withy Pool, i.e the pop-up was being ejected too easily, so a long curved extension was added to make it difficult to eject. Who is to say that the Savay Rig would not have worked?

 

Incidentally I believe it was Zenon Bojko who designed the Helicopter Rig, not for fishing in Silt, but for its Tangle free Long Distance Casting Properties. (Beekay's "Carp" by Rob Maylin).

It was discovered that by having a top bead set further up the line that a good silt set-up could be created, and was published by Tim Paisley in Big Carp, over 10years ago.

[Malc 1950]

I am a big believer in simple.For most of my fishing i use 15lb amnesia,black or clear depending on situation,and 15lb IQ.If i get takes with no result i will alter the length of hair and or length of rig.If i still get takes and the fish drops it i will go onto braid.

 

This yr the only thing i am changing is rather than use a swivel on the hooklink i will tie a loop and use the quick links. I am also going to use flying backleads.

[Guest Anonymous]

I am a big believer in simple.For most of my fishing i use 15lb amnesia,black or clear depending on situation,and 15lb IQ.If i get takes with no result i will alter the length of hair and or length of rig.If i still get takes and the fish drops it i will go onto braid.

 

This yr the only thing i am changing is rather than use a swivel on the hooklink i will tie a loop and use the quick links. I am also going to use flying backleads.

 

 

 

Its easy for us to say we catch fish on simple rigs but would we actually get more pick ups on a more complicated rig?

Whats to say they don't pick up our simple rig loads of times without us even knowing about it? Would these pickups result in landed fish if we used more complicated rigs? or are they just another thing to go wrong?

 

I do use very simple rigs most of the time but I always wonder if I could get more takes by using complicated rigs, I do try using both types on different rods but its hard to tell if the fish was caught because of the rig or the position of the rig, the way it was sitting on the bottom etc.

[Malc 1950]

I have to be honest,Adam,if i am doing a 3 dayer i really don't want to be sat there worrying and thinking about my presentation.You are however right in what you say.I don't do enough fishing to experiment,wish i did.Last yr i lost 2 fish,one took me through a nasty snag and the other turned at the net and threw the hook.I did on one occasion get a day when i had loads of runs and by the time i got to the rod it stopped.For some reason this was happening all round the lake,i did try different rigs but still the same.I walked round the lake asking the other guys and they couldn't understand it either.But early hours it went mental,i had 3 fish and a total of 23 out between 9 anglers.From 10 am that day not another run for anyone until the following day.

[bobmarley123]

In my opinion, the more simple the rig, the more effective (with the right materials). I use the ESP Sinklink, with the Kamasan B175 Fly Hook (size 6/8) tied straight to a korda ring swivel. no tubing, rings, loops, mini swivels, etc. im not saying that other rigs dont work, but i feel that the most simple rig u can get away with, the better.

 

however, im a firm believer that if you are successfully catching on something, then STICK TO IT!

[bobmarley123]

i used my simple rig to catch this 35lb 12oz common (known as the sergeant). this was just another contribution to my idea of sticking to what you are confident in.

[patos1]

Stunning fish there Bob. If thats the sergeant whats the general like:eek:

[Guest Anonymous]

Cracking fish mate just goes to show simple rigs are we need.

[fosco]

that fish shows us that we DONT need complicated rigs

 

 

cracking fish fella:D

[stevejb]

hi, great thread, did anybody take any of it on board with their fishing & if so how did it affect it ?