Guest Dez Animaux Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I used fishmeals religiously for decades, seeking out only old classics like GLM, Crab, Prawn, Salmon, Shellfish flavours etc. etc. It was only after I joined a Syndicate just over a year ago that things changed.. I tried my favourite fishmeal bait on there, a bait I had massive confidence in, and it let me down for the first time ever with a hard to stomach two weeks of blank nights. The bailiff took pity on me and asked me what I was using, he soon out me right and explained that they had a taste for nut and fruit flavours on there. It was fun shopping about and a real eye opener as to what was out there, there are LOADS of terrific quality nutmix type baits about, birdfood milks, and fruit flavour blends Very soon after acquiring a selection of new baits to try I had a six take session with five landed, and this was when conditions were NOT promising, in the middle of the July/August heatwave of this year.. The baits of note were: Dt Baits Supafruit, Manilla, DT's N Blend, Cell, Vitalac, Red Amo, and Signature hookbaits. I mixed a few flavours together and they didn't seem to mind. I drenched the lot in Mainline's superb liquids such as pineapple, and condensed coconut milk. I love the smell of these baits, the incredible digestibility and effectiveness of them, and I will probably never go back to the fishmeals now, they are a bit old hat and getting ever and ever more expensive now anyway.. I never expected such a dramatic uplift in catches after simply changing bait style/flavours. I chose one or two from the list which I knew were working for others on the lake and not just for me, and gave some of the other stuff away, having too many baits on the go gets confusing as well as very expensive, it's best to have just one favourite dealer who can supply all your needs in one go.. I think I made a fairly solid choice of just a couple from the list but would happily use any of them again, any time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yonny Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 I've also found that waters can respond differently to fishmeals/nut baits/milks/birdfoods, but my most successful periods have come to a good fishmeal. If I had to stick to one type, it'd be fishmeals without doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 10 hours ago, Dez Animaux said: I used fishmeals religiously for decades, seeking out only old classics like GLM, Crab, Prawn, Salmon, Shellfish flavours etc. etc. It was only after I joined a Syndicate just over a year ago that things changed.. I tried my favourite fishmeal bait on there, a bait I had massive confidence in, and it let me down for the first time ever with a hard to stomach two weeks of blank nights. The bailiff took pity on me and asked me what I was using, he soon out me right and explained that they had a taste for nut and fruit flavours on there. It was fun shopping about and a real eye opener as to what was out there, there are LOADS of terrific quality nutmix type baits about, birdfood milks, and fruit flavour blends Very soon after acquiring a selection of new baits to try I had a six take session with five landed, and this was when conditions were NOT promising, in the middle of the July/August heatwave of this year.. The baits of note were: Dt Baits Supafruit, Manilla, DT's N Blend, Cell, Vitalac, Red Amo, and Signature hookbaits. I mixed a few flavours together and they didn't seem to mind. I drenched the lot in Mainline's superb liquids such as pineapple, and condensed coconut milk. I love the smell of these baits, the incredible digestibility and effectiveness of them, and I will probably never go back to the fishmeals now, they are a bit old hat and getting ever and ever more expensive now anyway.. I never expected such a dramatic uplift in catches after simply changing bait style/flavours. I chose one or two from the list which I knew were working for others on the lake and not just for me, and gave some of the other stuff away, having too many baits on the go gets confusing as well as very expensive, it's best to have just one favourite dealer who can supply all your needs in one go.. I think I made a fairly solid choice of just a couple from the list but would happily use any of them again, any time! First thing is that some fishmeal baits are absolutely brilliant, on most waters, although at certain times and on runs waters other baits may prove their woth. Long term fishmeal baits include Nutrabaits Big Fish Mix, Trigga, and more, but it is getting the best out of them that not everyone understands. On 'overstocked' waters, high attract non fishmeal baits can be better for the angler doing quick trips, yet as a long term bait fishmeal baits can produce more. In summer, higher carbohydrate, birdfood baits with a quick leakage can produce more, the first nutritional requirement is energy, carbohydrates and fats. Protein for growth is not the first need! The fishmeals will produce, but not as first choice. There are alternatives, meat meals, chicken, liver, beef which will work long term. My choice for a long term bait is most definitely a fishmeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Like the others there is nothing like a good quality fishmeal to help the carp meet it's dietary requirements to keep them healthy. I have been on a water where they didn't really respond to fishmeals when I was there originally but I returned for a session last year and had 3 on a fish/liver bait. Quote It was fun shopping about and a real eye opener as to what was out there, there are LOADS of terrific quality nutmix type baits about, birdfood milks, and fruit flavour blends By flavour I guess you are meaning the overall smell of the bait ? , carp don't detect smell like humans do (some would argue they don't even smell as such but have a function is the equivalent), yes there some great mixes out there based on some of the above but they offer very little back to the fish in the way of nutritional value, there main function is for quick leakage of liquid based attractors. There greatest expanse of energy is when they feed so they will keep picking baits up that they think are food in hope it is giving them something back, but they wise up to the fact that they get nothing back from certain items eventually. Also fruit and nut flavours can work on a fishmeal bait, some of the best fishmeals have a fruit flavour added to them BFM with cranberry springs to mind. Quote I drenched the lot in Mainline's superb liquids such as pineapple, and condensed coconut milk. Never used these as they are not much more than glycerine and flavour with a dye added, just like the activators (before you ask I have seen lab analysis on the activators and there isn't really much to them unless you like paying for water). Quote I love the smell of these baits, the incredible digestibility and effectiveness of them, and I will probably never go back to the fishmeals now, they are a bit old hat and getting ever and ever more expensive now anyway.. I never expected such a dramatic uplift in catches after simply changing bait style/flavours. That word again smell, it is how they smell to you as a human not the fish (how baits smell to humans is like a bait company jedi mind trick 😁), on a giving the fish something back argument there is nothing in use in the bait industry that betters some of the fish/krill/squid based meals on nutritional value for the fish. Also although you seem to be doing well at the minute and I hope you milk it for ever fish you can, from my experience these types of bait can tail off alot quicker. Also its down to how much you feel flavours play in the great bait puzzle, most offer very little . Due to the lack of nutritional value in most of the above mixes they mainly disappear straight down the poop chute and end up getting crapped out all over your mat Quote I chose one or two from the list which I knew were working for others on the lake and not just for me The best anglers on here you will find have 1 bait they have complete trust in and they keep to it, if your on 1 water and tend to stay on that water keeping to 1 bait and not over complicating it will work better than changing all the time to what is in vogue. That said if you are fishing multiple waters then a high attract bait can pay dividends. Quote In summer, higher carbohydrate, birdfood baits with a quick leakage can produce more, the first nutritional requirement is energy, carbohydrates and fats. Protein for growth is not the first need! Was lead to something recently Nick that suggested that they really struggle with the complex carbs that appear in some baits and there main sources of energy come from lipids and certain protein conversion, was from a good source but left me scratching my head so make of it what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Quote 'hutch'' mate I saw what happened to my results by switching to non-fishmeals so that's good enough for me mate, results improved drastically and they loved the big name baits If its working for you that's great confidence is key element to successful angling. I was just highlighting the fact that in respect of giving the fish something from the bait you are feeding them fish/meat based products are king, some of the nut products in use have there place as well to an extent. Quote I liked the nice smelling nutty baits and whether the carp liked them too or liked the chemorecepticalisationals, the effect was the same they loved it too But they don't have a sense of smell mate, so pretty much all detection of items has to come via gustatory or chemoreception its the only way they a fish can detect what is food and what isn't, even a nut or bird mix will have something that appeals to them on 1 of those levels either via ingredients in the mix or liquid attractants. oscsha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Quote I don't agree that the best anglers stick with one bait, not a bit of it I should have put a specific boilie, not bait, bait expands far beyond just the humble boilie, so they may stick to one boilie but will bring other items of bait in to play as and when they determine it is required. the best boilie mixes are generally balanced these days rather than being 1 specific type. Quote don't agree with how you overcomplicate things, I know of VERY experienced anglers who swear by certain flavours over others Over complicate how ?? a carp is a carp right still has the same dietary requirements how it gets those can vary from water to water, I never said all flavours were useful just a high percentage, there are still some out there that are pretty good and companies blending them to a high standard, a good flavour has many chemical components scopex has around 15/16 from a good supplier and JB Plum has around 20+ I think, some of which are attractive to our cyprinid friends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Nope not all components in a flavours make up are attractive to carp, but certain elements in some are. Quote I'm not into bait making mate, tried it and hate it Fair enough, its not for everyone mate and is very time consuming, which some people just don't have Quote so many excellent readymades about, competitive market all push each other, fully trust a few bigger names the old ready made debate is being covered in a another thread here, interesting topic for debate like i posted in there some ready mades are shocking and if I owned a water I wouldn't want some of those baits putting anywhere near my expensive investment in fish, even Gary Bayes says there is a slight nutrional hit with making readymades as you have to reduce the contents of the volatile ingredients (which are generally the ones you want more of) to achieve the a good shelf life, also what is shelf life couple of months to never go off. You are right there are a couple of people trying to do it right but that's just the preserving side of the argument. There is also an argument over how long if ever these baits take to breakdown, lake are being drained to find kilos and kilos of boilies on the bottom that haven't broken down, Mark Pitchers experienced this when he drained Wainstone down, he'd had a guy heavily baiting with shelf life tuttis when he was clearing the bottom in the areas he had been fishing there was kilo's and kilo's of non broken down tutti's, kilos of rotting bait will end in a water quality issue eventually. You say big names but I have seen a lab analysis of ready made against the frozen version of a well known companies bait and they are very different, and this company had done a magazine article to claim this bait had x quantities of an element and the lab test showed half of that in the ready made. Because of the competitive market you are sold the dream via the marketing hype but realities are sometimes different. The main thing is you have found a company that your happy to part with your cash for so all is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I wasn't directing at you personally fella, I was more generalising about the state of the bait market in general 👍 Quote I do trust Sticky when they say their preservative is ''natural'' as I believe it's just sugar You might have seen Nick posting about some companies dipping there baits in glycerine which is essentially the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Dez Animaux said: Sorry but that is just untrue Some lakes prefer nutty baits, others fishy, others fruity I don't agree with how you overcomplicate things, I know of VERY experienced anglers who swear by certain flavours over others Nobody would sit it out blanking on their favourite bait rather than borrow a few of what worked on that lake that their mate was hauling on Certain flavours? There are particular essential oils that offer a valuable nutritional profile, one of which is black pepper oil. Other flavours can have high attraction properties; flavours containing N-butyric acid, Iso-eugenol, natural attractors in their own right, and often the base compound of particular flavours, but not every part of a flavour is attractive. If you have ever used any flavour, the chances are you have used a bait with a preservative in, the base solvent itself, could be propylene glycol, or anti-freeze, it might be glycerol. It could be a potassium salt, or it could be standard sugar. Even the base solvent could, in the case of glycerol, be the attraction, but to mix that with eugenol, vanillin and n-butyric you have banana flavour. Change the ratios of those three compounds and you could be using guava! Baits work in combination as well. If you fish boilie over pellet, or boilie over particle, then it is not necessarily the boilie that is the attraction, it could be the background feed creating some pre-occupation, the boilie hookbait just happens to be picked up. Years ago I read somewhere that carp have limited utilisation of carbohydrates, and the best energy source is fats, working at a higher ratio of conversion to energy than carbs or protein. A number of years ago, I blanked for three days on a food source bait, on a 'runs' water, the high attract pop-ups produced. On day three the food baits started working, no more carp were caught on hi-attract baits, only the food source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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