Leaders and safe rigs.

[adamkitson]

I may be asking about previously discussed topics, and I know the leader safety thing will have been done to death, but I'd like some opinions on my particular thoughts on the subject.

 

So a generally emerging theme is that leaders full stop are a bad idea, with people favouring to use tubing or nothing so that the fish isn't trailing a leader in the event of a break. So this has to be assuming that it's the main line that breaks. Now as the main line could break anywhere, does it make a difference if the fish is trailing a meter of leader, followed by several meters of main line, or just several meters of main line? My personal thoughts would be that the leader would be less likely to teather up to a snag or similar due to rigidity and thickness, where as main line, as we all know, knots up if the wind blows the wrong way. Now I suppose that ifteathered up, the fish would have a better chance of snapping main line rather than a leader, but wouldn't the hook pull in most situations before the main line goes when under water and teathered?

 

Would it not be a better "rule" to ensure, of course, that the lead can free itself easily, and that the rig material is weaker that the main line? If a main line is say 20lb and the rig material 12lb then isn't there a good chance that the fish will only be left with a hook to deal with? If the main line snapped due to a weakness or cut off on something under water if the fish did get teathered and managed to snap the line it would snap the rig, again with only a hook to deal with. IF this holds true, surely a leader set up with 20lb main line and 12lb rig material would be considerably safer than a naked rig or a tubed rig with 12lb main and a higher breaking strain rig material, like some of the 25lb flouros, braids and filaments that are out there.

 

I know there are other considerations, like hooking potential, bite indication, and safety of a leader rubbing a fish during playing, and for these reasons everything from running rigs, semi-fixed bolts, lead clips and helis have their uses, but I'm really just thinking from a teathering aspect after a break, as the other things can be dealt with, leader or not.

 

One last thing. Isn't the current trend in using plastic baits more of a serious risk to carp? If a carp gets hooked, snaps off, and gets rid of the hook, isn't it leaving a baited hook, maybe whole rig in the lake with a bait that will always be there for the next fish to pick up? At least with food baits they will break down after a certain time, or soften to the point that they'll come off anyway.

[garysj01]

Adam carp fishing isn't perfect, as anglers we all have a responsibility to ensure our presentations are as safe as we can possibly get them. First thing i will say, i used to think that using a lighter hooklink material was safer then a heavier one, but the fact is, in order for that to work you would have to use a hooklink 6lb or below. I did an experiment a while back to see how much pressure i could put into a hooklink, using my rod and a pair of scales. Now my rods are 3 1/4 tc, i simply tied a loop at the end of my mainline and asked a friend to hold the scales while i pulled as hard as i could using my rod. I couldn't exert over five pounds of pressure, no matter how hard i pulled. I think its far better, (if you are going to use a leader), that you should make sure all of the components you are using for your rig all pass over the knots used to attach the mainline to the leader with relative ease. As nine times out of ten the line will always snap at the knot in your mainline. This way if your rig was to snap the fish has a good chance of getting rid of the whole lot and just being left with the hooklink.

[adamkitson]

Thanks Gary. That's really interesting about how much pressure we can exert using our rods! Good experiment! I try and tend not to rely on lead clips too much, in that I want the fish to be able to get rid of the lead AND the clip should the lead not discharge. I generally try and fish in a way that the lead will discharge from the clip if snagged up, or if the fish pulls through weed, but can also slide up the line and over the knots as well. I'm also led to believe that the fish can use the lead to get rid of the rig when shaking its head, and that a running rig is hard for the fish to deal with for this reason. Some resistance from the lead in the event of a break would surely make it easier for the fish to ditch the while lot. And if not, the lead can eject from the rig under minimal pressure, and if not the whole clip can eject from the rig under moderate pressure. Pretty much fishing the clip like an inline semi fixed lead. Seems pretty safe to me.

[garysj01]

All i will say i am doing some more experiments at the moment, on some rigs the lead coming off actually doesn't help the fish get rid of the leader at all, there's pro's and con's to every rig. I won't comment yet as i haven't completed the experiments yet.

[adamkitson]

All i will say i am doing some more experiments at the moment, on some rigs the lead coming off actually doesn't help the fish get rid of the leader at all, there's pro's and con's to every rig. I won't comment yet as i haven't completed the experiments yet.

 

Yea that's kind of what I was getting at. If the fish uses the lead to flick the rig out isn't dumping the lead making it harder for the fish to deal with? Of course if the lead is snarled up in a load of weed then it's got to go! That's why I try and set up with a balance between the lead ejecting when needed, but staying on unless snagged up so the fish can flick it if snapped off and get rid of the rig. Lead clips eject on pressure from the hook end after all. Leads dropping off a clip on the take are on head flicks or the weight of the lead, not the strike. I want a lead to drop on pressure through a snag, I think if I wanted the lead to drop on the take I'd use an inline and guarantee it. No 100% certainty with a clip, any clip. In my mind the whole clip has to be dumpable under decent pressure from the hook end.

 

Begs the question, how much of a balance do we look for in terms of fishability of a set up in terms of getting the fish on and in, and how much to we plan for the rig being left out there. Personally I've only ever had it once that a rig was left out, but then I've not really fished weedy or snaggy waters so far. My syndicate this year can be weedy in places, making me think more about this.

 

I'd be very interested to know what your experiments show.

[garysj01]

Just an extension on this topic, sorry im hijacking a little but i didn't want to start a new thread. I would just like to address the issue with dumping the lead again. Take a look at the inline drop off system, once the lead is dumped the fish is still trailing round a length of leader as well as the lead clip systems, now if you have used a barbed hook on these presentations the fish is going to struggle off loading what ever the hook is attached to. I have also looked into helicopter systems that are also designed to dump the lead, and these also have the same problem. I have always thought it better to use a helicopter or chod system that is designed to come apart from the lead upwards.

 

 

 

As you can see in the pictures above, both the helicopter rig and the chod rig there is a korda small size sinker with an esp bead pushed very lightly onto the bead. The esp bead has one slightly bigger hole in one side than the other, this is what is pushed over the sinker, so if the rig has snapped and is laying on the lake bed and a carp does pick this rig up, you have to rely on the weight of the lead or even the lead getting snagged for the hooklink to be pulled hard enough to move the bead off the sinker and up the leader, hopefully leaving the fish with just the hooklink in its mouth. Now i have seen these same rigs tied in such a way that the lead is meant to come off, ie the leader usually has a ring tied to the end, and the lead is tied on with a very weak piece of mono. But the fish is still trailing round a length of leader, that at best may come off or it may not. So which is best, the one where the lead hopefully does the job for you or the rig that just merely dumps the lead still leaving the fish trailing a leader. Im not picking on leaders at all, all i aim to show is that no rig is 100% safe even the rigs that are tied naked. 9 times out of 10 mono will usually snap at the knot, but there are times when you will get a kink or a weak point further up the line. I have seen fish trailing massive lengths of mono so mainline isn't 100% either, even tubing when using a semi fixed lead, your hoping that the line again breaks at the swivel, but what if it doesn't, and the fish is left with a lead and a length of tubing. No rig is 100% safe all if we are all honest have the potential to tether fish.

[adamkitson]

Couldn't agree more! Really the safest rig to use would be a helicopter or chod type rig, set up correctly of course, as with this rig the fish can only ever be left with the hook link. You'd have to really muck it up these days to leave a fish with anything else. I guess the idea that the lead helps the hook catch and set stops this being as popular as clips or inlines. I have to agree on this one. I'll use a chod rig, if required, but I have to say the whole mechanics of what happens to the rig on a take, and how that registers on the bank doesn't sit well with me. Especially on a slack line. I can guarantee that if it were set up in a field you could pick up the bait and run the hook back to the rod tip without a bleep on the alarm and without moving the lead more than a few inches. But they do work, I guess because very rarely, purely by chance, will a fish run straight along the line. It's just a lot of winding down when you get a take to be sure you're making contact rather than just pulling the line through the ring swivel on a take. And with nothing else to set the hook, decent contact as soon as the rod's in the air would be a very good idea!

 

Interesting you bring up barbed / barbless hooks. why go to all the effort of making a nice safe rig, where the led dumps, and the fish isnt left with a leader then go and stick a hook on the end that the fish cant get rid of. Barbless should, in my opinion, be the only type of hook available, unless you are game fishing for the pot! Not wanting to get into a whole other debate, but I genuinely feel that anyone who thinks they will lose fish purely from a barbed or barbless hook point of view should get down to a runs water and practice playing fish! Most likely barbed hooks are used as a confidence thing if you ask me. (Cue onslaught)

 

Now with helicopter or chod rigs people will most likely want to use a leader. A well set up helicopter rig on a lead core leader is, in my opinion, one of the safest ways to fish. If lead core damages fish while playing them then so will normal mono. It is thiner, so surely will cut into fish easier and get under scales much easier than a lead core leader. Braided thin diameter main line, now that's a whole nother issue that I do not have experience of. But with lead core often banned its hard to get around that one.

 

I also agree that no rig is 100% safe. We are after all catching the fish with a hook, and bringing them to the bank on a line, and of course we do all have the potential to tether a fish. At least most people these days care enough to try and minimise the risks.

[garysj01]

Ill address the leadcore issue for you, the inner lead strip can kink, thus, stop any bead that may otherwise come off, most leadcore are very abrasive by nature and i have seen reports and pictures of fish that have been damaged with some leadcore. The thing is the damage doesn't often appear until the next day or two. Also the inner lead strip can pierce the outer skin again stopping any beads that would normally come straight off. You would be better either using the solar contour or the avid pindown. Both of these are softer than leadcore, and believe it or not these leaders are very supple and hug the bottom a lot better than leadcore.

 

As for the barbed or barbless debate, many believe that barbless hooks cause more damage, as during the fight of a fish the hook can come out and set back in causing multiple wounds in the mouth where as a barbed hook goes in and stays in. My only thought on the issue is i think all newcomers to the sport should use barbless hooks until they are comfortable with taking out hooks without damaging fish.

[salokcinnodrog]

Here's a point for you, if you do snap off with a leader, as Gary has pointed out the usual breaking place is the mainline to leader knot, then the lead must be able to come off. A lead clip may or may not work, especially as the tail rubber has been pushed on so you don't eject the lead on casting.

Switch to a large run ring, effectively a running lead, but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead; with that run ring the ring can slide off and over the broken point, even if the line has coiled itself into a bundle of loops.

 

If there is no weight on the leader and hook link, then the hook can be ejected as per Levigsp's post on another thread the other day, with the callous/blister effect.

[adamkitson]

Thanks Gary. I think I will be picking up some pindown on my next trip to a tackle shop. Looks good to me. I generally stay away from lead core simply because it's so universally frowned upon that there must be issues with it. I've never really understood them until you've pointed them out. On the bank and in your hands it seems good, beads slide over it well etc, but I hadn't thought about it kinking in the water etc. I can see how it would be abrasive too!

 

I'll have a go with the pindown as an alternative to what I'm using at the moment, (as we speak actually, first night on my new syndicate! ) which is the infamous spectacled gentleman's range of safe zone leaders. Just I like them in principle, and I've fished them with clips, semi fixed inlines, and running rigs successfully, but don't like the cost, and the material just isn't that supple. Getting them straight is an ache too.

[adamkitson]

Switch to a large run ring, effectively a running lead, but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead; with that run ring the ring can slide off and over the broken point, even if the line has coiled itself into a bundle of loops.

 

This is my exact question, do you not then leave the fish with the line in a bundle of loops to drag around?

 

If a clip is properly fished, and lord knows there are many that don't, but we can't blame the product if it's used wrongly, then if the lead gets caught up and the fish pulls away from it then the lead will be dumped. Job done, but clips, leads, run rings... lead ejecting aside, in what way does the leader make the situation worse? The obvious is that if the line breaks more often than not at the knot, then if the last knot is the hook side of the lead the fish will be left with nothing but the rig. Is this the only reason?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing any of this this to defend one standpoint or another, I'm genuinely asking more experienced people than myself's advice and opinions.

[garysj01]

In my opinion 2 feet of leader is no more dangerous than 2 feet of mainline trailing behind a fish. But when you are using a leader and you get a break you are guaranteed that the fish is trailing round 2 feet of leader, the mainline will 9 times out of 10 break at the knot, so it stands to reason that when using mono straight through it will snap at the swivel, so the fish should just be trailing the hooklink.

[adamkitson]

but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead;

 

 

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down.

 

Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here!

[garysj01]

but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead;

 

 

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down.

 

Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here!

 

Right use the lightest back lead you can, when pulling into a fish you are actually pulling against the back lead first, a lot of the back leads on the market are to heavy, i use 10 gram back leads and i also know someone who uses 6 gram backleads, if your not careful with backleads it could cost you fish. Plus if your lake is weedy don't bother at all.

[adamkitson]

but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead;

 

 

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down.

 

Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here!

 

Right use the lightest back lead you can, when pulling into a fish you are actually pulling against the back lead first, a lot of the back leads on the market are to heavy, i use 10 gram back leads and i also know someone who uses 6 gram backleads, if your not careful with backleads it could cost you fish. Plus if your lake is weedy don't bother at all.

 

Surely the lighter the back lead the slacker the line needs to be? Or it'll lift up.

 

Yea I get that it means more line to be wound before getting contact with the fish. On a solid run I've had success with picking the rod up and clicking the bait runner off. Wait till the fish picks up the slack and then lift into it. More chance to ditch the hook I suppose, wouldn't do it on anything other than a one-toner. By the way, I'm normally not fishing far out with back leads. Margin rods back leaded under the tip, mid water rods flying back lead (and sinking leader ) and long range (although its rare for me) tight lines and no back leads.

 

Edited to include that of course, no back leads in weedy waters.

[garysj01]

You would be amazed how small a weight you need to sink the line, when its semi slack

[adamkitson]

You would be amazed how small a weight you need to sink the line, when its semi slack

 

Yep. Blob of putty. I was asking about salokcinnodrog's comment about a running lead giving the effect of a semi-fixed lead when fishing tight lines. Would this work if you're back leaded too or would the line need to be tighter?

[salokcinnodrog]

but by having the line tight, you make a bolt or semi-fixed lead;

 

 

Would the line tight but through a back lead be enough to give this effect? The swim I'm in right now is quite tight, and really playing a fish in would be a nightmare unless the lines were on the bottom from a few yards past the tip. I usually fish semi-slack through a back lead to make sure it's all down.

 

Sorry to fire a bunch of quotes and questions at you. Thinking many things at once here!

 

I don't like back leads at all, they give the fish more time to get rid of the bait without any indication at the rod end, create another angle in your line from end tackle to back lead then lakebed to rod tip, another 90degree (ish) angle and the fish can move a long way before you get any indication as well.

 

 

 

You could make life a whole lot easier, dependant on how tight the swim, by having the rod tips under water at the extreme margin. Don't fish with your rods over the water, but have the tips down in the water.

 

Also even though I suggested a bolt set-up, I have still managed to fish with a running lead at distance, over 100metres, but if you can't then you want the lines as tight as possible. So tight, you're even trying to 'stretch' the line. You want your heavy indicator at the top, line dead tight. If you have any slack, then the fish can move away without indication, and if you aren't tight with the heavy indicator, then you won't get any indication of a drop back.

[adamkitson]

 

I don't like back leads at all, they give the fish more time to get rid of the bait without any indication at the rod end, create another angle in your line from end tackle to back lead then lakebed to rod tip, another 90degree (ish) angle and the fish can move a long way before you get any indication as well.

 

 

 

You could make life a whole lot easier, dependant on how tight the swim, by having the rod tips under water at the extreme margin. Don't fish with your rods over the water, but have the tips down in the water.

 

Also even though I suggested a bolt set-up, I have still managed to fish with a running lead at distance, over 100metres, but if you can't then you want the lines as tight as possible. So tight, you're even trying to 'stretch' the line. You want your heavy indicator at the top, line dead tight. If you have any slack, then the fish can move away without indication, and if you aren't tight with the heavy indicator, then you won't get any indication of a drop back.

 

But surely all of those issues apply when fishing slack lines at any range, and yet the world and his dog say it's the only way to fish! (Ok not everyone, but a lot these days.)

 

With slack lines you get no drop back indication, and the fish has to move a substantial quantity of line before you get an indication in any direction. A fish on a slack line could run sideways or towards you with no indication at all as the bobbin is flat down. I thought I was hitting a happy medium by fishing semi-slack, and keeping the line in the deck with a back lead. The back lead also means you can have the bobbins a bit off the ground to register a drop back, and a limited amount of line out so it's flat on the bottom. I normally don't fish back leads under the tips, usually I slide it out and drop it at the deepest point between me and the hook bait.

 

I'm confused. I need a beer. I guess all ways have their good and bad points. Solve one problem you create another, solve that one and another occurs, and so on.

[garysj01]

Every time i watch the slack line demonstrated on tv i can't help but wonder, is it the line sinking that is raising the indicator or under tow.

[salokcinnodrog]

 

I don't like back leads at all, they give the fish more time to get rid of the bait without any indication at the rod end, create another angle in your line from end tackle to back lead then lakebed to rod tip, another 90degree (ish) angle and the fish can move a long way before you get any indication as well.

 

 

 

You could make life a whole lot easier, dependant on how tight the swim, by having the rod tips under water at the extreme margin. Don't fish with your rods over the water, but have the tips down in the water.

 

Also even though I suggested a bolt set-up, I have still managed to fish with a running lead at distance, over 100metres, but if you can't then you want the lines as tight as possible. So tight, you're even trying to 'stretch' the line. You want your heavy indicator at the top, line dead tight. If you have any slack, then the fish can move away without indication, and if you aren't tight with the heavy indicator, then you won't get any indication of a drop back.

 

But surely all of those issues apply when fishing slack lines at any range, and yet the world and his dog say it's the only way to fish! (Ok not everyone, but a lot these days.)

 

With slack lines you get no drop back indication, and the fish has to move a substantial quantity of line before you get an indication in any direction. A fish on a slack line could run sideways or towards you with no indication at all as the bobbin is flat down. I thought I was hitting a happy medium by fishing semi-slack, and keeping the line in the deck with a back lead. The back lead also means you can have the bobbins a bit off the ground to register a drop back, and a limited amount of line out so it's flat on the bottom. I normally don't fish back leads under the tips, usually I slide it out and drop it at the deepest point between me and the hook bait.

 

I'm confused. I need a beer. I guess all ways have their good and bad points. Solve one problem you create another, solve that one and another occurs, and so on.

 

I honestly think that with a slack line and running leads indication is increased. Think of a cable running through a conduit, you can pull it easily from end to end, but try to pull it sideways and you have a resistance, now underwater a slack line acts in the same way.

 

 

Gary has pointed out the flaw with a slack line and running lead, the presence of undertow, so you want a sinking line that you can get down to the lakebed, either a good sinking mono or a fluorocarbon line.

 

It can take a while to get the line totally slack and down to the lakebed. Cast out and tighten down to the lead with the rod tip under the water. Then as you put the rod on the rests, pull line off the reel, so much that line is drooping between the eyes, and put the indicator on at maximum drop, it's lowest point. You may find that the line tightens and pulls the indicator up, each time it does, pull more line off the reel.

It can take as much as 20minutes to get it all down.

 

There are times when fishing a slack line is not possible, as I said, no back leads, that same running lead set-up and I fish with the line extremely tight from rod to lead, you get indication from runs or drop backs