Gazlaaar

Yeah I see your point, this was really just an exercise to see what happens to the bait itself, maybe ill do a bit more looking before I think about fishing with it

In hindsight, the baits are a little soft and maybe the inclusion of some Albumin may harden up the outer skin some what, after all it does work nicely on cork ball pop ups that are steamed for the same amount of time. I have left a pinch of paste and a couple of baits out on a plate to see what happens and the rest are in the freezer.

I don't wish to be the centre of any conflict, im happy enough in my pursuits to except other views, its fine I did a little experiment earlier to activate the yeast with a little warm water and granulated sugar Plus I have made a batch and steamed at 90 seconds rather than my usual 3 minutes, the outer is as normally cooked but the inner is still paste. In an attempt to not totally deactivate the yeast. Plus I have made some paste, maybe I am barking up the wrong tree but without experiments I have no idea

Can I ask why your poo pooing a general interest in bait science. I have a general interest into what works and why, I general thirst for knowledge, it may be your opinion that its all poppycock but to others there may well be some vital information they are looking for right here. Surely that is what forums are all about, sharing, educating, I take your basic point but there is a more technical side that people find genuinely interesting.

Maybe im barking up the wrong tree, but, there is some evidence to suggest active yeast can be quite good on a couple of levels even if it isn't activated. Pre Digested Fishmeal has a richer enzyme profile from what ive read, but it wouldn't suit my base.

My investigations have lead me into a few different directions, monosodium glutamate, brewers yeast and a few other aspects. Im still looking and find the whole thing fascinating, I seem to be drawn by the brewers yeast path at the moment, all to do with the fermentation process, im sure you know. Just a little unclear if its beneficial before heating or after. I don't boil my baits a I might add, mine are steamed, the process seemingly retains a bit more of the ingredients and nutrients, although don't quote me on that, nothing I do is carried out under laboratory conditions.

The Leadcore acts as a weight in its own right, in fact any leader will act in the same way. SS you bring up a good point with tethered fish, I can't remember seeing one with the lead attached. There will be some no doubt, but the majority of fish will just be trailing around leaders. Another point to make, is I've gone right off plastic baits, and ive seen more and more fisheries adopting their banning. Just one question to Phil, as you are thinking of building your own pool, as you probably have a slightly different prospective of fish care than the rest of us. Knowing what you know about the carp fishing fraternity and its many wonderful inventions, what would you ban on your water?

A lot of people have poo, poo'd the idea of leaving the lead on, its simple physics, you need the weight of the lead to pull the leader off. If I told you what I was fishing over you'd understand the reasoning behind this train of thought. Ive never really fished pop ups a lot, but the rig works really well for me.

Sorry im not sure how to put up pictures

As I was the originator of this thread I thought it only fair to put this here as well. This is just for use for Helicopter/Rotary Rigs, incorporating leaders. Firstly we come to the personal decision of whether its better to dump the lead, leaving the hooklink and leader tethered to the fish, or, using the weight of the lead to pull the leader free of the hooklink, just leaving the fish with the hook link to get rid of. I favour the latter, to my thinking, surely the quicker a fish can get rid of the leader the better. With this in mind I set about trying to create a safe a leader as possible, but this presented its own problems. A lot of the kits available now don't work as effectively as you think. Shrink and Silicone Tube aren't fixed and can both be slid up the leader with the bead connected. Yes we are told to moisten the bead before its slid into place but don't forget the leadcore/leader also soaks up moisture making it more slippery. One of the best kits out there is the Korda kit, because the bead is split, it has a much better chance of slipping off, freeing the hooklink, but the kit can still slip up the leader. Which has lead me to trying to create something that doesn't slip at all, leaving the bead as the only movable point. This is where I came up with this idea, tying a 4 turn barrel knot using the leadcore/leader itself. This can not move, which puts all of the pressure on to the bead. After tying the knot I shrink a piece of heat shrink tube over the top to facilitate the bead coming off. The lead inner has been stripped out of this bottom section of leadcore to the top of the knot. This is the presentation in its entirety All I can say, before you comment, try it, and try the lead theory I have mentioned, try getting rid of the leader without the lead, then try getting rid of the leader with the lead and you'll see how much better it is. To my thinking, the fish being able to get rid of the entire leader has to be better than towing it around. Another point to make, these beads have a taper, with the larger hole facing away from the lead. This helps the bead to slip over the knot connecting the mainline. I have also found, the heavier the lead the better, and instead of using a ring swivel which has been problematic I would suggest using a big eye swivel, with the larger eye pushed over the leader. Plus I have adopted using barbless hooks with this particular presentation, on a just in case basis and my mainline is strong, 18lb to be exact. The main reason for using Leadcore lately is because of its stiffness, Leadcore does not follow all of the contours of the lake bed as once believed, this is due to the Lead Inner, which is specifically why I am using leadcore.Other softer, lead free versions do follow the contours, and my pool is littered with very sharp debris. The leadcore predominantly lies on top of the debris without coming into contact with many of the razor sharp edges where a softer more supple leader would drape over these edges. I would like to make it clear, that leadcore wasn't my first choice, but it is the better of two evils in my situation.It goes without saying that you should check the condition of your leader and mainline before each cast and make sure everything works just how it should. Accidents happen, crack off's, loosing fish during the fight, but to my thinking, I have made this presentation as safe as possible, using the lead to pull the leader free. As you see a lot of thought and testing has gone into this rig and I know it may spark off some debate, but I feel perfectly justified in my decision for using it.

There are some cracking dark big fish in that pool, there is a syndicate ticket available for nights I believe, but you have to live with in the catchment area, from what I can remember. Lots of weed, plus the boats come out every so often so steer clear of the shallows when they are out. Last time I was there which was a couple of years ago, the going area seemed to be in front of the trees on the non fishing bank, its a good cast, and you'll find it hard getting in there as its popular with the members, day tickets used to be just over a fiver, from 730am until 5 or so in the evening. Its not an easy water, so prepare yourself for that but the rewards are there. PVA bags may well be a good choice for days, good luck

You'll have to forgive my ignorance as my exploration in bait has just really begun, its funny you should mention protease as its exactly the subject I was researching last night, I shall share what I have found here People have thought of many unique and advanced methods to get their fishing hook delivery 'fool-proof;' from using semi-permeable membranes filled with amino acids, to 'sponge hooks' full of irresistible goodies! The next best thing is to deliver a bait which is 'alive' with amino acids, because it is being actively digested by various means! There are various enzymes that act upon the different food groups, some which may be sourced, to use in your bait to predigest its food group ingredients, making your bait a far more energy-efficient nutrition source, so making it as attractive as possible:Proteins (proteases): trypsin pH (3.5 to 6), bromelain pH 3 to 10, papain, acetyltyrosine, actinidine, fincinCarbohydrates and starch (amylases): amylase, bromelain, diastaseFats and oils (lipase) Milk constituents: lactaseWhite sugar (sucrase): iron sucroseMalt sugars and grains (maltase, diastase)Dietary fiber / Cellulose: (cellulase)The crystalline forms of trypsin, amylase and can be used for example. Fishing bait companies offer it. They are the enzymes the carp use themselves in digestion. For natural enzymic application, for example, amylolytic yeast strain enzymes have shown similar optimum temperature and pH ranges in tests on wheat, as amylases from bacteria.Betaine is 'closely related to' cystine, and is a proven attractor. Used in bait, it has been claimed to work best with the combined use of plenty of amino acids. It is recommended at 1 to 2 grams per pound, although it is more effective at far higher doses...It is also used in aquaculture feeds and been used by 'select' anglers for years as in 'Finnstim' in milk protein baits. The crystal form of bromelain (from pineapple) is supplied by health food companies as a 'tonic,' and taken at up to 1000 mgs a day as a human digestion aid. It efficiently 'hydrolyses' most soluble proteins at pH 3 to 10, at a wide range of temperatures for liquid and many amazing carp attracting substances.Casein, hemoglobin, gelatin, soya protein, fish and shellfish proteins, etc. These are converted to peptides and amino acids. It has (very conveniently for us) a wide range of effective acid-base levels (pH), and temperatures.Mixed with base mix ingredients, they gradually reduce the structure to a mush, if levels are too high; a teaspoon per pound is sufficient to begin the effect. Once boilies and other baits have been prepared and left to cool and dry after boiling, freeze immediately, to prevent baits predigesting too quickly in advance of fishing. Enzyme-treated baits lose much of their unique attractiveness if the enzyme activity is reduced or stopped for any reason, before 'backside' use. In the 1980s, I once met the world carp record holder (at that time), Kevin Ellis, while he was fishing. He was throwing his free baits out before casting out. He explained that the large drum, full to the top with bait (looked like many 'kilos') would all have to go into the water immediately - before it all 'melted;' because it was so extremely enzyme-active! (But obviously very highly effective!)Using enzymes, it's recommended by some to keep hook baits in a pre warmed flask, e.g. 60 plus degrees, to keep the enzymes active right up to the point of use. This is all worthwhile. Results on such baits can be truly amazing when sufficient bait has been applied to a water, extracting the very biggest fish, even, at times, in days rather than weeks! I'd always keep my hook baits warm, even if only to allow more bacteria to act and begin 'bioactive fermentation' on the bait, making them feel 'sticky' and smell slightly 'sickly', as sugars and alcohols are produced. You can use a pre warmed flask to keep your hook baits actively curing, even if you're not using enzymes in your bait. Getting your baits to begin to ferment is one of the best ways to deliberately maximize your 'finished' boilies' attraction. 'Bioactivity' by natural bacterial enzymes can be used on any 'chemically unpreserved' fresh or frozen bait.This is one of the 'secret' methods those anglers 'in the know' have always used as an edge. Even use it on any frozen fresh shop-bought baits. Defrost them an average 2 to 3 days before use, and keep them warm until use! (Bring them more 'alive' by encouraging bacterial 'bioactivity!')It is obvious that bacteria play a vital role in the way carp source and are able to synthesis food because the digestive tract is so short and inefficient compared to our own. The carp digestive tract has evolved in a way that reflects the aquatic food sources available. It seems to extract maximum nutritional benefits in ways that are very different from our own digestion! What a carp eats and how it prefers it in a particular state of breakdown may seem amazing and even disgusting to us! Did you know that 10 out of 10 dogs prefer their food sweetened! Specialist bacteria are put into dog food to create more of this effect to trigger the dogs into 'salivating' and consequently picking up their food and eating it. Dog food companies spend £1000's in research to develop the best of this effect in their products!The action of these enzymes has much in common with what we are aiming to achieve, in baits for carp!Modern 'Balanced profile' carp boilie baits mean 'optimally attractive', correct ratios of proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and supplemental vitamins, minerals, salt, and trace elements. These are not at all necessary to catch carp, but they certainly have many many benefits on catches and carp general health and growth rates!Remember, the carp has a very short, alkaline digestive tract! Ideally, this food needs to be in a form that is actively breaking down, for the carp to derive best benefits from it, or, in an easily digestible form, like that in bloodworms, fly larvae, shrimps or water snails, etc. One thing in favour of paste or dough baits and even pellets of different types, is they do not suffer the harmful effects of boiling.Sometimes, this point is reached in 'free baits', days after you've gone home, as bacteria act on them in the water. It is more than likely that this is the easiest form for the carp to digest! The absolute 'cutting edge' of carp bait production, may be in keeping enzymes stable in baits after boiling, and may even involve using natural bacterial enzymes in combination with balanced casein / soya bean 'peptone' content, for example. It may be possible that more enzymes are produced as more pre-digested materials are produced inside the 'active' boilie bait, (like pork or milk, or yeast, or liver extracts,) as bacteria levels are improved and become more abundant? One important area is the science of retaining enzyme stability in heat and changing pH conditions in the bait. PH 'buffers' are involved to protect enzyme potential and activity.In experiments involving 'thermos table alkaline enzyme and industrial bacteria', the best naturally produced, protein digesting enzyme (protease) levels, occurred using: (Peptone 1V), 'Soy tone', Corn steep liquor, Casein, Gelatin and beef extract. Enzyme production using the industrial 'peptone 1V' was dependant upon its concentration: too much, and there was an excessive nitrogen build-up, as in amino acids and ammonia, which then reduced the protease production. (The peptone was the nitrogen and carbon source). 'Soy tone' produced the second-best enzyme production, and the third was corn steep liquor.I would surmise from this, that not only can corn steep liquor be effective in translating whole food proteins into digestible forms by bacterial enzyme or other means, but also it may stimulate the production of free L-glutamic acid, within the bait ingredients producing a self digesting, self taste-enhancing bait! Top catches are mostly achieved by those people who 'push barriers a little,' who think and do things a little differently to the majority. So go on; why not be a little bit different; the fantastic rewards are just waiting for you!The author has many more fishing and bait 'edges' up his sleeve. Every single one can have a huge impact on catches. By Tim Richardson

Oh, I'm sorry, sir. I'm anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulation Sorry, I just had too, one of my favourite lines

Thank you for your reply Turnip, its funny you mention, Glutaminic, (monosodium Glutamate) as I was talking to a good friend of mine discussing the 5th taste bud (umami) the other day.It hasn't long been officially recognised as a taste bud,so I believe, hmmmm

I still remain convinced that a good nutritional bait will out score any other bait, long term. Yes if you put any bait in front of a hungry carp it will get taken, but when your fishing blind, and lets be honest we all fish blind to a certain degree, you are relying on a good quality bait to catch you fish. It also comes down to how you fish as well, if your fishing a lot of waters a good shelf bought bait will pay dividends. However if your concentrating on one particular water for a length of time your better off using a good nutritional profiled bait to keep the fish eating again and again. You can by some very nutritious, good baits now, but most of them have high attractor levels which can with time be associated with danger. Which is where making your own comes into its own, you can make any shape, any buoyancy, you can even change something as simple as the flavour label, should your catch rates start to slow up, hence the interest in amino's and other attractors. I am relatively new to making my own and I have a very big thirst to know more, all in a step of maybe giving my baits that extra 1%.

I just have a genuine interest in bait, im one of those people who likes to understand what works and why

I have a big interest in baits, making my own, and I genuinely think this is the only area that carp fishing can progress.

It was Mark Bryant from Baitworks I honestly can't see any benefits to the elongated D, I presume its to let the pop up slide back when its blown out, as the bait is a pop up it'll never make full use of the D as the only direction the pop up wants to go is upwards. I think the original chod or hinged stiff rig have been developed to their full potential and this rig offers no more benefits to those but saying all that, rigs are a very personal thing and if it works for him then why not

Turnip I hope you don't mind me asking but, amino's, pH levels and enzymes all have a very close relationship, wouldn't an effective amino depend on the pH level in the water your fishing, and seeing as pH levels fluctuate, I would assume this would make deciding which amino's are best very hard indeed. Or would using a number of amino's cater for most pH fluctuations.

Use the flat side of a 50 pence piece, put the coated braid on a hard surface, place the edge of a 50 pence piece on top of the material and pull.

The Boa Rig, isn't one of those rigs that you want to use as a starting point. Its better utilised once you know how the fish are reacting to your rigs. Its loosely based around the Hermit and Silicone rig. If you are going to try it, use the weakest elastic possible.

I must say having the jump down the throat attitude isn't going to do you any favours, As for you rig question, a simple size 11 ring swivel with the bait pulled over half of the swivel gives total separation between hook and bait and is best used with a balanced bait to negate the weight of the swivel.

I have to say im a big coleman fan myself

I read a piece by Terry Dempsey who purposefully wants his rig to land in a heap. Food for thought