onefishmike

Rightihooooo! I have been in touch with a veterinary supplier in UK and have all the info. This is copyright so I have requested permission to post the text here, which was specially written for leisure fisheries, and cite the name of the professor who wrote it. Good news: 200 litres of Vircol solution costs only £10, 100 litres only half that price. WATCH THIS SPACE

Has anyone ever had a problem with getting a big cat in the net? I find it quite difficult once they get to over 60 lbs. When I fished the Ebro we had a special sling made of reinforced PVC and with two aluminium poles around 10 ft long. We slid the fish into it and closed the poles together, then it was easy enough for 2 guys to lift a heavy fish out. However you can't really carry gear like this around when you are fishing for carp. The best way of course is unhook the fish in the water and release it without weighing or to get right into the water with the fish but you can't always do that e.g. when you are on your own, when it's cold, in the dark etc. The problem with trying to net them is that they are just too long and tend to slide out backwards, which is not doing the fish a lot of good because it tends to remove the slime. I find the best way is to slide it across one unhooking mat, placed partly in the water, onto another. The fish can be grasped by the bottom jaw with a gloved hand after carefully locating the position of the hook.

Yes, I have seen that one but £15.00 might not be cost effective for fishery owners who have to provide multiple tanks, plus there is all the hassle of servicing them every week. They might just as well do as Les Kaolins do right now i.e. supply the gear and prohibit anglers from using their own stuff. Virkol is produced by Dupont and it contains their Oxone + other chemicals. I use Dupont Oxone + Sodium Bromine to shock (sanitize) swimming pools and it does not even cost £15 for 50,000 litres. One problem could be that the water has to be correctly balanced but that is simple enough and all pool owners have to deal with it. Another is that they may not be able to chuck it on the grass after use. Then the concentration has to be correct. What I do know is that this sanitizer kills, ALL bacteria, viruses, fungi and algae in seconds but, within 30 minutes, the water is safe for people to swim. Possible problems could be - a) They may need two tanks. The first with a detergent to remove the dirt because otherwise a lot of the sanitizing power would be lost. b) It might not penetrate porous surfaces such as landing-net fabric. Lets see what Dupont say, they put me on the right track before. Hi Mike , from what i can see the stuff is around £10 /kg lets say a 100l tank @ 2% solution = 2kg of it so around £20 below is where i got my info from . The problems i can see with dip tanks are will everyone use them and does the chemical affect the fish if the nets are not rinsed properly , Supply nets and slings and matts , that has to be the way to go . It is sold as tablets or powder which dissolve readily in water. It is intended to be mixed with water to form a 1% to 3% solution (by weight, i.e. 10g to 30g per litre). The pink colour is useful in that it helps gauge the concentration when preparing the Virkon, and importantly, as the Virkon ages it discolours, making it obvious when it needs to be replaced. The solution is generally stable for five to seven days. In the swimming pool game some suppliers are wrapping up some fairly cheap chemicals and selling them at extortionate prices, which is OK for Joe Public because he does not use a lot, but on a professional scale it pays to buy in bulk. To treat a swimming pool it costs around £12 per year for the Sodium Bromine and £8 every time you shock - that's buying the stuff in 25 Kg bags. However, swimming pool water is not drained off every time but, if it was we are talking about £20 for 50,000 litres for a 10 ppm shock. On a pro rata basis this works out at £0.04. OK, 10 ppm might not be enough, a 100 litre tank could be too small, we might not be able to tip it on the grass, it might not even work, a certain amount of skill in measuring is required etc. etc. Dupont will tell us - they want to sell the stuff! Most certainly there is no need to dry off, just wait 30 minutes before contact with fish. The oxygen from the Oxone "gasses off" into the air. The residual chemical trace in Bromine Ion - sea water has between 50 and 80 ppm. WIKIPEDIA: Virkon is a multi-purpose disinfectant. It contains oxone (potassium peroxymonosulfate), sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate, sulfamic acid; and inorganic buffers. I am not thinking that I am right about this. There must be a drawback, otherwise someone would have got onto it before me. Lets wait for the answer from Dupont.

I agree with you about birds and wildlife. Nevertheless, until it is proved that nets etc. do not spread disease, then the issue has to stay on the table. As far as your gear is concerned I have two thoughts - 1. You should be congratulated for taking care and I wonder how many of our comrades do the same, so we still have to either to ban anglers own gear or provide dunking tanks. 2. How can you be sure that simple washing and drying is enough? Perhaps you use Dettol, or similar, but how can you be sure that it works.

Yes, I have seen that one but £15.00 might not be cost effective for fishery owners who have to provide multiple tanks, plus there is all the hassle of servicing them every week. They might just as well do as Les Kaolins do right now i.e. supply the gear and prohibit anglers from using their own stuff. Virkol is produced by Dupont and it contains their Oxone + other chemicals. I use Dupont Oxone + Sodium Bromine to shock (sanitize) swimming pools and it does not even cost £15 for 50,000 litres. One problem could be that the water has to be correctly balanced but that is simple enough and all pool owners have to deal with it. Another is that they may not be able to chuck it on the grass after use. Then the concentration has to be correct. What I do know is that this sanitizer kills, ALL bacteria, viruses, fungi and algae in seconds but, within 30 minutes, the water is safe for people to swim. Possible problems could be - a) They may need two tanks. The first with a detergent to remove the dirt because otherwise a lot of the sanitizing power would be lost. b) It might not penetrate porous surfaces such as landing-net fabric. Lets see what Dupont say, they put me on the right track before.

Well done! I don't know how I missed that, must have been having a senior moment. Anyhow got it now. Made by Dupont and contains their Oxone which I use for swimming pool sanitation. I'll get in touch with Dupont right away. Could be a big moment. We may have saved the UK carp population and the French as well. WATCH THIS SPACE. I have written to Dupont technical support and will publish their response.

Well done! I don't know how I missed that, must have been having a senior moment. Anyhow got it now. Made by Dupont and contains their Oxone which I use for swimming pool sanitation. I'll get in touch with Dupont right away. Could be a big moment. We may have saved the UK carp population and the French as well. WATCH THIS SPACE.

That's quite right. It started out with the simple question: "What's best, disinfection tanks or supplying the gear?" Then others raised the point about KHV and cormorants, which was what made me start looking around. I had hoped that other French fishery owners would come up with some advice.

Rightihooooo! Drying your gear does not help except that it will destroy bacteria. KHV is a virus. Viruses are not strictly alive anyway because they need a host cell to invade, thrive and multiply. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=326147 Logically KHV can survive for along time after the gear has dried completely. So the only solution is proper sanitization but how and with what? What I do know is that halogens e.g. chlorine and bromine kill viruses in seconds. These chemicals are used for sanitizing swimming pools, jacuzzis, hot-tubs etc. and are quite complicated to use because of their short life after activation.

and thats from another lake owner, that aint a bad recommendation Looks good to me!

I wrote to my colleagues at Les Kaolins last night, Title: "Does Terry own a Shotgun" also a link to this post. Thinking some more about that. If Terry does see a cormorant on the lakes hopefully he knows what to do; then recover the body and burn it - in spite of the fact that they are protected! However that may not be a problem because we have never seen a cormorant there. We do get the occasional duck but there are some, quite large, birds of prey; one actually make a investigatory pass at matey John Richard's bait-boat. The real risk could be the herons and we often wake up in the morning to the sight of one on the other side of the lake, standing in the margins. But how can anyone shoot a heron? I know that I couldn't! I think that the real problem is due to the fact that Les K is such a vast area and so remote; very often there are only a couple of anglers on the whole fishery. I've done my brains in Googling for information but there just does not seem to be an answer at the moment. KHV is a virus, just like colds and flu and the only protection from it is the immune system, apart from vaccination - which has not yet been developed. Us humans have cracked it fairly well and those at risk are advised to have a jab every year. As well as that a healthy persons's immune system develops antibodies to quickly combat the virus because the body has learned to do this from previous infections; but a carp lake is a closed environment and the fish's immune system never gets the chance until it is too late. Mankind created the problem in the first place, by stocking the fisheries with non-indigenous species. So now mankind has to provide the answer. Whilst writing there is something else that I have noticed. When I visit my "home town" and look around the lakes and gravel-pits of London, I see a whole variety of water-fowl in huge numbers and the same situation probably exists all over the UK. They all seem quite tame and accustomed to the presence of humans. Meanwhile, travelling around rural France and Spain I see very little "bird-life" - at least the variety with feathers! Perhaps an answer: UK angling groups should provide culinary courses for our eastern european fiends who fish for the table. Perhaps "Heron au Vin" or "Cormorant a la Orange"! This is getting right off the topic - sorry! I started the post looking for opinions regarding dunking tanks vs supplying fish-handling gear; also the sanitizer to use in the tanks. Any further thoughts, please?

I think that we can dismiss this as being fairly obvious. Part of my job is to maintain a number of swimming pools and I can say for sure that water is a far better medium than air for transmitting bacteria, virus and fungi. If the water is not correctly balanced and the sanitizer present it only takes one person to infect practically all of the others, especially in warm weather. With large community pools we are dealing with a relatively small number of bugs in millions of litres of water. Having said that, I also think that drying gear is not sufficient either. Eventually someone will say that we have the risk from animals and even birds pooping as they fly over but these are things we can do nothing about. I am really worried about this. Our "babies" are really beautiful fish, chunky, healthy, putting on weight fast, each one different from the other and it would really be a shame to start losing them in a few years after all the TLC, winter feeding, etc.

The other option is for the fishery to provide the nets, slings etc, but even then we have sticky fingers at various venues. Therefore there has to be an effective way to clean your kit between trips, but equally it may not be practial or possible for the angler, so the theory of dip and rinse tanks is a good one, but they should be checked and replenished, and the active ingredients should be safe for the fish. The first problem is what chemical to use, so I would be interested in any other fishery owners who have hands-on experience. Then the "dip and rinse" question. At my old syndicate we just dipped and laid the gear out to dry. Finally: We have 4 lakes at Les Kaolins, which are spring-fed and all connect via tubes and ditches. Do we have to disinfect if an angler moves from one lake to the other? IMPORTANT: My colleagues at Les K did the stocking before I got involved: 300 fish (mirrors, cats and sturgeon), just the main lake which is 16 acres. All the lakes had a resident stock of commons, pike, perch and silver-fish. Just after this stocking a lot of the resident commons died, fortunately only small fish and only in the main lake. Curiously now there are only large commons in the main lake, 30's and up, but still a lot of small ones in the other lakes. I witnessed scores of fish spawning in the Island Lake this year, mostly all in the 5lb - 10lb bracket. So we need to think carefully about the best way forward. We purchased a few sets of gear which we provide against a cash deposit. It's early days for us but the fishery holds up to 20 anglers. We either have to buy more gear or go for the disinfection tanks.

I am involved with a fishery in Brittany, France and we have a rule about nets and unhooking mats. Anglers are not allowed to use their own gear. Obviously that's logical because we have to avoid all risk of infection from other lakes but I am wondering if there is another way. Additionally these days, there is some really good carp-care equipment around and it seems a shame to deny anglers the right to use their own gear when it's better than ours. I once belonged to a syndicate in London that provided dip-tanks for such gear at the entrance, so I am wondering how safe this method it, what disinfectant to use and what concentration. The first thing that comes to mind is Jeyes Fluid but that may only work on bugs that infect humans. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks

Hi Ian I did as you suggested. I PM'ed a couple of moderators but nothing has happened. If you can help, please PM me or send me an e-mail. Feel free to delete this. OneFishMike

Thanks for that hnv. I couldn't agree more. In retrospect I can't believe why I changed from short-shank with bent shrink tube, which worked so well for me for years. Let's see what happens when I get backup there. All the best

Thanks Nick but I am aware of that and fully agree that this is the most crucial point. If I am on my own I always get my net into the water early, as soon as I can commit to which side of the pod I am going to net it. Then, once the fish is completely played out (like you say) and over the mes, it's easy enough. These fish come off before I get them to the net and I don't even see them. I have been using barbless hooks for at least 10 years; I live in Spain and fish the Ebro a lot - where the snags are horrendous in some of the swims. But this is happening in France at Les Kaolins,where there are virtually no snags but a barbless rule. I'm back at Les K in a few weeks and will try switching back to short-shank wide-gape and see how it goes. Mike

Thanks emmcee, very interesting. Just one question: Did you notice any difference to the mouth tissue of the carp in the different lakes? Even though they are the same strain their mouths could be very different due to the bottom make up. I'm sure, that if you could find twin brothers, one who worked in a bank and the other was a bricklayer, they would have very different skin on their hands. Of course there could be a difference to the way your carp picked up the bait - in which case my theory is FUBAR. OneFishMike

Thanks for that Guys, very interesting. Some supporting facts - In my last 5 trips to different French I have had (guessing) around 50 carp, including 2 PB 50's, and not had one single hook pull. When I got the first one I couldn't believe it, almost at the net and I never even saw the fish. The following day the same thing happened - soul destroying! Previously I used No.4 short shank barbless with a bit of shrink tube. I had switched to No.6 long-shank curved barbless with no shrink tube. I was fishing Les Kaolins, where the fish are numerous and inclined to be smaller because it has only just been stocked, 25lb - 30lb but always the chance of a 40lb +. So I'll switch back to the No.4 SS for my next trip and see what happens. Something else that may be relevant. I'm a website designer and promoter and Les Kaolins are my clients. Les K only opened this year, so I am very interested in results and the owners call me frequently. All groups are currently reporting numerous hook-pulls; some anglers are experiencing up to 50%. I'm really wondering if they might have got the rules wrong - barbless or crushed barb (????? - I never heard that one before). Perhaps they should change this to barbless or micro-barb? The Les K complex comprises ancient kaolin pits. This kaolin clay is really weird stuff, very soft, not clingy like normal clay, with lots of shiny gritty particles and alive with bloodworms. I'm thinking that the fish may have very soft mouths and that could be the problem - so what's the solution there? I have to admit that I never thought of this before and never looked; I just check the hook-hold (always perfectly just behind the bottom lip) and my barbless hook slides out easily, so I just didn't look for anything else.

I am either being really stupid for missing the obvious or have hit in something really profound that I have never seen discussed before regarding the relative angle of a hook hold. I have been thinking about it because I have recently had several hook-pulls close to the net. I'll try to explain it but if a sketch is required I am happy to provide. These days we are all trying for a hook hold in the bottom of the mouth close to the lip - right? Now lets consider what happens from start to finish - The pick-up: The fish is pricked, bolts, and the weight of the rig/lead pulls the hook in. At this point the angle of penetration is from BELOW and the line across the bottom lip. Playing, Stage 1: As soon as the rod is picked up this angle of pressure pivots to the SIDE and the line is across the scissors of the mouth. This rotates from SIDE to SIDE as the fish kites from one side to the other. No problem until the fish comes from (say) 20 yards out the the net. Playing Stage 2: I'm thinking that this is were it all gets really iffy because the angle of pressure changes to ABOVE, the hook rotates from side to side and the line slides from scissors to scissors across the top lip. Because the carp's top lip protrudes over the bottom and the hook is jiggling from side to side there could be a tendency to work the hook out. I'm fishing a French lake with a barbless rule and these hook-pulls seem to have coincided with switching from very short shank wide gape to medium length curved shank hooks. An ideas?

I have been fishing with barb-less hooks now for 5 years and have never caused any mouth damage. I probably get more hook pulls than others during the fight but I try to stay in contact with the fish and not apply more pressure than necessary; that must be better for the fish. Also around 25% of the fish don't even need unhooking as the hook comes out in the net. I nearly always use a running lead without a leader and for me the main advantage is that, that if the fish gets weeded or snagged, I give it slack line and it always gets free. I really don't understand what kind of damage a barb-less hook can do, apart from long-shank hooks but that must apply to barbed also. Is it possible that SMALL hooks are the problem? I can imagine, that if constant pressure is not applied then the hook can slip out and cause a tear but that is not likely to happen with a larger hook. I never use anything smaller than a 6 so perhaps that's why I don't cause damage.

Try Les Kaolins in Brittany: They have a 6-berth mobile home on site and there is a 3 bed/2 bath gite at the entrance to the fishery. There are 4 lakes totalling 35 acres with wild carp, roach, pike and perch i.e. something for everyone. Only the main lake has been stocked recently with mirrors to 40lbs+, cats and sturgeon. I was there last week, fished the main lake and had 17 fish, including a 32lb mirror and 3 cats. I was expecting a lot more fish, as this is a runs water, but a sudden cold spell put them off. You'll be OK in July though. Although the carp were slow the lake was alive with roach. A kiddie of about 6 was knocking them out wholesale in the next swim. Apparently one of his roach was grabbed by a pike, his dad took over the rod but it bit through the line. He was so excited that he couldn't wait to tell me about it - the kid, not the dad, LOL!!! Best of luck with it.

I just got back from a two week session, Meadow Lake and Les Kaolins. Weather-wise it was a disaster but I can see that it has improved now with tems in mid 20's. When are you thinking of going? As you are 6 in the group but only two anglers I would recommend Les Kaolins. They have a 6 berth mobile home on site and there is a 3-bed/2 bath gite, with a HEATED swimming pool at the entrance to the fishery. There are 4 lakes with wild carp, roach, pike and perch but only the main lake has been stocked with mirror carp. I had 17 fish during my week there including a low-30 and 3 cats to 65lb. The new stock are really chunky healthy fish and fight like mad, probably because most have not been caught before. Best of luck!

Hi Ian I guess you are our moderator, so thanks for the welcome. What did you mean by "other", surely ALL links are either banned or permitted. I have a special reason for asking. I live in Costa Blanca and also have a "holiday" home on the banks of the Ebro. Last November I was travelling with a mate in France, we discovered Les Kaolins in Brittany and had a good 5 days session there even though the weather was really bad. Les Koalins is owned by an English couple who, as it turned out, have a holiday home in the town where I live - an amazing coincidence! But the remainder of the story is even more amazing. Neither of them are anglers and they don't even have the foggiest idea but they did stock one of the lakes around 3 years ago and have been feeding them ever since. They built shower blocks and converted the Chateau into an anglers kitchen and dining room. Terry is a ex-chef and provided us with some amazing meals delivered to our swims. In all that time the lakes have only been fished 6 times. I want to help them all I can. Perhaps I should get them to join this forum and warn them about linking? All the best and thanks for your help. Mike

My local water is the Ebro and I used to fish for cats a lot. In the "good old days" we used a carp live-bait of 3 to 4 lbs, an eel or a bunch of bleak (a Christmas Tree). Then live baits were banned and we found that a trout or any sea-fish worked well. These days most guys fish with 50 mm halibut pellets, a string of 6 or 8, popped up; sometimes a large squid, a piece of liver or chicken guts. Like JohnHere says "Cats will eat anything". Worth remembering if you float fish with a large live or deadbait, cats attack from below and behind, not like pike who take sideways and turn to swallow head-first. Consequently the hook - best a BIG treble should be dangling from the back. Incidentally, there is never any reason to stick a hook in a live fish, especially if you put the bait out with a boat; in fact this hinders hooking.The best way is to attach them with cotton thread and a sewing needle. OneFishMike