Complicated Rigs.

[salokcinnodrog]

hi, great thread, did anybody take any of it on board with their fishing & if so how did it affect it ?

 

The amount of experiments I did on a Runs water last year between trips on my Big Fish water, strangely enough it was always the simple rigs that worked on the Runs Water. This is a water that is heavily fished by the Match Style Anglers. Simple rigs and baiting situations beat the "Complicated Rigs" hands down.

I actually lost a couple of fish on the more "advanced" presentations where I had been playing around. Running Lead and Paternostered rigs definately produced the most strikable indications.

 

I also found that on very short Stiff type presentations produced more lost fish than anything as well. My feelings are that the Carp were being hooked at the extreme edge of the Lip and as I was playing them the hook worked free. Yet to lengthen the rig and switch to braid produced more fish without loss.

[stevejb]

thanks, would you always go for a long braid hooklink instead of mono ?

[salokcinnodrog]

Not necessarily.

 

I try to use the opposite of what other Anglers are using. Most are using Fluoro's and Mono at the moment so I'm still using Braids and Coated Braids.

I have found that Braid is more supple than Mono and Fluoro's and in my mind because of this harder to eject as it crumples rather than staying stiff. Yet as we progress from mono onto braid and forwards this suppleness can lead to missed runs.

 

It is simply the fact that I'm fishing differently to the majority of other Anglers as to why I stick with Braids. With Braid it is a matter of seconds to change the hooklength and Hairlength. I've also found, probably down to practice, that I can tie Braided Hooklengths in seconds, a lot faster than I can tie a mono/Fluorocarbon link.

[stevejb]

thanks, one more question. do you think that choies of hooklength material ie braid or mono should require different hook patterns ?

[andy_galloway]

I cannot be bothered with all the complicated rigs that are out there to be tied. I only use a simple line aligner tied knotless knot style. this rig has never failed me and can be tied almost blindfolded. what is the actual point in tying these over complicated rigs? does it make you a better angler?

[salokcinnodrog]

Again Not necessarily.

 

My choice of Hook Pattern is dictated mostly by whether I'm using a Pop-up or not.

 

For Pop-ups I prefer to use Long Shank Hooks, yet for Bottom Baits I like short shank hooks like the Standard Carp-r-Us Nailers, Centurions, Owner FLB's and the Like.

If I use a Pop-up I normally switch to the Longshank Nailers and also some Nash Outpoint Hooks I bought Years ago.

Although I do fish Snowman presentations with Short Shanks Hooks.

 

Any hook can have the Shank Length extended by the use of Tubing or Shrink Tube and its easy enough just to set it up with a Line Aligner.

[cookieguy]

I'm with Fraggle on this one.We have a tendancy to over analyze and over complicate,what is in essence,a simple method required to catch fish,be they carp or any other species.

The most simple rigs have and will always catch fish,more so than ANY other more complicated rig.PERIOD.

These wacky rigs come and go in a heartbeat and for good reason,they're mostly crap.

Every rig will have its' day,but probably not as many as a simple one.

Stick a worm directly on a hook and I will,over time,outfish every complicated rig out there.

Just my 5 cents worth.

[salokcinnodrog]

i like to keep things simple as much as possible. the fish have seen every rig you can think of. i did a week session last week, only 2fish came out all week, both falling to my baits and tactics.

 

i experimented with all sorts of rigs and presentations, blow back rigs, the bow rig, the recoil rig, the withy pool rig etc, the 2fish both feel to simple presentations. the first, (a small mirror) fell to a simple knotless knot presentation and 12ml bottom bait, the next fish, (a mid double common) fell to a simple combi rig and pop up one inch from bottom. both baits were fished in total isolation along patrol routes

 

i ask my rig only one thing, to pass the 'palm test' ie, drag a hooklink along your palm, and see houmany times it flips over and digs in. a simple long shank hook with a knotless knot arrangement and a small peice of silicone tubing on the eye of the hook will 'flip and dig' almost every drag, where as without the tubing on the eye, it rarely hooks at all, asking the question, how many times does a carp take the bait and not get hooked? i find shortshanked hooks are less prone to 'flip and dig' as well. whatever test you do to determine the hooking properties of your rig, you need to bait it first, doing the test without a bait on the hair is pointless, as it will react totally different when the bait is on the hair.

 

Sorry

Just reading through this Thread again and double checked the validity of some of the posts, against my thoughts and noticed this.

 

Not being funny but a Combi Rig is not a Simple Rig!

 

It is an advanced presentation designed for use where Braid was needed for Subtlety yet unable to be fished as Total Braid is not Tangle free.

 

Most hooks can be made more effective by lengthening the Shank of the Hook, either with a Stiff Presentation or by adding Tubing of some form.

 

By Stiff Presentation You could stiffen up by other means, not just tubing.

 

Yet ShortShanked wide Gape Hooks seem to be the Best Selling hooks of the moment, so why are we fishing with a presentation that is Naturally inefficient?

 

Going back over my Last Post I just noticed I put that I prefer Short Shanked Hooks, but even these I lengthen with a Line Aligner/tubing.

[morkey]

hi i have also found that using more simple rigs to catch carp works more often than using complicated rigs. i find that wen i use a complicated rig for carp fishing on most lake the bait that i put out to bait up the swim and draw the fish in gets. packed with the little fish from the lake which mean i have to make a change of bait to a bigger size. so altogether i think that most of the time an easier rig for carp will lead to a better success.

[sidnet]

this thread has got to be one of the most fascinating discussions on rigs and carp behaviour that i've ever read. it's given me a lot to think about.

 

at the moment i tend to use short rigs, 4-6 inches, and i tend to get really good hook holds and catch at least as many as anybody else on the lake i am fishing. however i think these short rigs must make the fish a lot more weary around the rig and free offerings. wouldn't it be better to make the fish more confident in feeding and put more emphasis on disguising the rig as opposed to hooking efficiency. i'd rather get three times as many bites and miss half of them (still a catch rate improvement of 50%)

[mattycarphunter]

This is indeed a fascinating thread.

 

I ask you all to think of one question. Here it is -.....

 

How would carp magazines survive, if issue one showed you all the rigs you would need to catch all the carp you would ever want to catch?

 

Let's face it, if you get carp feeding confidently enough, there is no need for an overcomplicated rig - unless the lake conditions (for instance heavy weed or some other hindrance) renders your normal "simple" rig unuseable.

 

Carp magazines love to try and tell us all (and in particular, poor beginners, who's heads must spin at the vast array of rigs and bits and bobs that they are told they "need to catch") that we need the latest wonder rig.

 

Of course we don't!!!

 

We just THINK we do. And its that "I wonder" bit of the human mind that makes us tinker around. Carp fishermen, by and large, are great tinkerers with things!!!

 

Some of the rigs I have seen in print (including in some otherwise good books, for instance the Korda Rig Book has some fascinating stuff in it about the effect your lead has on hooking efficiency and other gems) are just laughable, full stop. I can imagine Mr Carp getting caught on them purely because he's too busy chuckling at the mangled mess of steel and braid that's sitting on his dining table that he falls and impales himself.

 

Read Terry Hearn's book "In pursuit of the largest". I did. I flicked eagerly to the rigs section , expecting to see twenty or so wonder rigs. Nope. Just a handful.

 

End of!

 

Keep it simple, and learn watercraft and baiting strategy, and leave complicated rig construction to people with far too much time on their hands.

 

Matty

[salokcinnodrog]

Hi Matty,

 

Welcome to the Forum Mate

 

Thats what I have been saying through a lot of this Thread. I don't normally use complicated rigs, I use what works for me on the Water i'm fishing. I hardly ever use D-rigs, unless I believe that I can get a better presentation from it (which I think I do when using Snowman Baits).

 

The majority of my Rigs are simple Braided hooklinks with a Line Aligner or Knotless Knot.

 

Its my Rigs that are pictured on the Rig Tying Section and New To Carp Fishing Stickys, tied by my own Fair Hands. I have been using these rigs effectively for over 15years

 

In my view the only things that need changing are normally the Rig length or the Hair length.

[riverbank]

christ these posts really got me thinking

but first of all it made me think why do i use the rigs i use

i prefer short stiff rigs i have been using mantis for a good few years now

i say short anywhere between 5 and 7 inches and peeled back at least an inch from the hook. i just add putty at the gather for pop ups or ballanced hook baits.

i used to use silkworm and tryed loads of other uncoated braids at longer lenghs say 12 inches but when fishing at distance they sometimes came back with a knot in and had always felt that there wasn't any point using longer hook links as they would probably fold back on themselfs and end up near the lead anyway. but as the same with longer hair lenghs i guess would feel more natural on the pick up, but would that give the carp to much thinking time when there mouthing baits and aid rejection. this really is a mind field because theres pros and cons to all rigs stiff short long and more supple.but i also think thats the beauty of using braid as a main line it gives such a superb bite indication.you can afford to exsperiment a bit. i feel conferdent in using a stiffer material i.e. mantis in an average of 6-7 inches.maybe i should try going longer with the stiffer material. ive have to say i think longer lenghs of lead core anything up to 6-8 even 10 feet has made a difference to my catch rate compaired a group i fish with using an average of 3 feet ,that and slack lines. i don't get the dreaded bleep then nothing, which i feel is fish feeling line gets spooked. the guy i fish with uses mono fished tight to the lead and he gets i feel fish deffenatly spooking of the line.as for complicated rigs isn't enouth of a head ache trying to get these small points right.

[salokcinnodrog]

Fishing Long Braided Hooklinks can be a Nightmare, but I do have a way round the Problem and its fairly Simple. It needs to be for me to remember it and comes from Kryston in a Bottle Called Superstiff.

 

I coat my hooklinks in the Stuff, then Fold them down into manageable lengths for Casting. The Superstiff dissolves in water and the Hooklink can then be taken and as a fish takes it concertina's open.

 

The Long Hooklinks with a Running Lead and Slack Line often give amazing runs. A couple of Bleeps then a Run that just increases in speed.

[salokcinnodrog]

I switched to Combi Rigs for a Few sessions this year.

 

Amnesia as the Boom section and either Merlin or Super-Nova as the Supple section of the Hooklink and to be honest they did not outfish my standard Braided Hooklinks at all.

 

The only benefit I found was that the rig did not tangle, but since I had no Tangle problems with my Normal Braided Hooklinks it was not a Noticeable advantage.

 

Saying that I did not get much fishing in down to Personal Problems, so it deserves a Real test next year

[beeso]

my moto Keep it simple

[salokcinnodrog]

TBH my favourite bottom bait rig is fairly simple.

 

Long shank hook, fished blowback style, with a length of Rigmarole's Braid/Leader skin between the eye of the hook and the ring on the shank(to reset the hair if the rig is ejected), using Mantis(lovely stuff) and shrink tubing to turn the hook quicker. Nails 'em square in t'bottom lip!

 

If you don't get the gist, it's in CARPology this month, but I was using it for a while before then, got a mate whos 'in the know '

 

 

I would not say the BlowBack rigs are simple. The simplest rigs are Knotless Knotted with a Hair. From that you can change most things easily, the hooklink length or the hair length.

Then add into that the Mantis, that is not a "basic" braid. It makes Combination rigs easier to tie, so I would not class it as simple.

[sharpy86]

Been using snakebite for a few sessions...Fished using a stiff section with a supple section near the hook (Long shank) with a line alinger made from shrink tubing.

 

Tbh..i havn't had a carp on it. Plenty of tench, which is why i'm going to carry on using it as they are 'normally' more riggy than carp. However, i'm fishing over silt (The lake is pretty much covered in it), and from what i have read, using a combi style rig doesnt give a good presentation in silt. I will carry on to see if i can get results as i like to try things myself rather than have a magazine telling me what works and doesn't

[salokcinnodrog]

 

Having said that I have looked into rigs for a certain shape of fish and this could be a way of picking out individual fish, irrespective of common or mirror

 

I borrowed this quote (its only part of a reply) from the Different Strains thread, and its a subject that I've been thinking about as well.

 

There are definitely different ways of feeding from different Carp, it has come up in the past in this thread as well.

 

Some fish will suck and blow to eat their food, and others will scoop and pick up their food in the lips. Is this sucking and blowing fish going to get caught on the same rig as a fish which mouthes the bait?

 

How do you make a rig that will catch the both types of feeding.

 

Shorter rigs will catch fish that are over beds of bait, but will this same short rig catch fish feeding on this bait that are sucking the baits in? It can't be going in far enough. Is this the reason for hookpulls on some fish?

 

Or is the short rig being taken in by fish that are picking the bait up and the lead is pulling the hook down to pr1ck the fish too early?

 

On a longer rig with a good length hair ( both longer than usual) do both types of fish get caught?

 

The water I have had a problem with hookholds I was playing this week, and had takes on 2 different rigs, one again, slightly more Complicated than standard.

 

The rig that produced 3 fish was a Basic Knotless Knotted SuperNova Hooklink to ESP hook of about 20cm long. From the end of the bait I had about 10mm clearance to the shank.

 

The other rod had on a Coated Braid Snowman presentation on a Sliding ring on the shank of the hook, the ring only able to slide to the top of the shank as there was a small Fox rubber stop. I had no clearance from the bait to the ring, the hookbait was tight, no additional hair showing through the bait.

 

On both rigs the carp were hooked fairly and squarely and I had no problems with either.

 

Have I gone too Complicated to start with? Dave had a Carp on a basic Amnesia Hooklink with a mono hair.

[crayonhussy]

 

Having said that I have looked into rigs for a certain shape of fish and this could be a way of picking out individual fish, irrespective of common or mirror

 

I borrowed this quote (its only part of a reply) from the Different Strains thread, and its a subject that I've been thinking about as well.

 

There are definitely different ways of feeding from different Carp, it has come up in the past in this thread as well.

 

Some fish will suck and blow to eat their food, and others will scoop and pick up their food in the lips. Is this sucking and blowing fish going to get caught on the same rig as a fish which mouthes the bait?

 

How do you make a rig that will catch the both types of feeding.

 

Shorter rigs will catch fish that are over beds of bait, but will this same short rig catch fish feeding on this bait that are sucking the baits in? It can't be going in far enough. Is this the reason for hookpulls on some fish?

 

Or is the short rig being taken in by fish that are picking the bait up and the lead is pulling the hook down to pr1ck the fish too early?

 

On a longer rig with a good length hair ( both longer than usual) do both types of fish get caught?

 

The water I have had a problem with hookholds I was playing this week, and had takes on 2 different rigs, one again, slightly more Complicated than standard.

 

The rig that produced 3 fish was a Basic Knotless Knotted SuperNova Hooklink to ESP hook of about 20cm long. From the end of the bait I had about 10mm clearance to the shank.

 

The other rod had on a Coated Braid Snowman presentation on a Sliding ring on the shank of the hook, the ring only able to slide to the top of the shank as there was a small Fox rubber stop. I had no clearance from the bait to the ring, the hookbait was tight, no additional hair showing through the bait.

 

On both rigs the carp were hooked fairly and squarely and I had no problems with either.

 

Have I gone too Complicated to start with? Dave had a Carp on a basic Amnesia Hooklink with a mono hair.

 

Personnely I think the carp eating your bait has much more say so on whether or not you hook it. I think rigs only make a slight difference in comparrison.

[salokcinnodrog]

 

Having said that I have looked into rigs for a certain shape of fish and this could be a way of picking out individual fish, irrespective of common or mirror

 

I borrowed this quote (its only part of a reply) from the Different Strains thread, and its a subject that I've been thinking about as well.

 

There are definitely different ways of feeding from different Carp, it has come up in the past in this thread as well.

 

Some fish will suck and blow to eat their food, and others will scoop and pick up their food in the lips. Is this sucking and blowing fish going to get caught on the same rig as a fish which mouthes the bait?

 

How do you make a rig that will catch the both types of feeding.

 

Shorter rigs will catch fish that are over beds of bait, but will this same short rig catch fish feeding on this bait that are sucking the baits in? It can't be going in far enough. Is this the reason for hookpulls on some fish?

 

Or is the short rig being taken in by fish that are picking the bait up and the lead is pulling the hook down to pr1ck the fish too early?

 

On a longer rig with a good length hair ( both longer than usual) do both types of fish get caught?

 

The water I have had a problem with hookholds I was playing this week, and had takes on 2 different rigs, one again, slightly more Complicated than standard.

 

The rig that produced 3 fish was a Basic Knotless Knotted SuperNova Hooklink to ESP hook of about 20cm long. From the end of the bait I had about 10mm clearance to the shank.

 

The other rod had on a Coated Braid Snowman presentation on a Sliding ring on the shank of the hook, the ring only able to slide to the top of the shank as there was a small Fox rubber stop. I had no clearance from the bait to the ring, the hookbait was tight, no additional hair showing through the bait.

 

On both rigs the carp were hooked fairly and squarely and I had no problems with either.

 

Have I gone too Complicated to start with? Dave had a Carp on a basic Amnesia Hooklink with a mono hair.

 

Personnely I think the carp eating your bait has much more say so on whether or not you hook it. I think rigs only make a slight difference in comparrison.

 

That may be true, but there may come a point on "Pressured" waters where you may need to go more advanced. I know I keep going on about you can change the hooklink length, and the hair length, but there may be a point where you could need to do something different.

 

I have had to play around with rigs on this Fishery that I started fishing last year. Its not always to confuse the Carp either, it could be to avoid the weed or bottom make-up.

[boots_n_braces]

salokcinnodrog- once more your a genious i didnt think of using superstiff to create the "sliding hooklink" effect! now i feel like a tool lol unfortunately its normally the simplest tricks that are missed!

 

As i said in another post i now use a reverse combi rig with stiff mono for the first inch ish coming away from the hook, it acts exactly the same shrink tube but is muuuch less conspicuous and lighter aswell.

 

Another beautifully simple tip i saw in a tony miles article the other month was to tie the hair a bit to long and then wrap it once or twice around the shank and pva it in place so it doesnt tangle on the cast. as soon as you put the slightest pulling force on the bait the hook flips and digs in every single time! takes some confidence to get used to but im on my 3rd week of using it this weekend and it looks promising!

[salokcinnodrog]

salokcinnodrog- once more your a genious i didnt think of using superstiff to create the "sliding hooklink" effect! now i feel like a tool lol unfortunately its normally the simplest tricks that are missed!

 

As i said in another post i now use a reverse combi rig with stiff mono for the first inch ish coming away from the hook, it acts exactly the same shrink tube but is muuuch less conspicuous and lighter aswell.

 

Another beautifully simple tip i saw in a tony miles article the other month was to tie the hair a bit to long and then wrap it once or twice around the shank and pva it in place so it doesnt tangle on the cast. as soon as you put the slightest pulling force on the bait the hook flips and digs in every single time! takes some confidence to get used to but im on my 3rd week of using it this weekend and it looks promising!

 

I remember reading Simon Crow saying about having the hair wrapped around the shank in the past as well, and there is me making sure that I get mine perfectly central.

 

Thanks for the credit for the Superstiff tip, but I must admit its down to one of the Original Genius's for the idea; Jim Gibbinson. He called it The Concertina Rig.

 

I'm more of a sponge for information, it goes in and get's remembered for when I need it.

I can't think of many things I come up with first, maybe that's what I need to change to become a Famous Angler?

 

 

Nick

[charlieg]

I can't think of many things I come up with first, maybe that's what I need to change to become a Famous Angler?

 

Nick you could easily be a famous angler and i would love to read articles by you. They would be of quality and honesty, not something you get much of these days.

[salokcinnodrog]

I can't think of many things I come up with first, maybe that's what I need to change to become a Famous Angler?

 

Nick you could easily be a famous angler and i would love to read articles by you. They would be of quality and honesty, not something you get much of these days.

 

Thank You,

A post that brought a smile to my face and a tear to the eye

 

Just don't tell anyone else about the tears, I'll claim I was tired