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bait boats exposed


gravelrun1
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Just another thought to put a different slant on things,,one could argue the use of bait boats means people become less innovative since the user maybe less likely to advance their rigs to overcome certain situations as they believe their standard rig will outperform others because it is dropped by a boat and this alone will equal perfect presentation.

A reasonable carp angler very rarely suffers a tangle during the casting, it is therefore logical that any tangling occurs as the rig falls through the water, now correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt a rig dropped by a boat also have as much chance of tangling whilst it falls through the water bearing in mind someone said they can use tangly rigs cos they've got a boat? :) How do boat owners know their rigs are better presented than a casted bait? to me thats just speculation and assumption, until extensive comparisons using underwater cameras etc provide scientific evidence to prove/disprove one way or the other.. :)

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Nick12345 - "U can use heavier leads and much shorter links overs softer bottoms whereas casters (who hit the bottom with larger force) would have to compensate for this by lengthening links, reducing weight and using tangle free materials."

 

I think you will find that a 3 ounce lead cast out will sink at exactly the same rate as a 3 ounce lead dropped by a boat as they both have the same mass and resistance as they fall through the water :wink:

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Just a thought,

 

Never used a bait boat, just wondering you users still use a marker? :oops: ?

just curious as that throws the whole cast spooking fish theory out the window, Thats unless your fishing to obvious features but i still like to get a marker out or lead about there too :wink:

 

slacker

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Tangles:

 

Dropping a rig from a boat will result in the whole lot landing in one big heap. to straightne it, you've got to move it right? In doing so, you risk picking up debris on the hook. Not good.

 

You cast to the same spot, feather it, and the rig lands ina stright line, you can let it settle, job done.

 

Spooking fish:

 

You cast once maybe twice, and yep, you're gonna spook fish if they're in the area, but they'll be back cos they're probably used to leads landing all around them, and may even takes it as a sign of food to come. (i caught a fish just the other week where I was still baiting up with a stick so baits landing on their heads doesnt always mean they spook and move to the other end of the lake)

 

Drive a boat over theor head and they aint gonna like it much either.....difference is that they dont see the too often, and they noise they make is probably exteremly loud underwater.

 

Baiting up:

 

Scattered baits by stick/caty/spod will naturally be spread about reasonably well. Even the most astute angler will spread baist to a degree, and this gets the fish moveing around searching for food instead of sittin on the spot.

 

Drop a kilo on one spot and it just dont look right does it?! The fish dont have to move around, so there's more chance of you being 'done'

 

Fishing to snags:

 

Makes no odds how u get ur rig there, you should always make an effort to 'test out' the snag before fishing to it. If it's bad, dont fish there. Using a boat to drop it in the snag is just plain stupid, at least when you cast it there you'll get an idea of where you landed by the feeling you get from the lead.

 

Overhanging bushes:

 

You can cast there just as well as a boat can put you there, just use a setup that allows the rig to slide up the line and aim for the lead to clip the edge of the bush. Boats are no advantage.

 

Distance:

 

Fishing at 400 yrds is not needed in 99% of situations. If you cant cast there, dont fish there, simple as.

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Tangles:

 

Dropping a rig from a boat will result in the whole lot landing in one big heap. to straightne it, you've got to move it right? In doing so, you risk picking up debris on the hook. Not good.

 

You cast to the same spot, feather it, and the rig lands ina stright line, you can let it settle, job done.

 

Spooking fish:

 

You cast once maybe twice, and yep, you're gonna spook fish if they're in the area, but they'll be back cos they're probably used to leads landing all around them, and may even takes it as a sign of food to come. (i caught a fish just the other week where I was still baiting up with a stick so baits landing on their heads doesnt always mean they spook and move to the other end of the lake)

 

Drive a boat over theor head and they aint gonna like it much either.....difference is that they dont see the too often, and they noise they make is probably exteremly loud underwater.

 

Baiting up:

 

Scattered baits by stick/caty/spod will naturally be spread about reasonably well. Even the most astute angler will spread baist to a degree, and this gets the fish moveing around searching for food instead of sittin on the spot.

 

Drop a kilo on one spot and it just dont look right does it?! The fish dont have to move around, so there's more chance of you being 'done'

 

Fishing to snags:

 

Makes no odds how u get ur rig there, you should always make an effort to 'test out' the snag before fishing to it. If it's bad, dont fish there. Using a boat to drop it in the snag is just plain stupid, at least when you cast it there you'll get an idea of where you landed by the feeling you get from the lead.

 

Overhanging bushes:

 

You can cast there just as well as a boat can put you there, just use a setup that allows the rig to slide up the line and aim for the lead to clip the edge of the bush. Boats are no advantage.

 

Distance:

 

Fishing at 400 yrds is not needed in 99% of situations. If you cant cast there, dont fish there, simple as.

Tangles,

 

Alot of the time I specificaly fish soft braid and allow it to fall in a heap :wink: and if using coated braid/stiff link it kicks away from the lead regardless of how it gets there.

 

Spooking,

Fish the same as ducks are not in the least frightened by bait boats

Baiting,

 

A lot of anglers swear by tight baiting at times.

 

Snags and Bushes fall into the same catagory,

 

When you cast to bushes and snags etc you clip the outside edge,eg overhanging willow bushes might extend 10 feet from the bank,your bait will sit on the outside edge.with a boat the bait can be within 10 inches of the bank in the clear water under the bush,etc etc.

 

Distance,

 

I know stacks of waters where you realy have no choice but to fish at distance[see my post "long range"] mires where you have to cast enything from 50-100 yard just to get to water thats fishable,because its 6 inches deep in water and 3 feet of silt.

And lets be honest about this one,most anglers would need a boat to fish a mark 150 yards away,and before you say practice,a lot of people will never with any amount of practice cast that far.

Let me just state for the record I do not own a baitboat,and Im not telling people to get one.

However the fact is they do make carp fishing easyer,safer,etc and I have used and will use one again if needed.

They are not needed for most situations.

But to come up with all the reasons in the world not to use one is simply not right,exactly the same as coming up with all the reasons to use one isnt right.

It is and has to remain a personal dissision made at the time,for cetain anging situations,theres no right or wrongs about them.

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old carper u really r getting old. your telling me a lead smashing into the water at 70 mph will lye flat on the bottom in the same way as a lead just dropped from a boat on the surface. YOUR NUTS

 

 

your going to disturb the lake anyway im saying bait boat users do it less and can sit on their hands as they know the rig is flat and lying well. however casters may feel they are tangled which causes them to disturb and recast alot more often than boat users.

 

when you get your spods out it sounds like thunder.

 

Dropping a bait from a boat is like hand placing a rig attach a stringer to straighten your hooklink and there you go NO TANGLES or a HEEP of braid.

 

U think the boat users have made your lake harder but dont you think that may have sommething to do with the fish wising up.(dont fish there cant accuratley comment)

 

Also if u read my posts i have clearly stated that dropping the rig and then using the catatpult can gain a decent spread better than anything else and also enables better rig set-ups

 

also i read somewhere an angler was slagging off tightly baited patches take it back 5 years and thats what you lot would of been winging about. the main argument was boats r cheating and enable accurate baiting unfairly.

 

if i can deposite an envelope sized bait easily at 100 yards+ thats a big edge, especially over a spread out messy area where your relying on luck and the fish to feed hard enough to take your bait.

 

Its gaugeing the fish and how they r feeding a spread out spot will not always catch

 

Again a boat is a tool for baiting and using it accordingly to how the fish are feeding and what your lake demands is the a proper skill.

 

 

all i ever hear is "drop a kilo here" who says all boat users fill there boats with just a kilo of boilies its the STERIOTYPICAL ATTITUDE again.

 

And if its so bad and the tactics never works why r u winging.

 

Please tell me ?

 

 

old carper how can u say the majority of tangles occur when the rig is in the water and not in the cast.

 

and then say u need underwater comparisons and science to prove what i say is true!!

surley your opening yourself up to critism and contridicting yourself.

 

Underwater the braid etc cannot manouvre around as easily as air and will not usually tangle on the drop/decent. This will never happen if a counter weight (bag stringer is added). as the hookbait is kept parted.

 

On the cast however it is possible for the hooklink to wrap around the leader, line or leadcore and tangle up.

The addition of a stringer or stick adds weight to the hooklink and straightens the hooklink out keeping it away from the lead so it lands straightish.

 

what can a rig tangle on ?

A carp angler should never have a tangle, if u reel in and ur tangled its no good you need to know your effective.

it either happens on the retrieve around some depris, sticks etc or in flight

 

there is only one thing it gets tangled on and thats the leader or leadcore or the hooklink tangles with the hook.

 

BOTH can combated by a PVA stringer or bag to keep the hooklink straight and sperate the leader/leadcore. so it cannot wrap

 

To protect the hook and hooklink again a stringer will keep it straight(even braid) then use foam to stop that from tangling with the link or hair.

 

I tie the hair with tape then use a nugget of foam wrapped around the hook like a book and have a stringer aswell this ensures my rig lands straightish and the hook is clean. i have not reeled in a tangle for years. NO LIE

 

{Posts edited down to 1 to try to make more sense}

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ok Nick 12345 I'll try to address each of ur points for you..but there's no need to be patronising..

1. Not all leads are shaped like bullets.

2. I use a rig designed not to tangle, whether on the cast or entry into or during the sinking phase. there is also a disolvable glue/compound used to totally stiffen the hooklength...

ur comment "there is only one thing it gets tangled on and thats the leader or leadcore or the hooklink tangles with the hook."

now surely thats at least 2 things!!!

3. All the solutions u state to aid presentation for boats are also equally applicable to casted rigs. therefore to say boats present a better bait is not proof.

4. I said during the sinking phase, I even said the lead would slow down during the first few feet as the water absorbs the initial velocity, once this occurs the lead will sink at the same rate as a boat dropped lead of the same weight.

5. underwater there is more resistance so the components of the rig are trying to fold upwards from the lead. example a running lead, the hooklink is lighter than the lead so it stands to reason the lead sinks faster, dragging the hooklink down with it, this will occur whether the lead and rig is casted or dropped by a boat.

6. I also cannot honestly remember the last time i reeled in a tangled rig.

7. if casters have no faith in the rig they are using then surely they would change it to one they are confident in. I have utmost faith in my rigs, they catch carp and are simple. I do not sit there worrying whether my hooklink is tangled as it just doesn't happen.

8. if I want a tight grouping of bait at 100yds+ i will just use pva bags or mesh, etc.

9. "old carper u really r getting old. your telling me a lead smashing into the water at 70 mph will lye flat on the bottom in the same way as a lead just dropped from a boat on the surface. YOUR NUTS"

Of course it will provided they are the same weight,,,its the law of physics, as already said once the initial velocity of the lead is absorbed on impact and maybe a couple of feet of water, it will slow down and fall through the water at the same rate as any other lead of the same weight and shape. just because it flies through the air first doesn't mean it increases in mass!!! It will not travel through the water at 70mph, the water provides more resistance than air to slow it down and quickly too, the water acts as a brake.

10. I have never said there is not a place for bait boats in the carp anglers armoury, i respect the views of others, i have never said using a boat is cheating,,,i just put forwards the reasons i don't use them and try to stimulate the thinking of others.

11. what criticism have i opened myself up to? How can you prove your rig is better presented than a casted one without the use of some scientific evidence ie using an underwater camera to compare how the rigs sit on the bottom?? Are we just meant to accept your view/opinion based on your say so, or should we be thinking anglers who try to be innovative. the only thing that could really answer which rig is better presented and from our perception therefore more appealing would be a carp

there i hope i've clarified my points,,remember these are just my opinions, I am not trying to force these upon anyone else, just trying to stimulate people to think about what they are doing. :wink:

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I have edited a series of posts down to 1.

 

Due to the Text Talk I was going to remove them, but eventually decided not to.

What may have happened at the start of this thread which is years old is no longer acceptable

Any more posts containing any text talk in will be removed.

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Watch out, the forum police are about :lol:

 

But it's just not fishing is it?!!! It's like calling trawling with nets fishing....it just aint the same....

 

lets take this argument around in another circle :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

yea but where could you draw the line ? you could say fishing with bite alarms isnt fishing because all you have to do is whack the rods out there turn your receiver on then go inside your confy bivvy on your bedchair and just sleep until you get a bite, this isnt fishing its just like sitting next to someone fishing then when they finally get a bite you snatch the rod off them and catch the fish yourself, would that count??

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as i said i was answering multiple queries

and in response

 

yes u can do exactly the same as a boat user however when u mess up u then have to spend the next few minutes messing around and placing more expensive Pva products around your rig, i dont so i save money over time(plus i never loose anything).

 

That was my point originally to whoever queried it.

I also dont leave miles of line draping from bushes and trees which ruins fishing and kills fish.

 

Old carper you are right about the depth, lead shape and its impact on the water but if you are casting to snags and margins(main use of boat) which are often shallower (maybe 1-4 ft etc) than the rest of the lake it can make a big difference.

 

the rig can only tangle with the leader as their is nothing else there. I dont see how u can come to the conclusion that your rig tangles on the drop if you have stiffened it with pva glue and foamed the end, theres no way it could catch or wrap around any of your tackle as would/should remain stiff enough to hit the bottom and give you good presentation.

 

#The rig can tangle with itself but i didn't count it so THANKS fo pointing that 1 out

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most of the points i covered and explained were fomr numerous posts eg tight baiting not all were aimed at you and if you go back and read them you will agree. i respect your scientific imput and logical thinking about presentation and as i said all my posts try to arnswer the main topic not the most recent points.

 

 

Also i asked numerous times what is text talk ?

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:) Nick12345 - "I dont see how u can come to the conclusion that your rig tangles on the drop if you have stiffened it with pva glue and foamed the end, theres no way it could catch or wrap around any of your tackle as would/should remain stiff enough to hit the bottom and give you good presentation."

Thats my point exactly, I cast my bait out and my rigs don't tangle and I obtain good presentation, equally as good as a boat dropped rig. I have never said one is better than another. granted without rig tubing etc there is a chance of the rig tangling on the drop as you put it but this was happening years ago probably way before your time and before innovative old anglers came up with the solutions modern anglers take for granted today. Without the old anglers experiences rig tubing etc would never have been put forwards as a solution to tangling. I get asked a lot by young anglers "why do my rigs tangle, or why are my hooks not setting etc" its easy to say just do it like this or that but it won't stimulate the person into thinking for themselves or to examine what really goes on with their rigs, I will always try to give rationale along with the solution.

I also believe that bait boats come into their own on fairly shallow waters, where there is maybe not enough depth to slow down a casted lead when fishing at distance, although i would try different shaped leads and see what happens. there really is no right or wrong answer when it comes down to the use of a boat, but there are definately situations when one would be advantageous and i see no problem in their use at those times. the only time, yes only time i object is when they are used in situations where it may endanger the fish ie putting a bait within snags and not next to them.Yes i know the majority of sensible boat owners wouldn't dream of doing it, but i have seen it done. :)

to be honest my biggest pet hate is people constantly messing with their bite alarms without turning the volume down.. :lol:

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I tried to say this in my last post,by pointing out various thing,it didn't work :shock:

Heres the thing,there is NO right or wrong about using bait boats,FACT.

Its just another tool and depending on whos hands its in,decides the outcome of the finnal job,FACT.

Whether you use a boat or not is your choice and nobody else's,FACT.

I would have thought by now that even to an idiot it is plainly visable that the two side are not going to agree..

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Can someone please tell me why bait boats are banned on certain waters??? Nobody has really justified/explained these bans to me. The only reason i can think of is to stop certain locations of a lake being fished. I guess the reasoning is it leaves areas of a lake accessible to the fish, but not accessible to casted bait, to use as sancturys for recovering etc. I really can't think of any other reasons...maybe I've answered my own question :lol: ...

we have a ban on a local private water of using any hooks larger than size 10 :? I've asked a bailiff why,,and guess what,,,he said he didn't know!!!! They also limit the length of a braided hooklink to just 6"..No explanation, just another rule. :shock:

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Can someone please tell me why bait boats are banned on certain waters??? Nobody has really justified/explained these bans to me. The only reason i can think of is to stop certain locations of a lake being fished. I guess the reasoning is it leaves areas of a lake accessible to the fish, but not accessible to casted bait, to use as sancturys for recovering etc. I really can't think of any other reasons...maybe I've answered my own question :lol: ...

we have a ban on a local private water of using any hooks larger than size 10 :? I've asked a bailiff why,,and guess what,,,he said he didn't know!!!! They also limit the length of a braided hooklink to just 6"..No explanation, just another rule. :shock:

 

I once fished a water where bait boats were allowed, I didn't use one at the time, no need, then all of a sudden bait boats were banned. The reason being that some users thought it was great to poach other anglers swims,which in turn caused conflict. The idiots should have been banned in my opinion and not boats. As said before, in the right hands bait boats can prove to be an asset. In the wrong hands bait boats can be a hazard and a right pain. Fish welfare and safety should always be first and foremost and with what I've seen in the past, with some idiots who used boats, this isn't the case.

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me personally i dislike bait boats like has been mentioned it takes the fun out of fishing totally.skill in casting is a gradual thing to learn what happens if it runs out of power and you have no idea how to cast properly? waste of time and money.never had this sort of stuff years ago and people managed so whats changed now? old school is definately the only way forward!

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Can someone please tell me why bait boats are banned on certain waters??? Nobody has really justified/explained these bans to me. The only reason i can think of is to stop certain locations of a lake being fished. I guess the reasoning is it leaves areas of a lake accessible to the fish, but not accessible to casted bait, to use as sancturys for recovering etc. I really can't think of any other reasons...maybe I've answered my own question :lol: ...

we have a ban on a local private water of using any hooks larger than size 10 :? I've asked a bailiff why,,and guess what,,,he said he didn't know!!!! They also limit the length of a braided hooklink to just 6"..No explanation, just another rule. :shock:

 

Perhaps because the match anglers running it hate Carpers?

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